RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

[Skald Haldi]

Twice I have observed another player repeatedly quoting long passages from a real-world work (flipping a few words to reverse the meaning). At least 30 other players saw the same thing, since it was used as the focus at two different player-run events.

To me, this is immersion breaking - and does not credit the original work.

Is this accepted RP behavior? If so, which works are accepted? RA Salvatore? Tolkien? GRR Martin? Shakespeare? StarTrek? Anything that is no longer in copyright?

If not, what is the next step? I don't want to report the player, because I otherwise enjoy that character and the RP circumstances that surround them.

[The GrumpyCat]

This is... extremely case by case, and a tough one to rule on.

it's not really about the works that are quoted so much as the context, length, amount, and situation of their use. Ideally of course I'd love to go 'Oh you shouldn't ever be doing this ever at all!' But let's face it, we're all here to have fun, we all quote things occasionaly - I know I have sometimes.

For example if a character turned to mine with a twist of their lips and said.. 'Once more unto the breach eh?' Then I wouldn't think twice. Shakespear, pop culture ect permiates everything it's so hard to divest stuff entirely.

Likewise the occasional reference - whilst not great rp, is certainly not anything to get ones self into a twist. Sure it's a bit of a wince when someone says 'Heh Winter is coming!' Or what have you - but it's not the end of the world.

On the other hand if someone is constantly meming, or makes a habit of running around screaming LEEERROOYYYY JENKINS!!' or 'Yer a wizard Harry' for no good reason, - really immersion breaking stuff and on constant manner - that is probably worth reporting.

So if you feel that someone is continuously quoting stuff that's extremly un-immersive and problematic then do report and we'll take a look.

Again I know this is a bit of a vauge answer, but it's really not something that I think anyone can give a definitive answer to.

[Xarge VI]

I can't speak for the rules but Imo one should always strive for originality.

However we always get inspired from things we have seen, heard and read. So what is the acceptable level of plagiarism?

Personally I don't mind the occasional powerful phrase here and there, credited to some wise of the past. But you shouldn't credit them on your character. And of course it shouldn't be more than just the occasional pinch of spice.

Inspiration > mimicry

[Skibbles]

It's probably going to depend on near infinite variables, but if it looks like outright uninspired plagiarism then there's nothing wrong with reporting it.

The worst that happens is a DM responds and says it's fine, or that they'll look into it.

Going out on a limb: I'd say it's usually fine in moderation with a personal creative twist. Xarge said it best already:

Inspiration > mimicry

Sometimes a little jab at the fourth wall can make for some lighthearted and fun interactions: a well timed nod and a wink before moving on.

A few weeks ago I saw someone draw inspiration from 50 year old 4 minute Monty pythons flying circus skit, but fully adapted for the arelith setting. The concept was used as inspiration, but everything else was fitting to suit the moment perfectly. Over a dozen characters absolutely loved it.

I bet I was only the one that noticed because I spent all my time religiously watching that stuff over and over as a kid instead of star trek.

On the flip side someone could go full Patrick Stewart on me and I wouldn't even notice unless they were literally talking about phasers, wearing a red shirt, and face palming all at the same time.

[Straxus]

So as grumpy cat stated... it would entirely be based on the context, and the situation.

Someone running around only speaking in Drizzt quotes, yeah that would be one, not very original or cool to be honest. But the occasional use of anything from those or other stories, told as if they were passed down by sages... yeah I could get behind it, it is a part of this world after all, and it is not as if it didn't happen.

It is the same reason drow are restricted to the underdark, and very closely monitored on almost every server I have ever played. (With exception of one, and believe me, it got old quick)
Everyone would be making a Drizzt character.

It really boils down to how much info you are saying your character knows IG.

As for other works outside the scope of D&D (game of thrones, star trek, and what have you)
I again think it is more what is the context. Are you quoting it as though your character is The Mountain, saying every quote he made in the show... that should be obvious.

[Straxus]

Amen

It's probably going to depend on near infinite variables, but if it looks like outright uninspired plagiarism then there's nothing wrong with reporting it.

