Anti-magic field questions

[Drowboy]

A summoned creature is incorporeal, it is created from the weave magic and is a construct created entirely of magic.

No it isn't. Where'd you get any of that? The SRD version (I am not digging up a 3e phb right now) is here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm

Specifically:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

It's never, not on Arelith or anywhere else I've ever played, for that matter, been treated as creating things out of whole cloth from magic energy. That's more evocation, even.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

A summoned creature is incorporeal, it is created from the weave magic and is a construct created entirely of magic.

No it isn't. Where'd you get any of that? The SRD version (I am not digging up a 3e phb right now) is here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm

Specifically:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

It's never, not on Arelith or anywhere else I've ever played, for that matter, been treated as creating things out of whole cloth from magic energy. That's more evocation, even.

From the SRD on antimagic field

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

*** Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might

A summoned creature, regardless is treated as incorporeal , antimagic field only affects the summoned IE created from the weave no extra palanar entities, specifically states that they do not affect outsiders, devils, demons, Holmes, animated corporeal undead


Effectively a summoned creature per the RAW is crafted from the weave and what you quoted does not disprove that.

Antimagic fields only affect non permanent entities that require magic to sustain their form.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm


To clarify. A summoned creature per the SRD, is treated as a creature of sustained magic and not called forth from another plane.

A SUMMONED creature is a crewture created with similar stats and visual as that specific creature but REQUIRES a constant source of magic to maintain its form.

Creatures created from spells such as animate dead, create undead, Gate/epic gate, dragon knight, create golem etc... Are considered permanent entities where in magic is no longer needed to sustain their form.

[Drowboy]

At no point does what you linked call anything created from the weave. Frankly, this argument is one of semantics. The pnp version of antimagic field is in no way the one we have. It could've been named Mesmer's Magnificant Nomagic and have the exact same effects, without leading to this mildly ridiculous argument.

Conjuration doesn't suddenly work an entirely different way as it always has both on every NWN server and in D&D because you're choosing how to read one spell.

Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead.

It's called from somewhere else. They're sentient creatures, when that applies, with agendas bound and summoned by you for temporary service.

They can make decisions and refuse commands.

A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

If you want to rp that your mage is capable of creating life from nothing, god-like, I have no authority to stop you, but I will warn you people are going to treat you as wrong IC.

This argument is moot though because the spell does what it does here and what it does here only. It stops summons and gives you 100% spellfailure while inside its radius. End of. It's not the pnp version, it's an Arelith spell that shares the name. Tabletop has no, real, bearing, other than as vague inspiration.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

At no point does what you linked call anything created from the weave. Frankly, this argument is one of semantics. The pnp version of antimagic field is in no way the one we have. It could've been named Mesmer's Magnificant Nomagic and have the exact same effects, without leading to this mildly ridiculous argument.

Conjuration doesn't suddenly work an entirely different way as it always has both on every NWN server and in D&D because you're choosing how to read one spell.

Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead.

It's called from somewhere else. They're sentient creatures, when that applies, with agendas bound and summoned by you for temporary service.

They can make decisions and refuse commands.

A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

If you want to rp that your mage is capable of creating life from nothing, god-like, I have no authority to stop you, but I will warn you people are going to treat you as wrong IC.

This argument is moot though because the spell does what it does here and what it does here only. It stops summons and gives you 100% spellfailure while inside its radius. End of. It's not the pnp version, it's an Arelith spell that shares the name. Tabletop has no, real, bearing, other than as vague inspiration.

You are correct that this is semantics as there are no solid RAW rules on whether or not they behave that way.


However its been stated by action replay in this thread that the antimagic field needs now to be looked at as it is not functioning as its supposed to in regards to certain summons. So your arguement to that effect is invalid.


The other thing is they are pulling this spell from PHB. Theyve stated as such.

If they created a homebrew spell or named this spell differently then it operates differently. However if its pulled from the PHB its expected to be compared to the PHB

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Structurally this is not the case. A summoned creature is incorporeal, it is created from the weave magic and is a construct created entirely of magic.

I snipped your post to deal with this part specifically, because in addressing this, I feel it addresses the rest of your questions and concerns.

If you're looking specifically for lore and IC consistency based on said lore, this is incorrect. Summoning spells don't quite work like that.

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Source= Go over here to d20srd, and Ctrl+F for Summoning.

