Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:07 am

Some clarification might be good. I figure the behaviour they want to curb is players using the playerlist or meta means to avoid settlement officials. But if you play normally, just not in the settlement you wronged, that is probably fine? Because you're not going out of your way to be unavailable. You're just RPing elsewhere. If someone wanted to track you down, they could.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:37 am

The new ruling makes more practical sense IC than the previous method.

The rule existing is an OOC courtesy to the player of the exiled character. It isn't a hard, unchangeable IC law that you must be notified first, it's 'standard practice' put in place by every government in the server in order to follow the OOC rules and have the exiles actually stick.

This was never really meant to become a game of cat and mouse to catch the person so you could exile them. It's not that you can't have that RP if all sides agree- it's that taking such an avenue is subverting the intended spirit of the rule, which isn't to give the player a shield from exile by avoiding officials, but to guarantee that they are involved in that narrative process rather than having it sprung on them, say when they come limping back to town out of healing supplies to find their access denied (which I have, ironically IMO, seen happen as a result of the cat and mouse game).
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:44 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:07 am
Some clarification might be good. I figure the behaviour they want to curb is players using the playerlist or meta means to avoid settlement officials. But if you play normally, just not in the settlement you wronged, that is probably fine? Because you're not going out of your way to be unavailable. You're just RPing elsewhere. If someone wanted to track you down, they could.
That's absolutly fine.

And if you're not avaiable because of happenstance - that is absolutly fine.

The onus is still on the official to reach out and find you. But if you're making it deliberatly difficult/impossible for them to do do that - in order to prevent exile/Eviction - then we may step in.

Ask yourself this - If an offical of a settlment is trying to find you, and you know it's for exile - are you icly avoiding them because of that, or some other reason?

If it's just to avoid the exile rp - don't. That's meta.
If it is both, or for some other reason (You fear they may kill your character) - then why not give them ooc permission to waver the rule? That way they're just hunting you down for legit IC reasons.
But if you want to try and play cat and mouse- with the exile and murder happening at the same time - Talk to them about it! Maybe they'll be ok wtih that OOC!

Again - no one is saying that you have to run into said settlment, open armed and screaming GIVE ME THE EXILE RP! But if you're obviously making attempts to avoid officials and efforts for said rp to happen, we will step in.

This isn't a New Ruling, this is us saying that we'll be helping players deal with the abuses of an current ruling.
mean I absolutely understand if a DM wants or need to assist in delivering notice of exile but framing it like someone staying away is violating the rules is something else. Whether IC or OOC it's also very easy to think someone is avoiding you when they're not even thinking of you at all. I wouldn't say that shouldn't be reported if a leader is frustrated that they can't deliver the exile notice but I'm unclear what the obligation of the exiled character is supposed to be here, or what kind of trouble they'll be in if they play it carefully and don't stroll into a settlement who's out for their blood.
I may be repeating myself here.

1) We will be doing checks to see that it isn'tr a case of the character just 'not being around' or 'being around at odd times' or 'being in odd places' - We will ensure that pcs are icly/oocly avoiding officials for the rp. So it's very much in the interst of Officials to follow ALL POSSIBLE methods and attempts to meet with the player first.
2) I think I explained that above, but again - we just ask that you act ICly and - if there is another reason ICly why you absolutly would ignore all contact by the official - consider allowing them to waver that ooc rule. Consider also that you can meet up with officials in other places, like the Shadovar Tradepost, which are neutral.
3) I don't want to make a blanket statement on what happens if people do metagame this constantly - because honestly it's going to be very case by case. I generally think there are two sorts of 'misbehaviors' on arelith - One is 'Rule Broken' as in - an actual rule broken to make actual players upset. Another is 'Bad Roleplay' - which is where no rules were neccesarly hugely broken, but we're seeing some poor roleplay in place. The latter is generally punished more with a lowering of RPR. To me this falls generally more in the latter catagory.
I would imagine that in most cases, someone who's knowingly and obviously avoding exile/eviction rp will face no punishment - but said exile/eviction will be pushed through without the need for interactive roleplay, though I would likely think less of them in their quality as an rper. In cases where they've done it multiple times, or in particularly poor sportsmanlike ways (e.g. logging right in front of the official as they walk up towards them) we may look atsomething a little more serious in response. It's very much case by case.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by WanderingPoet » Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:53 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:44 am
Ask yourself this - If an offical of a settlment is trying to find you, and you know it's for exile - are you icly avoiding them because of that, or some other reason?
Given that it's IC knowledge that they have to approach you, there is good reason to assume it is for IC reasons.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:44 am
If it's just to avoid the exile rp - don't. That's meta.
If it is both, or for some other reason (You fear they may kill your character) - then why not give them ooc permission to waver the rule? That way they're just hunting you down for legit IC reasons.
But if you want to try and play cat and mouse- with the exile and murder happening at the same time - Talk to them about it! Maybe they'll be ok wtih that OOC!