The worst that happens is a DM responds and says it's fine, or that they'll look into it.

Going out on a limb: I'd say it's usually fine in moderation with a personal creative twist. Xarge said it best already:

Inspiration > mimicry

Sometimes a little jab at the fourth wall can make for some lighthearted and fun interactions: a well timed nod and a wink before moving on.

A few weeks ago I saw someone draw inspiration from 50 year old 4 minute Monty pythons flying circus skit, but fully adapted for the arelith setting. The concept was used as inspiration, but everything else was fitting to suit the moment perfectly. Over a dozen characters absolutely loved it.

I bet I was only the one that noticed because I spent all my time religiously watching that stuff over and over as a kid instead of star trek.

On the flip side someone could go full Patrick Stewart on me and I wouldn't even notice unless they were literally talking about phasers, wearing a red shirt, and face palming all at the same time.

[The GrumpyCat]

An interesting subject (exception?) to me is Bardic songs.

Some people (Including me!) use existing songs for bards. IMO as long as they're mostly kept relitivly obscure - especialy in highly public surrounds - and are fitting to the setting to an extent - its fine.

I'm not hardcore enough to want every poor bard who wants to sing a song to make up their own lyrics. Huge kudos to those who do though.

[Inordinate]

Being original is hard but as the rest have said context certainly does matter. If you enjoy their roleplay normally and these incidents stand out then maybe try reaching out to them to let them know how that 'break' impacted your interactions with them. That isn't to say send a tell in game telling them they're awful and need to be original but if you thought it was a problem then you might not even be the only one! If they react in a hostile manner to the suggestion then I'd say go to the DMs at that point as it shows an unwillingness to make an effort.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

An interesting subject (exception?) to me is Bardic songs.

Some people (Including me!) use existing songs for bards. IMO as long as they're mostly kept relitivly obscure - especialy in highly public surrounds - and are fitting to the setting to an extent - its fine.

I'm not hardcore enough to want every poor bard who wants to sing a song to make up their own lyrics. Huge kudos to those who do though.

I've actually seen people direct scorn at bards who borrow from or improvise real world lyrics, or even for the way they emote magical music, like this isn't a game and role-playing should come with the real life obligations that come with mastering a performing arts skill - even though at this stage most players have jobs in the real world.

Personally, I'd rather the server be without people that feel free to throw such scorn around than it be without imitators trying to inject a little verve and detail into their fun. The implications of such sour grapes, and their ability to ruin the fun of someone trying to commit to a character is far more of a turn-off than a few instances of imitation and flattery- and I actually play two instruments.

[Skald Haldi]

Good point in comparison to bard poetry sessions. In some ways, that is similar to what is going on here. A long reading from an outside source - changing a few words here and there to make it fit the context. I understand and don't object when the same happens at bard contests. This is about the same in that respect.

Unfortunately, there's a bigger problem here because the source being quoted is the Bible - but I can't explain details without calling someone out.

In my case, Inordinate's suggestion about NICELY contacting the player first before bringing it to the DMs seems like a good plan.

Thanks to all of you for your well-considered replies.

[Kuma]

I've directed scorn at people for performing poetry that was lifted wholly from RL and claiming authorship IC.

Plagiarism is not okay. As long as your character slash you the player aren't somehow claiming authorship then the rest of this thread applies.

EDIT: I've quoted the bible heaps, in fact it's almost impossible to not do it in English at some point, even without realising it. That being said if it's inordinately long chunks then that's just a bit weird. Possibly worthy of a report? IDK.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I dislike ripping off of real life songs, they have a very different tone than original player poetry most of the time. It stands out a lot to me. I prefer seeing original writing, inspired from the personality and experiences of the character. But it's more of a pet peeve than something I view as a major issue. I don't think it's something that can realistically be policed either. Not to mention the server has the deity books, which are copy/pasted off of FR wiki.

[Duchess Says]

Quoting the bible is weird because real-world religion is a touchy subject best not broached with other anonymous players on the other side of the world. This just isn't the place for it and whether it leads to fighting or bonding neither is really appropriate.

