Anti-magic field questions

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Chosen Son
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Anti-magic field questions

Post by Chosen Son » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:45 am

If Irongorn, or another dev could answer some questions about this really cool sounding spell it would be appreciated.

1. Does anti magic field dispel all magical/supernatural effects within the field?

2. Does anti magic field suppress magical properties of enchanted equipment within the aura?

3. Can spells be cast from outside of the anti magic field into the field?

4. What is the duration of the anti magic field?

Thanks!

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Antimagic field, a question...

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:34 am

"New Spell - Anti-Magic Field
----------------------------------------

When cast this spell creates a 10' radius around the user where no magic can be cast, and all summons become immobile. A major game changer for those seeking an advantage against spellcasters, this spell appears in no spellbooks, but can be found on rare items in the game world, or used by dangerous foes, such as the infamous 'Weave Eater'
"


New mechanic introduced, I will start off by saying that this is not a complaint thread, more or less feedback on the implications of how this spell has been determined to affect undead, and what this means, lorewise and mechanically.

Historically, undead on arelith have been treated as an animated corpse of a long dead, or recently dead individual. The implications of this are simple: necromancers desecrate the dead to fill out their evil deeds.

This works on a number of levels because simply necromancers are bad guys. Generally.

The spell, antimagic field prevents magic from being cast, and halts summoned creatures.

It was determined that undead fit in this category, and Arelith generally operates under the assumption of WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get).

So this being said; undead are now treated as summoned constructs mechanically, therefore they are now lorewise summoned constructs.

There are many implications to this. Maybe not to a farmer or to the layman. But in general id like to see a ruling on what undead actually are.

Mechanically they are placed in the summon slots likely due to simplicity of gameplay.


So. Are undead animated/created/compelled corpses? Or are they summoned from thin air as would a summoned dire bear or dire tiger etc..?

I understand this as a balancing aspect. Thats no issue for me, my wonder is on the lore.


Edit: I guess I should clarify why I am asking the question, per player handbook rules of the Antimagic field where this spell has been pulled. Corporeal undead and crafted constructs are not affected by antimagic fields

I am currently unable to upload a picture of the entry in the 3.0/3.5 PhB but I will upload it soon

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Hazard » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:33 am

Does this also immobilize things that aren't spells/summoned like animal companions?
What about things that have freedom of movement or in the case of dragons and undead mind immunity?
What is the counter to this, can it be dispelled/breached away?
Will this also effect shadow mages and clerics of Shar? as shadow weave is usually not affected by dead magic zones.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by RedGiant » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:22 am

You see Irongron posted this sooooo close to April 1st, is this an April Fool's joke?
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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by ActionReplay » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:43 am

Mechanically it will flicker any summon as per NWN summon mechanics. Be it undead or a bear. Now Lore wise that's not up to me and I am not much in favour to make any ruling there either. Now if you want to RP your Undead as animated corpses rather than being summoned I don't want this spell to giv eyou any guidelines to that. If anything it just voids magic so perhaps even animted corpses have some of this in them to be controlled?

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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by Void » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:04 am

ActionReplay wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:43 am
Mechanically it will flicker any summon as per NWN summon mechanics. Be it undead or a bear. Now Lore wise that's not up to me and I am not much in favour to make any ruling there either. Now if you want to RP your Undead as animated corpses rather than being summoned I don't want this spell to giv eyou any guidelines to that. If anything it just voids magic so perhaps even animted corpses have some of this in them to be controlled?
Multiple online sources suggest that undead would work fine within an anti-magic field, because they are not summons. PnP create undead is a long ritual that creates a permanent undead, after all.

However, anything that was brought via Summon Monster would flicker out of existence.

On other hand, a creature that arrived via a gate or planar binding should be fine as well, as it is really on this plane and not summoned to it.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by ActionReplay » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:07 am

I added this spell months ago in my last batch, or as a shadow update I forget. But it now being live it may see some changes to how it works, both to be more lore-friendly and/or make sense mechanically.