Summoned creatures are not "created" when you cast a summon spell, rather, the spell takes pre-existing creatures from some other plane or place and brings them to you, bound to serve, with no reparations or contracting on the part of the caster. In a form of cosmic balance, to keep people and critters from randomly being summoned with no saving throw and killed as a result, even if the summoned creature dies, it reforms back where it came from 24 hours later, whole and unharmed. It's also worth noting that you don't gain XP from killing summoned creatures- that XP award is considered a part of the challenge rating of the monster that summoned them, and you don't get to double-dip (or summon the same creature and kill it over and over every 24 hours for more XP, either.)

This is different from "Calling" spells, like Gate, which actually form a magical contract (but still with a pre-existing creature) and bring the creature to you in a more palpable fashion in which they can actually be permanently killed- many summonable extraplanar beings know the difference, and will use the knowledge to their advantage- you DO gain extra XP for killing called creatures.

In the case of summon undead spells, the most likely origin for your summoned undead would be the negative energy plane, the shadow plane, or one of the lower planes that might liberally use them as servants and labor- although they could also call undead beings from elsewhere on the prime to you.

TL;DR
The primary point here, is that you're still bringing a real undead creature to you if you summon it- you just aren't desecrating the corpse and creating it yourself.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Structurally this is not the case. A summoned creature is incorporeal, it is created from the weave magic and is a construct created entirely of magic.

I snipped your post to deal with this part specifically, because in addressing this, I feel it addresses the rest of your questions and concerns.

If you're looking specifically for lore and IC consistency based on said lore, this is incorrect. Summoning spells don't quite work like that.

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Source= Go over here to d20srd, and Ctrl+F for Summoning.

Summoned creatures are not "created" when you cast a summon spell, rather, the spell takes pre-existing creatures from some other plane or place and brings them to you, bound to serve, with no reparations or contracting on the part of the caster. In a form of cosmic balance, to keep people and critters from randomly being summoned with no saving throw and killed as a result, even if the summoned creature dies, it reforms back where it came from 24 hours later, whole and unharmed. It's also worth noting that you don't gain XP from killing summoned creatures- that XP award is considered a part of the challenge rating of the monster that summoned them, and you don't get to double-dip (or summon the same creature and kill it over and over every 24 hours for more XP, either.)

This is different from "Calling" spells, like Gate, which actually form a magical contract (but still with a pre-existing creature) and bring the creature to you in a more palpable fashion in which they can actually be permanently killed- many summonable extraplanar beings know the difference, and will use the knowledge to their advantage- you DO gain extra XP for killing called creatures.

In the case of summon undead spells, the most likely origin for your summoned undead would be the negative energy plane, the shadow plane, or one of the lower planes that might liberally use them as servants and labor- although they could also call undead beings from elsewhere on the prime to you.

TL;DR
The primary point here, is that you're still bringing a real undead creature to you if you summon it- you just aren't desecrating the corpse and creating it yourself.

Ok, right, so a few things to address here. Firstly, this is all kind of nit-picky when it comes down to it. The antimagic field treats a target that is summoned as if it was incorporeal, winking it out of existance.

It would seem I was incorrect about how summons are created or called into existance, but the point remains that the reason why the antimagic field works at all is because There is a constant need for the creature to be connected via magic, and when that magic is severed then the creature ceases to exist within this context

there are several reasons why I bring up undead in this context, and not for example : Golems.

Undead can be created, Animated, or Summoned. This is a unique feature of Undead that exists because the DnD makers just wanted it that way, i dunno. its just how it works i guess, and really it doesnt matter.

The lore issue at hand isnt the semantics on what is, or isnt undead/summoned/etc

Undead that are summoned are not desecrated corpses in any of these respects if they are summoned. Via the SRD that has been quoted they are summoned from the negative energy plane, Dead people are there, they are not dead relatives desecrated via corpses.

There are probably many reasons why summoning works the way it does, but the implication of the spell is determining, hard, mechanical assertion that ALL undead within arelith are summoned and not animated or Created. Because Antimagic field works on ALL undead, ALL undead are summoned.

As action replay stated, he doesnt think it should be the case for undead as the PHB specifically states that it doesnt work on Permanent, animated, created, Corporeal Undead

But it DOES state that it works on Summoned, and/or Incorporeal Undead