Arelith

How do the rules of engagement factor into putting traps on quarter doors? I imagine in most situations, you don't even want to be there when the trap gets triggered - well, it's kinda the whole point, really. But if the trap goes off on the wrong person who happens to go through before your intended target, what then? If a threatening goblin runner is sent as prelude to the attack, is that valid? What circumstances are there that would maybe break the rules of engagement, or what's required not to break those rules? It's a weird situation so I don't know what questions would be the most clarifying.

Non-DMs, please don't throw guesses on this thread - if you're going to comment, use actual experiences. Otherwise, the verdict will inevitably become confusing.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Trap

It is not permitted to leave traps around unattended. There does need to be a roleplay reason to set a trap (and being chaotic evil isn't a RP reason).

There's also been rulings on the forums (which I cannot be arsed to dig out) that if you intend to use traps for PvP you still need to follow the rules of engagement and have some interactive roleplay with the intended victim.

I was under the assumption that traps on a quarter door or in the quarter itself was all within the rules. Esp one placed on the door. If you are attempting to break into a home isn't that a hostile act?

By 'traps on quarter doors' do you mean 'an epic fire trap that I can set with my set trap skill' or do you mean 'the option in the quarter menue for me to put a trap on my door should someone attempt to pick it.'

If the former then the above is entirely correct.

If the latter (a trap that is activated by attempting to break into a quarter) then I guess the engagement rules don't count. Its a risk you take when trying to break into a quarter.

How about traps inside the quarter? If I'm the only one who has access to a quarter, and I place a trap there, someone breaks in, and steps on the trap, is that against the rules because I didn't engage in PvP? Or is it okay, because the character who stepped on the trap was breaking in?

Pretty sure no one has directly addressed the point.
(Correct me if im wrong)
Magistrasa is asking about a situation like this:

You want to commit acts of terrorism in protest of the current electorates. Maybe you're hired to kill the mayor. So you send him a threatening speedy, then zoom to his house (where you assume him to retreat after threat) and put traps on the door, so when he tries to walk in... Boom.

This is the sort of situation i believe is being asked about.

COV gets it.

Speedy's do not count as interactive RP, which would be required in that scenario.

That being said, if you beat him to his house and trap the front of the door, you can then wait for him and ambush him outside his house. Once combat has begun, and he steps on your traps, it's a fair kill. If he steps on your traps before you RP hostilities then that's a no-no. This scenario is obviously risky.

And then what if you DO actually interact face-to-face and then the target wanders into your traps after the roleplay is done?

EDIT: when I say "wander," I mean something along the lines of a multi-transition walk from whatever roleplay hub the interaction took place in, to the quarter they reside in.

So, is it not possible to effectively use traps in a guerrilla rebellion if there is no interactive rp. It seems like one story option would be an open rebellion from a hidden group that regularly trapped public spaces and poisoned water. The group would want to publish notes and pamphlets for their cause but may want to remain concealed. The goal of the citizens would be to root them out. It seems like there is a way to do this that is fun for everyone.

I was under the impression that the grotto sprigan war was pretty much this a few years ago.

How about a scenario like in one of the ORIGINAL "Lethal Weapon" films, where Sgt. Mertaugh doesn't show up for work... only to be found later sitting on his home toilet with a bomb wired to go off when he stands up.

Seems the bomber left a note on the roll of toilet paper that red "Boom." And that tipped him off.

What, say, if a rogue broke into someone's quarter... in an attempt to send a signal/threat to the owner, left behind a nice fat epic fire trap... but left a signboard "fixture" either in the center of the trap, or in front of the trap, where the owner would see it and would then KNOW there is possibly a bomb...err... trap... waiting for him, but the perpetrator(s) has left it clearly marked and it IS NOT a surprise... well... other than the surprise of seeing the sign there that says "One more step and "boom!" you're dead."

Would this be considered RP'ing enough to leave the trap in the quarter?


p.s.
No one is allowed to do this to MY quarter btw... since I thunk it up.

