Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

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Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by time_limited » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:45 am

Acordingly to the wiki it is mentioned that a prior RP has to be done before assigning Pariah or Exile status to somoeone?

Can I delegate another player to do that for me if I am unable to find the target persons in my playtime?
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Hazard » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:01 am

Only if that player can mechanically enact the status themselves/has faction permissions to do so.

.. I think.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by DM Zinzerena » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:50 am

time_limited wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:45 am
Acordingly to the wiki it is mentioned that a prior RP has to be done before assigning Pariah or Exile status to somoeone?

Can I delegate another player to do that for me if I am unable to find the target persons in my playtime?
Anyone that has the mechanical ability at the herald to declare someone a pariah/exile is eligible to fulfill the RP requirement. The RP requirement is simply face-to-face interactive RP informing them of the declaration prior to doing so.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by pandincus » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:17 am

I'm very sorry to resurrect this post, but I didn't understand why the character has to be the same as the one with the mechanical ability? This makes it very difficult if those with authority are simply not online when the people who need to be Pariah'd/Exile'd are available, particularly for smaller settlements.

As long as the RP takes place and there is in-character communication to deliver the notice, and to then inform the authority person that the notice has been delivered, why is that not sufficient?

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Kuma » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:39 am

pandincus wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:17 am
This makes it very difficult if those with authority are simply not online when the people who need to be Pariah'd/Exile'd are available, particularly for smaller settlements.

As long as the RP takes place and there is in-character communication to deliver the notice, and to then inform the authority person that the notice has been delivered, why is that not sufficient?

Thank you! Again, sorry for post necromancy.
Delegation of powers to more folks usually solves this, but also because it's considered a PvP action and something the individual doing it should be accountable for its enaction. Once it's in another player's hands, even if you trust them or get screenshots, or logs, it's more open to misuse or poor form that can't be handled as simply.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:56 pm

This is a difficult tight-rope to walk, because there's nothing worse than saying in-game, "yeah, but you're never around."

???

It's such an OOC thing to say, but there is legitimate concern about playtimes not aligning up.

If it were me, I'd say that exiles/pariahs simply starting running from the date of interaction, not the date of judgment. So if it take 2+ weeks RL to arrange a meeting? Then the person is in legal limbo until then (totally plausible given the island's volatility). And then the interaction commences the punishment.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:30 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:56 pm
This is a difficult tight-rope to walk, because there's nothing worse than saying in-game, "yeah, but you're never around."

???

It's such an OOC thing to say, but there is legitimate concern about playtimes not aligning up.

If it were me, I'd say that exiles/pariahs simply starting running from the date of interaction, not the date of judgment. So if it take 2+ weeks RL to arrange a meeting? Then the person is in legal limbo until then (totally plausible given the island's volatility). And then the interaction commences the punishment.
Very good idea.

People seem wierdly afraid of delegating powers. Which baffle me, especialy in reguards to Exiles which is very limited anyway.
If you have trouble finding someone on at the same time you are- then delegate it to someone else who is on at that time and give them the power of exile! Simple!

Random aside - on the off chance you think someone is deliberatly not logging and/or avoiding you so as not to be exiled - then feel free to report it.
Often it is just a case of bad timing - but we'll always look into it.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:32 pm

I think it could be a great RP opportunity to hire investigators to go and track someone down and deliver their exile/pariah. It's hard trying to RP being an investigator because people rarely hire them.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Royal Blood » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:56 pm

Yeah, I think the good duty of a settlement leader is to delegate the heck out of powers. That provides the greatest number of people with additional role playing options

That being said, I think it's the weird mentality generally held on the server kind of goes back on that. Because the mentality is more so being mechanically effective rather than providing opportunities for stories.

because, if you are the settlement leader that delegates a power and that power is abused than you were viewed as a ' bad player' which I think carries out of character connotations more so then the in-character repercussions of a developing story.

so, the next time an election comes around the favored candidate is the one that plays the cards close and doesn't approve outside of the circle
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Ork » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:15 am

I haven't experienced that, Royal. What I have experienced is leaders generally have a vision of their settlement and other players with different motivations and character-inspired purposes are often in conflict with that goal. So- how can a leader be sure their vision happens? Control.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:46 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:56 pm
because, if you are the settlement leader that delegates a power and that power is abused than you were viewed as a ' bad player' which I think carries out of character connotations more so then the in-character repercussions of a developing story.
Only to the powergamers. Whenever I see a settlement leader take an L because they were trying to share the narrative load, I see them as champs.

