Regular vs. Totem Druids

[SkipiusEsq]

Is there really any mechanical benefit to NOT going totem druid? You get the -4 on physical stats, but if you spend your fighting time in shifted form that is a non-issue. Also, you can take a form that gives you bonus mental stats and more items are merged into your form, meaning you can enchant for more skill buffs.

Is there any negative to Totem I am missing? They get the same spells, and the same everything else as far as I can see.

[Kuma]

Basically, no. They are a direct upgrade to the base class, and this saddens me. Shaman sort of fill the niche of caster druid, but you miss out on some stuff I think.

[SkipiusEsq]

Thank you, Kuma. I wonder if in the future totem druids would have reduced spell casting or something. Such that Totem are the ultimate shapechangers, shaman are the ultimate castor druids, and druids are a mix of both.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is a caster druid better or worse than a shaman?

[Kuma]

Better, I think. Others may disagree.

EDIT: The ability to use undead and diversity of spellbook may point others at Shaman, but then you're not really playing a conventional druid by using those powers.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Yeah, my general idea is that Shaman seem to be better at spellcasting, but caster druids still have so many tools in their tool box by comparison. I'd also argue 1 bonus epic feat is better than sf/gsf div.

I guess if you want to go undead, shaman is better. But I feel like monolithic shapes can be a great "get out of jail" card for almost any situation, even if you're primarily a caster.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Basically, no. They are a direct upgrade to the base class, and this saddens me. Shaman sort of fill the niche of caster druid, but you miss out on some stuff I think.

You take -4 to all your physical stats just for a new summon skin and a slightly better wild shape. The most optimal druid build requires EDR III which is IMPOSSIBLE to get on a totem druid for any race without a Con bonus, and even if you do get a racial Con bonus you'll be sacrificing most of your wisdom.. To make the most out of totem form you also really need to dip which bars you from the monolothic elemental forms too. Add onto this that the totem form has no magical damage property on its attack with low damage, cannot use gloves or any other weapons, so against a great number of enemies the only way to damage them is with your summons or by going dragon shape. The only thing Totem druid had going for it is AC, which got nerfed. It's still fairly high but when you have no melee damage and can't cast spells all you are really good for is a meat shield for your summons. If you want to heal your summons that means reverting to your humanoid shape which will have no AC and so little HP most melee characters can kill you in two hits. I'm not saying totem druid is bad, but after the nerf it took a much bigger hit than the more optimal EDR 3 mono build and it definitely has a lot more drawbacks. And I would expect it to get nerfed again before it ever sees any buffs.

[Griefmaker]

It has been a while since I have played a totem druid...but they still get the elemental and monolithic forms and all right? They just keep their totem skin?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

It has been a while since I have played a totem druid...but they still get the elemental and monolithic forms and all right? They just keep their totem skin?

They still get the elemental forms, the totem skin does not apply to those, neither do the stats. Monolithic forms require 28 druid levels. For totem form to be any good at all you'll need to dip. If you're fine with your totem form being garbage then yeah you can go 30 totem and use the mono forms, but you still won't have EDR III which means if you want to use mono forms you're 200% better off not taking a totem.

[Kuma]

right but they asked caster druid

building for conbased polymorph isnt that.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

right but they asked caster druid

building for conbased polymorph isnt that.

The OP asked if there was any mechanical benefit to not going totem druid. I have outlined all of those mechanical benefits in my posts.

[Chubbs]

Sure, getting -4 on Str/Con/Dex isn't a big deal once you're shifted, but there's also a ton of time that you're in your normal form. Having such low str/con/dex makes you unbelievably fragile (low HP, easily could be encumbered if you're deshifting midfight). I think it's a pretty fair trade-off, all things considered. Especially if you go for one of the objectively weaker (in terms of stats) totems.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Sure, getting -4 on Str/Con/Dex isn't a big deal once you're shifted, but there's also a ton of time that you're in your normal form. Having such low str/con/dex makes you unbelievably fragile (low HP, easily could be encumbered if you're deshifting midfight). I think it's a pretty fair trade-off, all things considered. Especially if you go for one of the objectively weaker (in terms of stats) totems.

Yep. You'll be able to carry about 20 lbs, maybe 100 with bull strength. You'll have saves in the low teens. And so little HP that even pure casters can melee you to death in a round with their magic staffs. Why anyone would claim totem is a direct upgrade to regular druid is beyond me. You basically sacrifice everything so you can RP as an animal, which druids can already do without taking a totem.