Speedies definitely qualify as interactive roleplay. There are multiple instances of DM's saying so. It's the entire premise of expressing hostility to qualify for PvP... which... it does.

If i were to hazard another guess towards what Magi is asking, like most things, this is a case-by-case basis. Tough shite for whoever mistakenly hits the traps, but it happens. If it became endemic behavior that the same person mistakenly blows up the wrong people, im sure DM's will talk to that person.

Checked with the team

1) As above mentioned, speedies do not count as interactive rp. There should be some significant rp before the trap is placed. Ideally fairly soon before.

2) I'd also STRONGLY advise that the trapper stick around the area after setting the trap, and does not leave it unattended. This is prevent others who may have access to the quarter, but who havn't had the prior rp, or arn't the target of the trap, from being effected.

I'll grant in the above sitatuion, with quarter doors, this is less likely to happen than say, the middle of Cordor road. But it's still a possiblity and as such, in order to avoid that situation, I'd suggest the trapper stick around the area.

ADDENDUM

Speedies definitely qualify as interactive roleplay. There are multiple instances of DM's saying so. It's the entire premise of expressing hostility to qualify for PvP... which... it does.

No. Speedies DO NOT count as interactive roleplay.

So the rule about sending speedies to precursor PvP is just out the window suddenly?

CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:17 pm

So the rule about sending speedies to precursor PvP is just out the window suddenly?

It's never been an acceptable measure. I am not certain where the idea that a speedy was legitimate measures for interaction before PvP?

A player must interact face-to-face to engage in PvP with someone.

Tangential - There HAVE been DM rulings in the past that you can Trap your OWN private quarter with locked door INSIDE. So you can trap the INSIDE of your OWN quarter without having to hostile people.

I don't have enough time to dig up this ruling before work. It used to be in my quote, before some brain-dead no-life with too much time on their hands forced me use a real password by hacking my forum account. Someone else can feel free, or I can dig it up later.

CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:17 pm

So the rule about sending speedies to precursor PvP is just out the window suddenly?

You could never just send a speedy to notify someone of an exile, for example, it always had to be done face-to-face/character-to-character.

Spyre wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:18 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:17 pm

So the rule about sending speedies to precursor PvP is just out the window suddenly?

It's never been an acceptable measure. I am not certain where the idea that a speedy was legitimate measures for interaction before PvP?

A player must interact face-to-face to engage in PvP with someone.

I've been playing here for a long time, and while the rules may have changed without me realizing, it feels very disingenuous to read "never" when it most certainly has.

I remember it specifically being brought back up around the time the assassin's guild was released, because people felt like speedies didn't offer assassin's enough room to make use of their ambush style gameplay, which is why it was then scripted that those with contracts on their head would receive a server notification, to help alleviate this concern.

It was later be clarified that speedies were enough warning for anyone, and assassin's could freely attack who ever. Obviously the assassin bit has changed, but I was never aware of the first part changing.

CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:35 pm

Spyre wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:18 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:17 pm

So the rule about sending speedies to precursor PvP is just out the window suddenly?

It's never been an acceptable measure. I am not certain where the idea that a speedy was legitimate measures for interaction before PvP?

A player must interact face-to-face to engage in PvP with someone.

I've been playing here for a long time, and while the rules may have changed without me realizing, it feels very disingenuous to read "never" when it most certainly has.

I remember it specifically being brought back up around the time the assassin's guild was released, because people felt like speedies didn't offer assassin's enough room to make use of their ambush style gameplay, which is why it was then scripted that those with contracts on their head would receive a server notification, to help alleviate this concern.

It was later be clarified that speedies were enough warning for anyone, and assassin's could freely attack who ever. Obviously the assassin bit has changed, but I was never aware of the first part changing.

I think you may be confusing the line that came from an old post and is still present on the Assassin wiki page:

"Send the person a halfling/goblin Speedy messenger making clear that he is a target for assassination. Much alike the note, but more directly. Note: This does not count as 'interactive roleplay', you may not attack someone just because you have sent them a speedy."