Again - no one is saying that you have to run into said settlment, open armed and screaming GIVE ME THE EXILE RP! But if you're obviously making attempts to avoid officials and efforts for said rp to happen, we will step in.

This isn't a New Ruling, this is us saying that we'll be helping players deal with the abuses of an current ruling.
If it isn't a new ruling, then it's definitely a change in how it's enforced. An IC action has an OOC punishment.

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:44 am
1) We will be doing checks to see that it isn'tr a case of the character just 'not being around' or 'being around at odd times' or 'being in odd places' - We will ensure that pcs are icly/oocly avoiding officials for the rp. So it's very much in the interst of Officials to follow ALL POSSIBLE methods and attempts to meet with the player first.
2) I think I explained that above, but again - we just ask that you act ICly and - if there is another reason ICly why you absolutly would ignore all contact by the official - consider allowing them to waver that ooc rule. Consider also that you can meet up with officials in other places, like the Shadovar Tradepost, which are neutral.
3) I don't want to make a blanket statement on what happens if people do metagame this constantly - because honestly it's going to be very case by case. I generally think there are two sorts of 'misbehaviors' on arelith - One is 'Rule Broken' as in - an actual rule broken to make actual players upset. Another is 'Bad Roleplay' - which is where no rules were neccesarly hugely broken, but we're seeing some poor roleplay in place. The latter is generally punished more with a lowering of RPR. To me this falls generally more in the latter catagory.
I would imagine that in most cases, someone who's knowingly and obviously avoding exile/eviction rp will face no punishment - but said exile/eviction will be pushed through without the need for interactive roleplay, though I would likely think less of them in their quality as an rper. In cases where they've done it multiple times, or in particularly poor sportsmanlike ways (e.g. logging right in front of the official as they walk up towards them) we may look atsomething a little more serious in response. It's very much case by case.
Calling this metagaming is entirely unfair and honestly a disservice to those trying to react to IC events for IC reasons; not just the one who you're slapping the exile on but anyone they've brought into the RP. Are there players that avoid it for OOC reasons in order to continue to terrorize an area? Of course; there are naughty players out there. However, we, as a community, need to get away from the automatic assumption that people are inherently 'out to get you' OOC; out to make player's lives difficult or ruin people's fun. If people behave entirely IC they shouldn't be punished for it and have their RP shut down because any one individual on the opposing side doesn't like it (regardless of how many that do).

This would be the equivalent to using the death button on a character because they ran/teleported away from PVP. After all they 'metagamed' the rule that there has to be RP before PvP.

Except, this is entirely IC; it is a well known IC fact that exiles must be done face to face or the paper work doesn't go through (for mysterious reasons). Thus it's entirely reasonable IC for someone who finds out they are to be exiled to then avoid those people that could exile them. So in-fact, OOCly slapping the exile button because someone reacted reasonably IC is worse than just straight up killing characters who teleport away from PvP; as at least the knowledge of the face to face communication is an IC knowledge.

So I return to my original point; if the DMs don't want people to react meaningfully to exile RP (that is; the DMs will step in if you don't RP a specific way), then why even have an RP requirement, why not make it possible to exile without being face to face and reduce players headaches on both sides?

EDIT: To clarify, none of the above suggests or encourages people to avoid someone OOCly. Only that the IC stays IC. The only requirement for an exile is to say "Joe, you're exiled.". My point is that as long as both sides are putting in an effort to make a story then it shouldn't be shut down just because of some OOC rule.

EDIT #2: I spoke with GrumpyCat privately, we came to an understanding. The issue is that the IC reasoning is in itself flawed and wrong; so using that to defend IC actions is wrong by extension. In the end - we both agree that both sides need to put effort into the RP and making it fun! We both agreed that the example below (about AFKing to avoid interaction) was metagaming, as well.
Last edited by WanderingPoet on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:58 pm