As it stands, all this spell does is blocking all spellcasting within the AoE, for everyone including the caster and allies. All summons , both friendly and hostile, will wink out of existence when within the AoE but return when the spell expires or no longer inside the AoE.
Chosen Son wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:45 am
1. Does anti magic field dispel all magical/supernatural effects within the field?

2. Does anti magic field suppress magical properties of enchanted equipment within the aura?

3. Can spells be cast from outside of the anti magic field into the field?

4. What is the duration of the anti magic field?
1. No, buffs/effects remain.
2. Nope
3. Yes
4. As a proeprty its set to 10 rounds
Does this also immobilize things that aren't spells/summoned like animal companions?
What about things that have freedom of movement or in the case of dragons and undead mind immunity?
What is the counter to this, can it be dispelled/breached away?
Will this also effect shadow mages and clerics of Shar? as shadow weave is usually not affected by dead magic zones.
1. Yes, they wink out just like regular summons. Since in NWN they are mechanically a summon. This should probably be changed.
2. Dragons are inherently magical, as are many creatures. But a Dragon would not lose its ability to breathe fire as this is innate to them. They would not be able to cast spells within the AoE though.

As for Undead I dunno, I don't wanna step on anyone's toes here how it should behave but imo once an undead has been animated, the spell has already taken effect so there is no spell to counter but again mechanically summoned undeads are considered summons and will wink out in the AoE but we could change that depending on future ruling and how this proceeds.

3. No hard counter, avoid the AoE is all. So mobility is the best counter here.

4. Yes it affects all spellcasting, Arcane or Divine.

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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:10 am

ActionReplay wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:43 am
Mechanically it will flicker any summon as per NWN summon mechanics. Be it undead or a bear. Now Lore wise that's not up to me and I am not much in favour to make any ruling there either. Now if you want to RP your Undead as animated corpses rather than being summoned I don't want this spell to giv eyou any guidelines to that. If anything it just voids magic so perhaps even animted corpses have some of this in them to be controlled?
That would be a lore question i guess then... Simply put the Player Handbook for 3.0 and 3.5 declares that Corporeal undead specifically (Along with a short list of constructs) Are not affected by the spell. The reasoning being is that an Undead, construct or otherwise, as long as its corporeal are considered permanent entities.

This comes with the stipulation though that undead lose their features while within the field, I assume to be their crit immunities, But it states specifically they can still attack etc.


The reason why I bring it up is that with WYSIWYG, as well as the mechanical inclusion of Undead being halted, any wizard with spellcraft would know this, That is unless a ruling was made that Arelith handles undead LOREWISE differently than the Core rulebook, which leads me back to the point of the thread.


Image


EDIT: wow this came in huge... how to shrink...
Last edited by Shrouded Wanderer on Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by ActionReplay » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:12 am

Looking into this as well and yeah seems Undead should be unaffected by this, as other crestures should be as well. As for their innate immunities would linger much like how a dragon can still breathe fire inside the AoE.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by xanrael » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:15 am

Does it affect items like scrolls, potions, and wands being activated inside the field?

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by ActionReplay » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 am

xanrael wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:15 am
Does it affect items like scrolls, potions, and wands being activated inside the field?
From the looks of it no, Mundane Items are unaffected now not sure about scrolls.

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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:21 am

ActionReplay wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:12 am
Looking into this as well and yeah seems Undead should be unaffected by this, as other crestures should be as well. As for their innate immunities would linger much like how a dragon can still breathe fire inside the AoE.
It would seem a fix to this would to just make undead a henchman rather than a summon, as well as the others unaffected by the field. Though im not sure what that would do to balance or other issues with how the spells work.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Hazard » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:09 am

Thanks for those replies. Interested to see how this is tweaked/balanced in the future.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Hazard » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:11 am

Oh.

Does it check for spell resistance?

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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by Mythic » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:10 am

Reading over that, Would Spell resistance also factor into it? ala the SPell or would it be innate?. Are Animal Companions affected? Familiars?

