new greater dispel

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William Steele
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new greater dispel

Post by William Steele » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:33 am

is the new greater dispel now pointedly better than mord's disjunction? i know mord's disjunction also has a breach effect, but... at high levels, removing all effects is much better than removing 6, in every case.

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:58 am

A level 30 caster using Greater Dispelling against another level 30 caster will have a 40% chance to dispel an effect. That's a little worse than a coin toss. If the average caster has 10 effects, then on average four of those will be removed at random.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction will have no chance of dispelling an effect, but it will strip the top six magical defenses.

The difference between the two is that Greater Dispelling has greater potential, but Mordenkainen's Disjunction has greater reliability. The latter also goes after a mage's best spelldueling defenses first.

So, it's situational. If I were fighting a mundane, I'd go for Greater Dispelling. If I were fighting a mage, Mordenkainen's Disjunction every time. As for half-casters, it doesn't matter which one you pick. Both will decimate them, thanks to NWN's asinine way of determining dispel resistance.
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by William Steele » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:15 am

i'm not sure i agree. a 9th level spell slot for what's only a little better than a 6th level spell slot (spell breach is still a thing). the important spells to remove would be taken off by greater spell breach anyway. and this is pure caster vs pure caster.

most non-pure casters are going to only take between 15-20ish levels of caster class (to maximize potential of other classes), unless they're just dipping into rogue for 3 levels. so if a level 27wis/3rog casts mords on a level 22cleric/5fighter/3rog, he's more likely to do less than if he cast greater dispelling. or am i mistaken?

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:29 am

Mord: d20 + 20 vs 22 + 12 means a 30% chance to dispel. Plus six free strips.

G. Disp: d20 + 27 vs 22 + 12 means a 65% chance to dispel.

If Average Joe Mage has 10 effects going, (all of which are breachable, in this example) Mord will remove nine effects on average and G. Disp. will remove 6-7 on average.

It really depends on whether the buffs in question can be breached.

With that in mind, I'll revise my recommendation: G. Disp. for mundanes, G. Breach for mages, and Mord for half-casters.
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Ecstatic » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:59 am

The other reason to pack a mords is if you're dealing with a spell resistant target in a situation where it is critical to sink your spells without failure.
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by William Steele » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:41 am

seems to make sense. just seems odd that the 9th level spell is a step down (in that one spot). normally with more spell levels it's better in all aspects, and~ does more stuff.

does the math change when abj focuses are included?

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:48 am

For the above example, with ESF: Abjuration, Mord would have a 60% chance, and G. Disp. would have a 95% chance. Pretty much equal footing for effectiveness against Average Joe Mage, but Mord still has the benefit of a guarantee against certain very powerful effects.
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Mithreas » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:07 pm

I was torn between adding a breach or two to GD, or just uncapping it. I decided that uncapping it opened up a different strategic option so made more sense.

Sure, it means Mord's isn't an upgrade in every direction (for epic casters). But as discussed above, there are still reasons to use it.
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Peppermint » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:59 pm

Are you considering restricting this to just warlocks? Because seriously that's kind of crazy, yo.

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by zeylin17 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:20 pm

10 Sr drop 6 breached spells + the chance to dispel. vs. the chance to only dispel... I'd always drop a mord first. Then follow it up accordingly. In a 1 on 1 situation.

If two people had access to Mords and G.D. then drop your G.D. after a Mord hits. That would maximize effectiveness. at anyrate, at least Dispelling line has more usefulness.

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Barradoor » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:21 pm

Sorcerer wise, this is a hard decision to choose, from your 6th circle spells, you have 3 to choose. Most take Isaac's (which is a must have on all sorcs) so that leaves you two spells. True sight, being the next best. It makes you choose from a bunch of really cool spells.