Good Arelithians require a kind of suspension of belief - "I know that if this was some real piece of GRRM-esque fiction, you'd be an idiot for doing that, but me as a player, seeing that you're obviously trying to include people in a story, is not going to play my character to react that way. Because that would seem like I'm penalizing you in-game for fully a huge OOC olive branch of awesome."
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Marsi » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:44 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:56 pm
That being said, I think it's the weird mentality generally held on the server kind of goes back on that. Because the mentality is more so being mechanically effective rather than providing opportunities for stories.
A lot of players struggle to see their character's occupation as a platform for storytelling. To them, it's important on a meta level that they are successful and effective in their "role".

It's a common failing of player guards, because presumably you want your guard character to have a successful career and not to become known as the bumbling idiot who always lets criminals get away -- but if you're so focused on *actually* eliminating crime that you snuff out crime RP altogether, suddenly playing a guard becomes very boring. It's a self own.

That balancing act must be achieved on an even more difficult scale as a settlement leader. Being meta-effective is far, far easier than giving your enemies the space to be your enemies, or "letting go" and delegating to potentially corruptible subordinates.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:43 pm

There's a lot of truth to be found in this thread.
Good Arelithians require a kind of suspension of belief - "I know that if this was some real piece of GRRM-esque fiction, you'd be an idiot for doing that, but me as a player, seeing that you're obviously trying to include people in a story, is not going to play my character to react that way. Because that would seem like I'm penalizing you in-game for fully a huge OOC olive branch of awesome."
To me this is part of what makes a 30+ rpr and in multiple situation.

A good roleplayer is free to be incompetent/wrong/amoral because that gives other people space to be competent/correct/moral, because people generally enjoy that.

But that's probably getting on a wider topic. Sorry.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:54 pm

Marsi wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:44 am
Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:56 pm
That being said, I think it's the weird mentality generally held on the server kind of goes back on that. Because the mentality is more so being mechanically effective rather than providing opportunities for stories.
A lot of players struggle to see their character's occupation as a platform for storytelling. To them, it's important on a meta level that they are successful and effective in their "role".

It's a common failing of player guards, because presumably you want your guard character to have a successful career and not to become known as the bumbling idiot who always lets criminals get away -- but if you're so focused on *actually* eliminating crime that you snuff out crime RP altogether, suddenly playing a guard becomes very boring. It's a self own.
I've seen this go in the opposite direction too, where guards were so focused on letting crime prosper for the sake of "RP" that they really do come across as bumbling idiots or corrupt. And when this happens I am not encouraged to RP anywhere near that settlement because it just feels like my character is being treated unfairly because of entirely OOC reasons. I get that people want to tell a story, but you're not writing a book, there are other characters with free-will who should get to play a part in the narrative. When you don't dish out consequences on "bad guys" then you're effectively spitting in the faces of the "good guys" who have followed the laws and paid taxes and want to be protected by the guards.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:17 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:54 pm
Marsi wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:44 am
Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:56 pm
That being said, I think it's the weird mentality generally held on the server kind of goes back on that. Because the mentality is more so being mechanically effective rather than providing opportunities for stories.
A lot of players struggle to see their character's occupation as a platform for storytelling. To them, it's important on a meta level that they are successful and effective in their "role".

It's a common failing of player guards, because presumably you want your guard character to have a successful career and not to become known as the bumbling idiot who always lets criminals get away -- but if you're so focused on *actually* eliminating crime that you snuff out crime RP altogether, suddenly playing a guard becomes very boring. It's a self own.
I've seen this go in the opposite direction too, where guards were so focused on letting crime prosper for the sake of "RP" that they really do come across as bumbling idiots or corrupt. And when this happens I am not encouraged to RP anywhere near that settlement because it just feels like my character is being treated unfairly because of entirely OOC reasons. I get that people want to tell a story, but you're not writing a book, there are other characters with free-will who should get to play a part in the narrative. When you don't dish out consequences on "bad guys" then you're effectively spitting in the faces of the "good guys" who have followed the laws and paid taxes and want to be protected by the guards.
You've just hit the nail on the head as to why playing any kind of authority figure is extremely difficult. You have to thread the needle of allowing for as many actors to participate while also maintaining some kind of gripping narrative and conviction.