Given that it's IC knowledge that they have to approach you, there is good reason to assume it is for IC reasons.
No, it's an OOC rule which players (understandably and fully acceptably) make ic reasons for, for immersion, but it is not technically IC.
If it isn't a new ruling, then it's definitely a change in how it's enforced. An IC action has an OOC punishment.
Being exiled is an IN CHARACTER punishment. If you are wavering your right to rp by abusing the rules that come with that, then the rules should no longer apply to you.
Calling this metagaming is entirely unfair and honestly a disservice to those trying to react to IC events for IC reasons; not just the one who you're slapping the exile on but anyone they've brought into the RP. Are there players that avoid it for OOC reasons in order to continue to terrorize an area? Of course; there are naughty players out there. However, we, as a community, need to get away from the automatic assumption that people are inherently 'out to get you' OOC; out to make player's lives difficult or ruin people's fun. If people behave entirely IC they shouldn't be punished for it and have their RP shut down because any one individual on the opposing side doesn't like it (regardless of how many that do).
You appear to have missed this point:
We will be doing checks to see that it isn'tr a case of the character just 'not being around' or 'being around at odd times' or 'being in odd places' - We will ensure that pcs are icly/oocly avoiding officials for the rp. So it's very much in the interst of Officials to follow ALL POSSIBLE methods and attempts to meet with the player first.
The onus is still on the settlment leaders/officials to find the person to exile. I'm not saying that you have to charge up to meet them as soon as you susspect your character is going to be exiled. But if that is the entire reason you are avoiding themis to avoid exile rp then... yes... you are metagaming.
This would be the equivalent to using the death button on a character because they ran/teleported away from PVP. After all they 'metagamed' the rule that there has to be RP before PvP.
Couple of points of Interest
*The hostile side is obliged to OFFER roleplay in a pvp situaiton, if the other person ignores it by say, running away, warding up, immedatly activating a lense - they are free to respond via mechanical attacks, even if person A) has not given a response.
* So we generally say you should not attack someone who is obviously AFK. Let's a... paladin met a known bandit on the surface. The bandit is just standing there, doing nothing. The Paladin says 'Ho Bandit! I have heard of your wicked ways!' The bandit just keeps standing there. The paladin waits ten minutes. Abruptly the Bandit is yoinked away by allies.
According to your logic, this is an entirely reasonable action to take. Just pretend to be AFK for ages, refuse to respond to anyone,and wait for your mait to yoink you away.
According to me (and I think any other member of the DM team) this is blatent metagaming. It's not In Character Knowledge that if you stand really still and refuse to talk to anyone, you can go and do what you want. And yes, if I caught someone doing this I WOULD press the death button on them - or remove the amount of xp they'd get from actually dying to the fight.
Except, this is entirely IC; it is a well known IC fact that exiles must be done face to face or the paper work doesn't go through (for mysterious reasons). Thus it's entirely reasonable IC for someone who finds out they are to be exiled to then avoid those people that could exile them. So in-fact, OOCly slapping the exile button because someone reacted reasonably IC is worse than just straight up killing characters who teleport away from PvP; as at least the knowledge of the face to face communication is an IC knowledge.
You've just said it here

FOR MYSTERIOUS REASONS - is the meta.

The 'mysterious reasons' is that it's ooc rules to enable fun and good gameplay and avoid abuses by settlment owners. The MYSTERIOUS REASONS is the part that you're metagaming. Without this point, why wouldn't settlment owners just exile you whenever? They dont' because of teh MYSTERIOUS REASONS which, as I said, is DMs, and taking into account our power is Metagaming!
This too shall pass.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by -XXX- » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:26 pm

Personally, I'd be inclined to consider an instance in which a single player is enabled to use ruleslawyering in order to hinder the RP of the elected ruling ~faction~ to be more unfair than an instance of having the RAW being weaved in favor of the group of players at the expense of the cheeky individual in such cases.

Does your character own a quarter in a settlement ruled by an opposing faction? Cool!
It'd be also good to acknowledge the possibility of eviction if they find out about it.
Using OOC means to "wait out" their term hoping things'll change with the next election seems like a bad form to me.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Ork » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:31 pm

Nothing says "screw you and your roleplayer" like refusing to engage. Really abhorrent behavior.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by strong yeet » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am

If you intentionally avoid interaction with someone because they are going to take your house or whatever, you are the bad guy

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Dreams » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:56 am

There is a massive opportunity for people to become messengers of the law and serve warrants/exiles/pariahs here. Share the power around. If people misuse it, it will lead to an excellent story in game!

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:01 pm

Hiya. We've been having an issue with someone coming into the Halls at low activity times and pvping everyone - when no officials are on. I'd like to exile him, but obviously we can't as he just dies then leaves. How should we approach this?

Obviously no one has the sense to shout "YOU'RE EXILED" before we kill him and not everyone remembers to keep subdual on. Would doing so even suffice?

I should add that he has stopped recently so this isn't urgent. But I gather he's pvping other settlements now -- probably assuming we've exiled him already?

I was gonna message dms privately, but I realise this would be a good case for the team to clarify to the general playerbase.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:29 pm

I would suggest making someone else an official, who has the power to exile, who may be around when they attack. Someone who is on at around that time to deliver the exile - either by finding and going to the person themselves.

If you have the name of the person who is doing this...

* see if they have property, leave a note and try and draw them out
* send them speedies
* hire 'bounty hunters' to find and (if they are empowered with exile abilities) deliver the notice themselves
* Put up wanted posters for the discovery of this person
* Scry them and try and send officials to find them
* Try and summon them (once, respectfully)
*Set up eleborate traps.

Some of these points *e.g. notes and speedies) won't work for the rules, but if you're doing it it shows to us, as Dms, you're obviously putting the time and effort in to try and get this person.

If they're very obviously avoding when officials are on, and you're obviously doing some or all of the above suggestions, and have been for a few days - then come to us.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:01 pm

Thank you as always for your responses, Grumpy. I'm not happy with it, but I shall accept it!

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The Rambling Midget » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:43 pm

Hire an Assassin and give them temporary exile powers.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Nitro » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:09 am

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:43 pm
Hire an Assassin and give them temporary exile powers.
"You're exiled. From life!"

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