Arelith

Monk dips and Divine Shield dips will still net you more AC on most builds and get you a lot of other neat perks. Even if you only have 10 wisdom or charisma, it is easy to get +6 AC with gear and zoo spells by reaching the +12 cap on those ability scores. It would be nice to have a viable alternative even if it is less optimal, especially for certain character concepts. Wizards and Spellswords might benefit more than most classes since holding a shield for them really sucks, but wouldn't it be nice to see spellswords that use swords instead of quarterstaves again? With Parry bonus something like a Rapier or a Bastard Sword becomes much more viable.

Spyre wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:38 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm

Bjorn Blue Tiger wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:12 pm

NMan is right.

The only missing detail is that, since all weapons are usable on Arelith despite your character proficiency feats, you will be able to receive the bonus as long as the weapon requires martial or exotic proficiency. It is really the weapon that matters here and not the character.

But! If you do so and doesn't have the proficiency feat for the specific weapon, you will still receive the AB penality.

Wait, wait. But doesn't this mean now mages can get +6 shield bonus without needing to get Still Spell and Auto-Still? Sorcerers don't have the skill points for this, but Wizards surely do. And they don't care about the AB penalty.

This is being considered - I would not build around that expectation as further alterations to this change may occur which will make the investment moot for certain classes.

I don't see the issue with this. A wizard wielding a rapier for +6 Shield AC is getting (wait for it) 1 more AC than a wizard with EMA up, and they're losing out on one of their most important equipment slots (their staff), making them lose out on +2 INT and a L6 spellslot (a mass haste, g. breach or IGMS) plus whatever stats, saves and spellslots they've loaded into their obligatory offhand club.

I also - never see wizards take Still Spell to equip shields, basically? I'm not sure where this phantom concern is coming from. It feels like a weird bit of theory-craft that's divorced from the reality of gameplay.

I wouldn't even call parrying up on a wizard to be cheese, or even an 'upgrade' - it's a trade-off. An abysmally laughable amount of bonus AC over one of the more common epic spells + 30 lost skillpoints vs. +2 rest-friendly INT, a L6 spellslot and a plethora of other effects on your enchanted offhand item.

Flower Power wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:29 am

Spyre wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:38 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm

Wait, wait. But doesn't this mean now mages can get +6 shield bonus without needing to get Still Spell and Auto-Still? Sorcerers don't have the skill points for this, but Wizards surely do. And they don't care about the AB penalty.

This is being considered - I would not build around that expectation as further alterations to this change may occur which will make the investment moot for certain classes.

I don't see the issue with this. A wizard wielding a rapier for +6 Shield AC is getting (wait for it) 1 more AC than a wizard with EMA up, and they're losing out on one of their most important equipment slots (their staff), making them lose out on +2 INT and a L6 spellslot (a mass haste, g. breach or IGMS) plus whatever stats, saves and spellslots they've loaded into their obligatory offhand club.

I also - never see wizards take Still Spell to equip shields, basically? I'm not sure where this phantom concern is coming from. It feels like a weird bit of theory-craft that's divorced from the reality of gameplay.

I wouldn't even call parrying up on a wizard to be cheese, or even an 'upgrade' - it's a trade-off. An abysmally laughable amount of bonus AC over one of the more common epic spells + 30 lost skillpoints vs. +2 rest-friendly INT, a L6 spellslot and a plethora of other effects on your enchanted offhand item.

EMA does not give shield AC.

Well, shit. I'm just wrong then. It's still only 2 AC up over a Shield spell (which has the added benefit of blocking spells for you, if you went Abj. focus'd, which is increasingly popular these days) - which you can probably keep up indefinitely since L1 wizard spellslots aren't exactly in obscenely massive demand.

The shield spell gives deflection ac in NWN.

It is probably better to not confuse the nature of AC in this question, yes.

Otherwise,

1) I have seen some wizards run an off-hand dagger etc just to have one more item to enchant with skills/attributes/etc. I am not sure if +6ac is a certain benefit for some of those who try to avoid damage through being effective by other means.

2) If the wizards are the bothering part I simply propose to tie the parry bonus to a BAB progression ("this bonus is capped by 2+2*BAB/10" or some better formula with proper BAB count for modified classes like spellswords).

Since there seems to be some confusion:

A shield bonus is a type of modifier available for a creature's armor class, representing an enchantment on the shield equipped by a creature (but technically not requiring a shield to actually exist). The only standard source of this type of bonus is an item property on shields. (Such an item property can be created with the spell magic vestment.)Multiple shield bonuses (which is possible with custom content) do not stack.

On Arelith, the spellsword offhand feature, wakizashis, and now parry apply shield AC as well.

The real clear winner here is bards, who can finally eschew a shield in combat to lessen ASF chance or negate it altogether if they are a dex build. And dex bards are already likely to max parry anyway. This is a true win-win for bards, a great way to encourage some different builds for them, and an important QoL imo.

Yeah, is there any advantage to Parry over a Tower Shield for STR, or non-Dex, characters?

I'm trying to understand who this update is *for*, besides the obvious swashbuckler. I'd argue even dex bards are kinda whatever about this, because you're not really casting a ton of spells with your shield out anyways.

I have a paladin who used a rapier who would have certainly done this instead for thematic reasons.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:33 pm

Yeah, is there any advantage to Parry over a Tower Shield for STR, or non-Dex, characters?

I'm trying to understand who this update is *for*, besides the obvious swashbuckler. I'd argue even dex bards are kinda whatever about this, because you're not really casting a ton of spells with your shield out anyways.