But it's not plagiarism to quote the Bible or to adapt passages. When I started the topic I thought someone was lifting from ASoIaF or Lord of the Rings or something and I'm surprised this is what is in question. The Bible is not copyrighted and it's such a part of culture it's completely fair game. I wouldn't use it as anything but a very rough and vague source for the reason above but the text is fair game for appropriation however you see fit.

Most classics would also be fair game and perhaps more appropriate. I've seen Shakespeare and Dante's Inferno text lifted in game both by players and area builders and that is fine. I'm sure we've all spotted Sun Tzu and Machiavelli quotes too. In my opinion it's completely legit and sometimes even clever to do this... I have no problem unless that's all the character does.

Harry Potter? That's different. That's a currently published copyrighted text by a living author. Don't steal from anime, video games, movies and books from the 20th and 21st centuries. Postmodern references, winks to pop culture and throwaway quotes are kind of okay or at least unavoidable but if you're going to do that don't make it all you are about. Occasionally can be fun but don't be the class clown making Simpsons quotes instead of engaging.

If you don't want to write songs I'd recommend looking to public domain songs from the medieval era and folk music from any age instead of adapting some classic rock song everyone knows. There's so much wonderful and completely obscure music you could lift or adapt that would feel much more part of the setting. But that is just my opinion.

[Kuma]

This is somewhat of a tangent, but: I'd also go further and say that lifting chunks of the actual Forgotten Realms setting (whether it be from the books, FRwiki, or sites like realmshelp), copypasting from the Encyclopedia Arelithica and claiming 'research', or dumping your actual logs, are all indicative of a lack of creativity at best and outright plagiarism or metagaming at worst.

As someone who helps run a scholastic guild where contributions of written material were expected and now encouraged, we ran into this problem. It's difficult for us to broach and will be embarrassing for you when called out. Don't do it. Put it in your own words, put your character's spin on it, use it for inspiration: but be original.

[Lexx]

I think GC summed it up best. The odd reference done in good humor is fine imho. Just don't base the entire cornerstone of your Rp wholesale off other works.

[The GrumpyCat]

Quoting the bible is weird because real-world religion is a touchy subject best not broached with other anonymous players on the other side of the world. This just isn't the place for it and whether it leads to fighting or bonding neither is really appropriate.

But it's not plagiarism to quote the Bible or to adapt passages. When I started the topic I thought someone was lifting from ASoIaF or Lord of the Rings or something and I'm surprised this is what is in question. The Bible is not copyrighted and it's such a part of culture it's completely fair game. I wouldn't use it as anything but a very rough and vague source for the reason above but the text is fair game for appropriation however you see fit.

Most classics would also be fair game and perhaps more appropriate. I've seen Shakespeare and Dante's Inferno text lifted in game both by players and area builders and that is fine. I'm sure we've all spotted Sun Tzu and Machiavelli quotes too. In my opinion it's completely legit and sometimes even clever to do this... I have no problem unless that's all the character does.

Harry Potter? That's different. That's a currently published copyrighted text by a living author. Don't steal from anime, video games, movies and books from the 20th and 21st centuries. Postmodern references, winks to pop culture and throwaway quotes are kind of okay or at least unavoidable but if you're going to do that don't make it all you are about. Occasionally can be fun but don't be the class clown making Simpsons quotes instead of engaging.

If you don't want to write songs I'd recommend looking to public domain songs from the medieval era and folk music from any age instead of adapting some classic rock song everyone knows. There's so much wonderful and completely obscure music you could lift or adapt that would feel much more part of the setting. But that is just my opinion.

I'm not sure that copywrite is... neccesarly one of the huge issues here?

Ok so lets take this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpH-pu0AtRM
Black Fox by Heather Dale (a rather good song IMO but not one extremely well known as far as I'm awear)

Lets say your bad sang it unaltered. I very much doubt that Heather Dale herself would charge on down and go 'YOU STOLE MY SONG!'