It's not an easy task. It's why it's extremely noticeable when you have a "good" settlement leader vs. anything else.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:06 pm

The subjective quality of role play is an entirely OOC concept and should not really affect your characters' decision making. Sure you might think it is fun RP for Mayor McGoody to have tea and biscuits with Lord Babykiller and his evil minions and then let them go but if I'm playing a citizen of your settlement who has been attacked repeatedly by said evil minions don't be all :surprisedpikachuface: when my character goes around telling everyone your character is dumb or corrupt for being buddies with them and your character gets voted out. My character does not care about your grammar or how many paragraphs you type or how good of an OOC reputation you have as a player. IC consequences for IC actions. Yes, role playing a settlement or faction leader can be difficult, same can be said about playing a paladin, a warlock, a good drow, etc. If you just want social RP with no conflict and no consequences I would not recommend playing any of those. Being too eager to give concessions and extend olive branches for OOC reasons really breaks character and completely ruins immersion for others sometimes, is what I am getting at.

Edit: Just to add, I am not against small concessions such as, "Dismiss your evil summons or die!" and then letting them go if they comply. But if you're a Paladin you probably shouldn't be inviting them back to your room after that if you value your reputation as a Paladin. Not everything has to end with PVP but sometimes PVP is just the most sensible and immersive option, including exile/pariah.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:34 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:06 pm
The subjective quality of role play is an entirely OOC concept and should not really affect your characters' decision making. Sure you might think it is fun RP for Mayor McGoody to have tea and biscuits with Lord Babykiller and his evil minions and then let them go but if I'm playing a citizen of your settlement who has been attacked repeatedly by said evil minions don't be all :surprisedpikachuface: when my character goes around telling everyone your character is dumb or corrupt for being buddies with them and your character gets voted out. My character does not care about your grammar or how many paragraphs you type or how good of an OOC reputation you have as a player. IC consequences for IC actions. Yes, role playing a settlement or faction leader can be difficult, same can be said about playing a paladin, a warlock, a good drow, etc. If you just want social RP with no conflict and no consequences I would not recommend playing any of those. Being too eager to give concessions and extend olive branches for OOC reasons really breaks character and completely ruins immersion for others sometimes, is what I am getting at.
Yeah, you've just highlighted when you fail to the thread the needle.

Fun for other players should absolutely affect your characters' decision making. We're not writing a novel.

Good roleplayers will find ways to keep to character, extend a small olive branch, foster conflict, and provide ways to get people involved.

"IC consequences for IC actions", when read in the context of your paragraph, can really come across as the same mentality Marsi described as something detrimental.

Yeah sure, IC consequences do arise from IC actions. But you're not just dealing with characters, you're dealing with players. If you see Arelith as a binary, black-and-white environment, totally void and detached from OOC, you can easily fall into the trap of being a "I win" player.

Which is the worst. Because there is no winning here.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:51 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:34 pm
Yeah sure, IC consequences do arise from IC actions. But you're not just dealing with characters, you're dealing with players. If you see Arelith as a binary, black-and-white environment, totally void and detached from OOC, you can easily fall into the trap of being a "I win" player.

Which is the worst. Because there is no winning here.
I mostly play a lawful/neutral character who can do some very morally questionable things but still would not want to live in a settlement if it began to look like a zombie apocalypse movie. It's mostly about keeping with the lore and immersion for me. If you throw that out the window too much it eventually affects everyone's enjoyment. Trying too hard to win OOCly can be bad, but so can trying too hard to lose OOCly, which is the other extreme. My character always tries to win, because losing is not cool, and usually would result in them dying or suffering some kind of pain, poverty, humiliation, or whatever. When someone joins the same faction or settlement as my character and then acts like they are trying to lose and keeps handing off the ball to the other team on purpose, my character gets annoyed and questions their competence or their allegiance. Often it feels like both sides are trying to write the same narrative OOCly and any part I try to play in it is just me butting in because they have a set ending in mind already and don't want to change it. That's not very fun or immersive for me as a player and when I see that happening I move my RP elsewhere.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Curve » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:08 pm

I dig what you are saying, NPC. It is very possible to go too far with giving space for your IC enemy. To a point where conflict feels meaningless. But, that is a far cry from going scorched earth on a small thieves guild.

In my estimation there is far more going hard than leniency going on, and I think that is what leads very reasonable people to not try and rock the boat until level 30 and geared.

I feel you are letting the rare dictate the common.

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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:46 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:51 pm
Often it feels like both sides are trying to write the same narrative OOCly and any part I try to play in it is just me butting in because they have a set ending in mind already and don't want to change it. That's not very fun or immersive for me as a player and when I see that happening I move my RP elsewhere.
This is fascinating, because in all my long years, I've never ever felt this way. I don't really know what to say beyond being incredibly intrigued.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Please note the latest announcement.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21795&p=238966#p238966
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Nevrus » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:45 pm

I actually have a relevant story related to this.