I don't understand what you mean, isn't the advantage of this that dex bard wouldn't need a shield and thus could minimize or eliminate ASF penalty completely?

I can see a lot of niche uses for this update including maybe some characters just don't want to carry a shield (let's say non-dual wielding dex-based WMs, if any still exist, maybe?)

But I think what's driving everyone crazy is when something new is introduced we all go into a mass hysteria over how to best take advantage of it. This is a pretty minor and situational ability most will disregard and that makes heads explode for some reason.

Gouge Away wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:23 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:33 pm

Yeah, is there any advantage to Parry over a Tower Shield for STR, or non-Dex, characters?

I'm trying to understand who this update is *for*, besides the obvious swashbuckler. I'd argue even dex bards are kinda whatever about this, because you're not really casting a ton of spells with your shield out anyways.

I don't understand what you mean, isn't the advantage of this that dex bard wouldn't need a shield and thus could minimize or eliminate ASF penalty completely?

I'm no expert, but typically bards don't do a a lot of casting mid-combat. Your cast all your buffs before equipping your shield. And if you need to throw up a Mass Haste, you just stow your shield for it.

Does 30 ranks in Parry outweigh that? Honestly couldn't tell you. But I don't think it's a total slamdunk "yes please thank you ma'am" scenario.

But you're right - this does seem very situational. I guess its just another little thing to consider.

I think bards do all that buffing because even a 5-15% chance of failure makes spells too unreliable or frustrating to use but a dex-based bard with no shield would overcome that, so casting a dirge or wounding whispers or war cry mid-combat could actually be an option. Could maybe possibly open up a play style you generally don't see.

Theoretically of course. I dunno!

So far as I can tell, using parry AC instead of a shield is, at best, a side-grade in most cases. You're investing 30 points for 6 AC, and giving up an item slot that typically gives 5-6 AC and/or other potential benefits such as stats, skills, or damage reduction. The only potential concern is how it is implemented with offhand daggers, but that can be addressed if and when it becomes an actual thing instead of just theoretical.

The above is true.

With a traditional final use of an Addy Tower shield, you are giving up 10% DR, +1 stat (from a rune) and +1 save/stat (from a 5%) for the ability to parry. It's certainly not optimal.

I still feel that bards benefit more from still spell than this change. Bard L6 spells are pretty lack luster aside from mass haste.

Gouge Away wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:55 pm

I think bards do all that buffing because even a 5-15% chance of failure makes spells too unreliable or frustrating to use but a dex-based bard with no shield would overcome that, so casting a dirge or wounding whispers or war cry mid-combat could actually be an option. Could maybe possibly open up a play style you generally don't see.

Theoretically of course. I dunno!

Yes, this is exactly my point. I almost never use wounding whispers, warcry, dirge, even avoid healing mid battle - now I am much more prone to try.

Ork wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:30 pm

I still feel that bards benefit more from still spell than this change. Bard L6 spells are pretty lack luster aside from mass haste.

Perhaps, esp. if you are STR based. But I've generally felt much more feat starved than skill starved with my character.

Ork wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:30 pm

I still feel that bards benefit more from still spell than this change. Bard L6 spells are pretty lack luster aside from mass haste.

I won't hear of Irresistible Dance being called "lackluster!"

But I dunno, Dirge isn't nothing, extended Ethereal Visage would be cool, these and more might be more useful when leveling than at 30 but that's not nothing.

Still spell eats a feat after all and a dex bard will probably want to max Parry anyway so *shrugs*

At a spell DC of 16+CHA, you'll never get a soul to fail that.

Ork wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:39 pm

At a spell DC of 16+CHA, you'll never get a soul to fail that.

You probably are referring to PvP. I get plenty of monsters to fail my saves for Irresistible Dance

R0GUE wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:20 am

Ork wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:39 pm

At a spell DC of 16+CHA, you'll never get a soul to fail that.

You probably are referring to PvP. I get plenty of monsters to fail my saves for Irresistible Dance

Which is nice, but irrelevant when discussing the use of a spell. Especially considering in PvE the mobs arent terribly smart and you can queue up the spell with your shield down before engagement. Don't need parry AC for that.

This change feels largely aesthetic to me. And I'm fine with that. Be nice to roll a character with just a single 1h weapon someday.

I only brought up "Ottos" because it's a funny spell and was hoping that would be evident. I apologize for failing to lighten the mood.

No, bards can't reliably cast DC spells in end-game PVP. There are still a few spells some might consider worth casting. There are still bards who'd rather invest 30 parry instead of wearing a shield because they like casting spells. If they were a dex-based bard it's not out of the question they'd have maxxed parry anyway, and if they're a dex-based bard they're probably not going after the epic PVP aspect of the game anyway.

That's just one of several examples of who this update might interest. Yeah, it's mostly for swashbucklers and a few other niche builds but that's okay. I think some are getting very nutty about this update when it's something you can comfortably ignore if you aren't interested. It just seems like a nice thing to give a few players who it might appeal to, what else needs to be said?

https://imgur.com/5UOJwA6


This comes with the cost of one lvl 6-9 slot and ~-4/5DC.
Saves aren't optimized due to me being very rusty and lazy. Drop 2 uni saves from the picture to gain one lvl 9 slot. Add one uni from +2uni rapier. +10saves from SC. ESF.Evo+ESF.abj.+abj.def+EDK+hell+ruin. Add misc adjustments. Non optimized properly.
Imp.exp fits, now you can guard the guard with 72ac, lol.
Yes, flat-footed will kill you. Nothing new here, right?

Sorc is entirely different beast, harder to tame, but possible.