Likewise as a DM, I'd have little issue with it. Ideally I'd like bits of it altered to something more IC but mostly it'd be fine.

Now if (especially OOCly! But really ICly...) You were to claim it was one of your own works... I still don't think Heather Dale would neccesarly charge down and sue you... it's not that public and you arn't making RL money from it. That said I (and I imagine a lot of people) would find oocly claiming that you made up someone elses song a rather awful thing to do.

Now if your character were to go around singing 'House of the Rising Sun' (again in this example entirely unaltered) I personaly would find that a bit more jarring and problematic, because it doesn't fit with the setting at all, and its an extremely well known and popular song. (It is also, as an aside, out of copywrite)

So basicaly I don't think copywrite is really the issue here. No one is making massive amounts of money on this, and we're not that big a deal. It's more an issue of immerson in the world, showing an amount of imagination and - as Kuma also points at in some cases - having common decency. If someone asks 'Is that your song?' (and you've lifed a song from elsewhere) say 'No, it's from another bard.' And ideally tell them who it is in tells or some such.

[Hazard]

If you can make it funny and it's just a sometimes thing? I love it. Anything done in good fun, is good fun.
I wouldn't make a habit out of it though, and I wouldn't like to see it used for anything serious.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I've directed scorn at people for performing poetry that was lifted wholly from RL and claiming authorship IC.

Plagiarism is not okay. As long as your character slash you the player aren't somehow claiming authorship then the rest of this thread applies.

EDIT: I've quoted the bible heaps, in fact it's almost impossible to not do it in English at some point, even without realising it. That being said if it's inordinately long chunks then that's just a bit weird. Possibly worthy of a report? IDK.

I agree that intentional plagiarism without credit is NOT okay. By the same token, I'm not going to give a player crap for rebranding something to the setting and not sourcing their credits IC, thereby breaking my immersion, just like I'm not giving the tower or historic players crap for the Mesmer Coil, which isn't original beyond the narrative effort of making a Tesla coil setting appropriate to FR- because the intention wasn't to claim they invented the Tesla coil in real life and profit, it was to make a bit of fun in game.

Edit: Not claiming you do this, Kuma, just a good segue for my thoughts on the matter so I quoted it.

[Drowboy]

You understand the difference between plagiarizing written works and satirizing science concepts right

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

You understand the difference between plagiarizing written works and satirizing science concepts right

You understand I'm saying that I don't think the Mesmer coil is plagiarism, but fun, and that I'd feel the same way if someone sang heather Alexander's March of cambreth n character as long as the player didn't run around telling other players they just wrote it?

[The GrumpyCat]

You understand the difference between plagiarizing written works and satirizing science concepts right

You understand I'm saying that I don't think the Mesmer coil is plagiarism, but fun, and that I'd feel the same way if someone sang heather Alexander's March of cambreth n character as long as the player didn't run around telling other players they just wrote it?

I pretty much agree.

If I hear a bard pc sing a song - I don't expect them to say after 'And that was by the great bard David Bowie!' because that'd be terribly unimersive and honestly would feel wierd.

I think if I asked them IC it'd be classy (as in a good idea) for them to say 'Oh yes it was by another bard' or some such... claiming it as their own is a little um... not good.

And claiming it as their own oocly is outright crappy.

But yes, it's about the flow of a situation.

[Wethrinea]

On my bardic characters I have, and will continue to alter and use RL songs, poems and legends without shame. Just as the creators of the Forgotten Realms have done since it's beginning.

Some genres lend themselves better to FR context than others. Norse myths? A literal gold mine, which I also see has inspired everything north of Arelith (Looking at you, Skal and Gnitaheitr). Folk tales? Also very versatile as they are at the core quite independent of time, place and culture. Want to spice up your battle-bard? Amon Amarth has a song for you.

If a performance is well timed and fits the current context, it could be an altered hit song from last summer for all I care.

[godhand-]

This is an interesting thread as i'm currently maining a bard....

On my bardic characters I have, and will continue to alter and use RL songs, poems and legends without shame. Just as the creators of the Forgotten Realms have done since it's beginning.