Doesn't sound like they're confused about a wiki quote.

Also, doesn't seem like this tangent is related to the question.

To clarify - is a trapper liable to get in trouble if an unintended casualty trips the trap instead of the target? Can't say I'm keen on hopping out of stealth if a third party, who is probably related/allied to the target in the first place, starts walking towards the quarter and I have to flag them down like, "Wait, stop, hold up, this surprise was meant for your friend, not you, whoops!" Not much of a surprise at that point, which... defeats the entire point.

Really, this seems like something only an assassin can get away with, isn't it? As far as I understand it, in any other circumstance, a would-be attacker HAS to engage in PvP immediately after the roleplay - they can't wait and chill and launch an ambush after the fact. But from how Grumpycat is answering, it seems like door traps... are an exception?

Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake here, thanks for bearing with me while I untangle these weird rules.

CosmicOrderV wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:35 pm

I've been playing here for a long time, and while the rules may have changed without me realizing, it feels very disingenuous to read "never" when it most certainly has.

Definitely never, 100% misremembering, or you just misread back in the day.

I remember dying once on a 444 hp character with around 30ish reflex due to the Fox's Den trap. It was a fun experience.

magistrasa wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am

Doesn't sound like they're confused about a wiki quote.

Also, doesn't seem like this tangent is related to the question.

To clarify - is a trapper liable to get in trouble if an unintended casualty trips the trap instead of the target? Can't say I'm keen on hopping out of stealth if a third party, who is probably related/allied to the target in the first place, starts walking towards the quarter and I have to flag them down like, "Wait, stop, hold up, this surprise was meant for your friend, not you, whoops!" Not much of a surprise at that point, which... defeats the entire point.

Really, this seems like something only an assassin can get away with, isn't it? As far as I understand it, in any other circumstance, a would-be attacker HAS to engage in PvP immediately after the roleplay - they can't wait and chill and launch an ambush after the fact. But from how Grumpycat is answering, it seems like door traps... are an exception?

Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake here, thanks for bearing with me while I untangle these weird rules.

As I said, it was an old post that was then placed on the wiki.

For having to alert others, its like Hellballing in an area with a bunch of other people. You may only intend to hit person x, but if you proceed to hit y and z you're in trouble. Even an assassin has to be mindful of this.

A non-assassin would probably have to do something clever. For example preempt the person going back to their door, pretending that they were going to leave a note on it that they wrote up in advance. They then engage in dialog with the home owner that then moves towards heated discussion and finally they "storm off" and stealth around the corner, then slink back and when the trap is triggered finish them off.

These are some very difficult rules that for sure. And I think I even recall the ruling mentioned above about traps being allowed in quarters. But frankly I always found such rulings a little dodgy to start with because of the PvP situation.

You MUST roleplay before PvP, that includes traps.
I'd say that the rp must come within about five min of the pvp. So you can possibly rp with someone, run away, then set the trap.

And this leads back to the quarter door situation.

If you are SURE that the character in question whom you rped with five min before will DEFINATLY touch that door? And NO ONE else? Then great.

But if you do that, and the pc touches that door say, an hour later? Or some poor randomly unafiliated pc touches that door and dies? Then that's on you and that is a rules break.

When in doubt ask yourself, 'Will this action result in good story which the other person will probably enjoy and consider fair play. Or is this just a method of being able to catch the other person out and Win.' If the latter- think twice before doing it.

if I remember right the ruling about trapping inside your quarter was something about you could place a sign in your room saying "room trapped proceed past her at own risk" sort of thing. Then if they walked on anyway they could hit traps.You couldn't trap the transition spot but it was something about if you gave them fair warning the place may be trapped.


Traps are pretty much like anything else, if I want to kill the head of a drow house it doesn't give me permission to just walk in a crowded room and tossing hellballs about because the person I want to kill is there. So if I want to trap the street to kill the chancellor of cordor it doesn't give me permisison to just lay 100 traps all over the street and it justifying innocent folks also hitting my traps just to get my target.