Mass Haste - parties love you
Flesh to Stone - awesome statues
Tenser's Transformation - I can do fighter things too
Chain Lightning - Zap
Globe of Invulnerability - Ignore ALL the flame arrows.
Greater Stoneskin - I never take it on sorcs, but Its neat!
and Planar Binding - One of my favorite rp spells. For the clestial dog.. not the succubus.. :oops:

But for wizards, this enables them to just kinda go all out. At level 20, they'll have 4 sixth level spells, and then, a bonus of 2 6th level ones. This will let them Use all of the above spells, so defence from greater stoneskin.. dispell stuff. Have a neat summon, no flame arrows, haste your friends and then turn the enemy to stone because you can
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Yellena » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:29 pm

An important note is that Dispell have the potential of removing all kinds of magical effects, not only deffenses.
The way GD and Mord are working now, with Abjuration Focus I would aways go with GD. Not to mention the components used on Mords. Dispelling a Haste, Endurance, Bulls, See invisibility or True Seeing can be way more effective than removing some wards.
Not to mention, epic levels dispelling was aways a high arcane thing. Basically any caster with access to GD can now be an absurd dispeller. While this rewards pure caster level investment, it rewards WAY MORE the dispeller than the target, even if both are put casters.
And if you are pure caster, you won't really need to reduce SR.


Don't trust him guys! He's tricking you! He's secretly buffing clerics!!!!

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by jp.ping14 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:39 pm

I have a feeling that I will get owned by mobs once I started venturing once more. =X

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by HurinWillSmite » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:54 pm

So I guess it was just the rumor mill that told me that Mord disjunction had its breach part of the spell removed?

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Ecstatic » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:36 pm

Peppermint wrote:Are you considering restricting this to just warlocks? Because seriously that's kind of crazy, yo.
Each class has a limitation built into it currently (and arguably, it's most powerful on Warlock).

Wiz/Cleric/Druid: need to prepare the spell in advance, and spell slots are fairly limited
Sorc: as mentioned earlier, need to run some hard choices on their level 6 slots
Bard: issues similar to sorc
WM/FvS: dispelling puts them on cooldown
Warlock: Spammable, but needs a ranged touch attack to hit. AoE dispel is unchanged.
TANSTAAFL


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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Mithreas » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:48 pm

Actually... with clerics being the class that relies most on its combat buffs... I think they lose more than they gain *nod*
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:50 pm

Yes. Clerics were buffed. However, Clerics, along with everyone else, are now easier to dispel. I know what I'll be doing every time I see one.
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Ecstatic » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:13 pm

They're also the casting class most likely to multiclass somewhat heavily to optimize their combat potential.
TANSTAAFL

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by vaclavc » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:21 pm

I think that uncapping GD is an interesting change which brings lots of new tactical considerations into the combat. I'm really looking forward to how it turns up!

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by aaa3 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:45 pm

From nwn wiki:
To remove an effect, the caster makes a dispel check of 1d20, +1 per caster level (to a maximum of +40) against a DC of 11 12 + the spell effect's caster level. In addition to its ability to dispel effects, this spell also strips a single enemy of up to 6 magical defenses or a group of enemies of two spell protections each. Finally, the spell will lower the SR of all creatures within the area of effect by 10.

So a caster will get always full caster level for dispel purposes in case of Disjunction. Same as GD now, but in addition also will lower SR and remove instantly certain wards.

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by The Rambling Midget » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:33 pm

As far as I'm aware, Mordenkainen's Disjunction has not been uncapped. It should still have the +20 maximum for dispelling. (not counting Abjuration focus)
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by aaa3 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:09 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote:As far as I'm aware, Mordenkainen's Disjunction has not been uncapped. It should still have the +20 maximum for dispelling. (not counting Abjuration focus)
That is not mentioned anywhere, so i supposed it works as supposed by nwn wiki?

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Re: new greater dispel

Post by The Rambling Midget » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:15 pm

aaa3 wrote:
The Rambling Midget wrote:As far as I'm aware, Mordenkainen's Disjunction has not been uncapped. It should still have the +20 maximum for dispelling. (not counting Abjuration focus)
That is not mentioned anywhere, so i supposed it works as supposed by nwn wiki?
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Re: new greater dispel

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:06 am

I'm curious if we're going to see other spell changes enter the mix. It'd be great if we could see an overhaul of some of the level 5+ spell circles (where certain spells undoubtedly begin to dominate the selection process).
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