If a performance is well timed and fits the current context, it could be an altered hit song from last summer for all I care.

I've done this with a song i'm writing for a big performance, but i've heavily altered the song....
For what its worth, i've completely re-written Cardi B "WAP" , but instead of it being about... well, WAP, its about banites.

If anyone could even recognise that its a rip-off of that song, i'd be -very- impressed.

[R0GUE]

Even in the real world musicians do covers all the time. As a well known bard in Arelith (we do weekly concerts at the Fool's Clover under the Nomad) I sing famous songs from the Forgotten Realms, because why wouldn't those songs have travelled from bard to bard to bard? I will also sing songs like Grumpy pointed out above from artists like Heather Dale or other bits of fantasy fiction, as long as it fits in the setting. If the song has a line like "and god only knows" I'll usually change it to "Mystra only knows" or some such. I never claim that I wrote these songs myself, not in game and certainly not if someone asked me in a tell. If asked in a tell I am happy to share where I got it from, because I love other people getting the joy of hearing a good song.

I also write my own songs. Sometimes they are 100% original. Sometimes, like godhand's example above, it almost like a "rewrite" of an existing pop song. I wrote a hymn to Sehanine that is definitely heavily inspired from a very famous song. I doubt anyone has ever noticed, but if they did I actually would hope they'd sing along in their heads to the tune of the real song.

Keep in mind this isn't a job for people, its playtime. No one has time to be 100% original especially when you are trying to come up with content for a weekly concert. The key is to keep it so it doesn't break immersion, so it fits with the game world, and not to be a jerk about it by claiming it as your own work. I assume if I was significantly breaking people's immersion no one would come to our concerts. But last week we had a standing room only crowd, well over 40 people assembled in audience.

[LawfulJoe]

So a few things legally that need to be considered, is that parody is protected language. To take an existing song and change the lyrics is something that’s done all the time, example “Weird Al” Yankovic. The other legal practice that can be cited here is Fair use. When something is done creatively and and not for profit, in many instances fair use is a legal stance that applies.

Since no harm is done here and it is a role-playing game that is not claiming the works to generate revenue for the game or for individuals playing in the game I think we would safely be in the realm of parody and fair use.

I myself try to find obscure works or take from poetry and other songs that I’ve been around for hundreds of years and also fall into a category known as public domain. We cannot expect regular people role playing a musical or literary genius to, on a regular basis, generate unique and original songs and poems. Nor can we expect Fan generated servers to carry BMI and ASCAP licenses. To push this issue would financially crush these types of servers and they would cease to exist all together.

For example, there is a song called “Wind that Shakes the Barley”, that while has been used by other artists in reality is also hundreds if not more years old and taken from history from musicians or poets who are long dead.

The Bible is public domain, Shakespeare and many poets works are public domain such as Lord Byron, Percy Bysshe Shelly, Keating, Yeats and many others. Their works and words are quoted in theater, movies, TV, and every day pop-culture all the time.

I have taken works and changed locations mentioned in the songs to reflect the forgotten realms, and I’ve written my own songs. The question we have to ask ourselves is, where is the line and are we crossing it?

If a bard comes on stage and uses the lyrics Word for Word of Metallica, it may fall under fair use but it also is breaking immersion. So which is the greater crime? Is it the quoting of lyrics that are definitely copy written and have been legally protected and even taken to court such as the case of Napster vs Metallica? Or is it the fact that our fantasy game that we used to escape or forget about reality for a few hours has been given a reminder of the world we actually live in?

I would say definitely the first step is to ask that the player cease using the copyright work in an OOC tell if possible. In most cases this will solve the problem, as most people are simply trying to have fun and do so without dedicating hours of creative time, and creativity that they may or many not have, outside of the game but also understand that it’s about other peoples fun as well.

If a player is causing harm to other peoples fun then I think that is where we need to step in. But if the immersion is not broken and the game is still fun for the majority of players, even though a musical work or poem has been quoted, we should carry on. Just my 2 cents.