Tribal Henchman? Dragon Knight summons?
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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Kalopsia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:25 am

ActionReplay wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 am
xanrael wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:15 am
Does it affect items like scrolls, potions, and wands being activated inside the field?
From the looks of it no, Mundane Items are unaffected now not sure about scrolls.
Perhaps the spell ought to grant those staying in the AoE the same spell resistance as the Spell Immunity wild surge. That way people outside the area of effect cannot use direct damage spells against those within.

(This would have the side effect of disabling various hostile scrolls, too)

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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by xanrael » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:29 am

Long ago undead were henchmen (well 2 of the 3 were) and thus you could have 2 unbanishable Vampires + EDK at the same time if you did things in the correct order. You also burned a spell for each "slot" and if one of them died it wasn't a simple process to replace that specific slot's undead.

I'm not saying that it would need to use the same code but it was both OP and a pain in a butt to manage.

I'd find it a bit ironic that an item introduced specifically to counter casters ended up buffing them.

Though if Antimagic Field was implemented exactly as written things wouldn't be as friendly for the caster.

I think if people get bent out of shape over PnP rules versus game balance, just change the name to Anti-Caster Field or something. In addition to other stuff it interrupts the ability to command creatures compelled into service which would include commanded undead.

Edit: I trimmed this down a bit as I realized I didn't want to have this go off on a tangent of stuff like epic spell rules and CL of items in NWN etc.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Irongron » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:01 pm

Merged these topics. Two were not necessary.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:11 pm

Just to keep in mind guys - Lore is well and good, but often has to take a back seat to things like game balence, what is possible to script, and so on.
I'm not saying these points don't have validity, but 'It's lore' doesn't trump everything.
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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Drowboy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:16 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:11 pm
Just to keep in mind guys - Lore is well and good, but often has to take a back seat to things like game balence, what is possible to script, and so on.
I'm not saying these points don't have validity, but 'It's lore' doesn't trump everything.
This is good. I'm playing a necromancer right now, and, listen: Mummy dust shreds, right. Having it go through pve/possible pvp 'hard mage counters' would be good for me, but probably not anti-magic-field being taken seriously en masse.
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Re: Antimagic field, a question...

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:49 pm

xanrael wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:29 am
Long ago undead were henchmen (well 2 of the 3 were) and thus you could have 2 unbanishable Vampires + EDK at the same time if you did things in the correct order. You also burned a spell for each "slot" and if one of them died it wasn't a simple process to replace that specific slot's undead.

I'm not saying that it would need to use the same code but it was both OP and a pain in a butt to manage.

I'd find it a bit ironic that an item introduced specifically to counter casters ended up buffing them.

Though if Antimagic Field was implemented exactly as written things wouldn't be as friendly for the caster.

I think if people get bent out of shape over PnP rules versus game balance, just change the name to Anti-Caster Field or something. In addition to other stuff it interrupts the ability to command creatures compelled into service which would include commanded undead.

Edit: I trimmed this down a bit as I realized I didn't want to have this go off on a tangent of stuff like epic spell rules and CL of items in NWN etc.
I dont believe this spell will end up buffing casters. But this spell certainly doesnt really fit the description of an antimagic field at all.

Items are unaffected by it. Wards are unaffected. It certainly just seems to be a silencing area and anti summon field if anything.

Id think it may be best to change the name of the spell to better fit what it does rather than call it "anti magic" when it doesnt affect all magic at all.

Player handbook aside its gonna be really weird to have this happen and people are still warding inside with potions.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Nitro » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:00 pm

So if I understand this right, the only counterplay for a spellcaster is to run for a minute straight if they get hit with an anti magic zone melee character in their face? That doesn't seem even remotely balanced, it's effectively a free "I win" button for any mundane to use on a spellcaster.

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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:34 pm

"Undead not being summons" is only applicable to the argument in terms of lore, if you want to start requiring necromancers to go out and harvest actual bodies for their minions, which is an IC action with risks and potential consequences. Otherwise, I see no reason that undead, animal companions, or even familiars should be exempt from this- especially since in an antimagic zone they traditionally function as normal animals of their kind until exiting said antimagic zone.