So, I had a commoner who began to work at the Social Club. He worked his way up by bartending and helping with the economics, and went from a near-suicidal beggar on the street to a decent spot with a purpose in life.

Then the Chancellor came knocking trying to take the place on nebulous charges, so the staff hatched a plan: My commoner, who wasn't involved in anything illicit whatsoever, took over the bar prior to any trial.

Now, the trial still happened, and of course they ruled that they got to take the bar that the tried person no longer owned, but my commoner, trying to fight against an overwhelming power, basically barricaded himself in the back-room while trying to manage things such as people coming and going.

The local law-people cased the joint for months until the one time he slipped up to try and see what was happening, then allowed them to take over everything and then died in a fruitless struggle because he was tired of losing everything he cared about.

There was communication with the interested parties, IC coordination, a whole lot of role-play happening around it.

Would this have been a violation?
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:14 pm

Technically yes?


As someone else more sussinctly put it:
Liareth wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:46 pm
Dodging an official to avoid exile like this is bad because it's driven purely by OOC knowledge of the "interactive RP before exile" rule. It doesn't make a lick of sense IC - why would an official have to meet a mass murderer (for example), in person, to exile them? If that rule wasn't a thing they would already be exiled.

Now if no one complained, and everyone was (or seemed) happy with this ongoing rp? Great! And as my announcment said - appealing to the team should not be a first resort. Other methods should be followed first.

But that doesn't mean people will always (or even often) be alright with it and that doesn't mean it should be considered an exceptable response to the danger of being exiled/evicted ect.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:41 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:43 pm
Please note the latest announcement.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21795&p=238966#p238966
Out of curiosity, why this new ruling? This takes away one of the few options someone has to not be exiled (which can technically happen for any reason). If you have a good enough information network to know in advance you're going to be exiled, then why shouldn't you get an advantage for that? It's not hard to track someone down; even your own suggestions of hiring people to do it that they're not aware of would make it happen quickly. Someone avoiding exile is an IC move that can easily create a lot of RP, so it's a shame to see it suddenly become OOC. Besides, if someone is avoiding your town and/or not logging in in order to avoid an exile, it's rather moot anyways.

I say that with the experience of having to exile multiple people from different settlements over the years; them avoiding it adds RP, rather than taking it away.

"Avoiding exile" should be handled entirely IC, as should all of exiling. It doesn't make IC sense that the Chancellor has to track down someone in person (why can't we send a speedy?) to deliver an exile in the first place, so we've given it IC reasoning. But if the person avoids it then suddenly the IC reasoning becomes an OOC one? It's really no different than fleeing from someone who wants to stab you; IC actions have IC consequences.

It becomes even more strange for the exiles that have been revoked in the past for insufficient RP. There have been cases of exiles being removed even after sufficient RP but then the exile not put in place fast enough. There have been exiles where the exiler couldn't prove that the person should've heard it that got revoked.

So I find myself confused about this new ruling, which just makes exiling far more complicated; especially if you're a skilled disguiser or stealther that can't even be given speedies. You can do everything in your power IC; you can move from safe house to safe house; you can work day and night to avoid the strong arm of the law only to have it all removed for OOC reasons.

With this ruling now in place, we should open up exiling to just be done by speedy and make it more sensible both OOC and IC. Or even by town crier/mass public postings.
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Re: Pariah/Exile status RP requirement

Post by Gouge Away » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:50 pm

So if you commit a crime in Bendir and you know you're going to get exiled over it you're obligated to keep checking in at Bendir until an IC exile can be delivered so you aren't accused of avoiding it? I understand the reasoning but I don't think it's practical. If you're on the outs and know it you don't go back there or if you do you're sneaking or in disguise.

I mean I absolutely understand if a DM wants or need to assist in delivering notice of exile but framing it like someone staying away is violating the rules is something else. Whether IC or OOC it's also very easy to think someone is avoiding you when they're not even thinking of you at all. I wouldn't say that shouldn't be reported if a leader is frustrated that they can't deliver the exile notice but I'm unclear what the obligation of the exiled character is supposed to be here, or what kind of trouble they'll be in if they play it carefully and don't stroll into a settlement who's out for their blood.

I don't think exile is even that common any more and when it happens it's usually a pretty big and well known event, not like in the old days where every settlement had a huge and somewhat arbitrary list. Though I obviously don't know everything going on outside my sphere and there must have been a recent reason to address this.

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