There are summon undead spells in FR lore, as opposed to creating them. The versions in Arelith work like summoning- you don't have to go get a body and perform an inherently vile desecration, instead you just perform an inherently evil summoning of an undead that already exists- a literal lesser of two evils, in this ironic case.

As far as balance- I'm not too concerned. As a caster, staying at least ten feet away from your targets is a mandatory exercise in survival most of the time, and you have the tools to do it.

Note- I play mostly casters, and if it were possible, I would enthusiastically see this spell applied as close as possible to its root. But it's neat as is, too.
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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:20 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:40 pm
Is the -fetch command disabled for summons stuck in the field? If not, it likely should be, as I could see it being abused.
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Re: Anti-magic field questions

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:23 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:34 pm
"Undead not being summons" is only applicable to the argument in terms of lore, if you want to start requiring necromancers to go out and harvest actual bodies for their minions, which is an IC action with risks and potential consequences. Otherwise, I see no reason that undead, animal companions, or even familiars should be exempt from this- especially since in an antimagic zone they traditionally function as normal animals of their kind until exiting said antimagic zone.

There are summon undead spells in FR lore, as opposed to creating them. The versions in Arelith work like summoning- you don't have to go get a body and perform an inherently vile desecration, instead you just perform an inherently evil summoning of an undead that already exists- a literal lesser of two evils, in this ironic case.

As far as balance- I'm not too concerned. As a caster, staying at least ten feet away from your targets is a mandatory exercise in survival most of the time, and you have the tools to do it.

Note- I play mostly casters, and if it were possible, I would enthusiastically see this spell applied as close as possible to its root. But it's neat as is, too.
So my question, as the threads have merged so its a bit jumbled. Was on the lore perspective of these spell itself.


Theres various issues of balance which are not really an issue. The issue is that with "what you see is what you get" you then run into the issue of "summoned" vs. "Animated"

Visually a summoned undead is the same as an animated dead.


Structurally this is not the case. A summoned creature is incorporeal, it is created from the weave magic and is a construct created entirely of magic.

An animated corpse is just that. An exumed corpse of a once living person.

A created undead is crafted from existing long dead things for example mummy dust are mummies reformed from the dust of a corpse, aka a person.


The lore implications of antimagic field blinking an undead out from existance means the arguement in character can be made that the undead all necromancers are created are summoned and thus the implication that they are magical constructs implies that a far less devious and evil act has taken place.

One could argue that an undead, whilst evil is not a abberation of nature as it is treated in lore now.

Part of the reason why animating a corpse is such an aberration is because their nature is permanent until destroyed. This means if a necromancer is killed their creations will continue wandering the world under no control and attack people at random. Or if they are released from control.

Up until now the arguement has been that undead are summoned and counted as summons due to game balance and scripting ease. And to treat them ingame as wandering off or being stored in some manner but to treat them as animated abberations.

This spell disrupts this by adding an unintended element. And that is concentration. Summoned creatures are concentration based. This means there is an active element of magic keeping them in their form. Antimagic disrupts any non permanent thing and anything incorporeal in nature.

This spell effectively confirms both mechanically and in lore that an undead is incorporeal and thus not animated. Thus, again whilst evil, not an aberation of nature and is destroyed upon the casters death or rest as a loss of concentration, or active wielding of the weave to keep the creation functioning.


This implicates lore of: Necromancers, firstly and foremost, Druids, and paladins to a lesser extent.

A necromancer, as it stands without a lore ruling, can now argue that utilizing undead is not animated, prove it by running their undead into an antimagic field proving that they have not crafted the creature from the bones of farmer joes first cousin twice removed. And simply created a creature from thin air.

In layman's terms

"You there your a necromancer!"

"Its just a summoned creature"

"Its a zombie you took corpses from the graveyard!"

"No i didnt. This creature is functionally and structurally the same as a summoned bear or tiger that that dude over there is running around with"

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