[Gwenneth_Corvain]

I am playing a level 30 raven-totem-druid - and I'm afraid totem-druid as it is right now is sadly something people should only take for RP-reason.
Mechanically they are, as said - a straight -downgrade- from a druid without totem-shape for the reasons said here.
The -4 to stats is not completely offset by the second skin armor which gives back +3 to the stats. Regular druids can wear that too, so it is not a benefit to going totem.

The totem-shift (only the totem shift) used to be an instant action which made totem-druids ALOT more useful as they were not forced to just take a full round of damage before they can get into their defensive shape. That has been axed. It takes a full round to get into totem-shape. At a -4 con-modifier that round hurts.

While in any polymorhed state you cannot use spells, healkits or anything besides potions. You are an epic caster without spells as a polymorphed druid. (not just totem)

Asalready said above: totem-shapes get amazing AC, but their attacks are unarmed, non-magical attacks without any means to change that. Weaponbuffs do not work since you are not wearing any weapon, glove-boni do not transfer over to the shape.
Anything with even x/+1 DR will resist your damage.
Speaking of the damage: You do 1d3+strenght-modifier damage. Totems at high level get a huge boost to strength - 50 strength is achieveable - maybe more - that means you are doing 1d3+20 damage per hit ..at 3 attacks per round against impenetratable DR on everything that has it. You would have to try hard on any other class that is supposed to melee things to get that low damage per attack.

The melee capability of the totemshape is virtually nonexistant. Your damage comes one of three things:
a.) your non-totem-shapes - the ones every druid gets - specifically the elemental shapes that use elemental, DR-priercing, higher base damage than your shape, come with their own DR, immunities, regeneration and unique auras or abilities (like permahast for a much-needed 4th attack per round)
b.) your summons and animal companion - either elementals that look like your totem-animals or the elemental swarm that looks like four of your totem-animals. In both cases these are 1:1 reskins of the elementals a regular druid gets. The one advantage you have as a totemdruid is that they can be easier to navigate due to not taking up as much space if you picked a smaller hitbox totem animal
c.) spells - which as a totemdruid means you will be in your extremely squishy +con baseform.

Basically nothing that a totemdruid does isn't done equally or better by a regular druid who did not suffer a 3x-4 stat penalty.

[Jagel]

Yup, totem improves your lvling from levels 12-20 ish, at which point it becomes mainly an rp thing. Very tanky but the -4 to physical stats makes for a real downside. Druids having access to the entire list of zoo spells has mitigated this slightly.

[Chubbs]

Does anyone know if there's been discussion about adding the ability for totem shape to penetrate even some level of DR?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Does anyone know if there's been discussion about adding the ability for totem shape to penetrate even some level of DR?

There was some discussion of it and I was hoping when the devs nerfed Totem AC from monk levels they would at least give us something like a +3 Magic Fang/Claw. But nope they just took away the AC and gave us nothing.

[Gouge Away]

Rat totem is really good as it grants 60 extra skillpoints. That's probably the only one worth the trade-off in 2020, if you know what to do with those points.

Otherwise totem druids are a legacy of Arelith 2008 (or whatever) and are desperately crying out for a review. Maybe it's time to just make them cosmetic like rangers?

[Gwenneth_Corvain]

Being consistent about the totem-theme would be nice as a cosmetic effect.
This class is all about mastering one particular shape but it turns out to be effective at all you are required to dismiss your whole lifes study of that shape an instead turn into an elemental or dragon like everyone else.

I would be quite happy if the elemental / dragonshape shifting cosmetically adhered to the totem shape as well so we could at least look the part that we took that path for.

[chris a gogo]

Im alittle confused iirc if you just cast stone skin on yourself your unarmed attacks when shifted count as if they were +5 for damage penetration purposes.

Unless it's changed for arelith?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Im alittle confused iirc if you just cast stone skin on yourself your unarmed attacks when shifted count as if they were +5 for damage penetration purposes.

Unless it's changed for arelith?

This is news to me. I just looked it up and it doesn't seem the spell is changed on Arelith and it does what you say.

Since creature weapons have special treatment with regards to penetrating damage reduction, this spell can be used to enhance the ability of many summoned (and polymorphed) creatures to penetrate the damage reduction of others. (Having X/+5 damage reduction allows attacks with creature weapons to pierce others' damage reduction as a +5 weapon.)

Now I feel dumb for not already knowing this. I thought stoneskin only gave damage reduction. There's still the issue of the spell wearing off quickly but one can always carry extra wands I guess.

[Gwenneth_Corvain]

except totemshapes do not use "creature weapons":

from our Wiki:

A polymorphed character doesn't have a creature weapon; it attacks unarmed. This also means that they will benefit from all unarmed feats, such as Stunning Fist, and monk UBAB. While they are polymorphed, they gain the feat Improved Unarmed Attack, so this means they never cause Attacks of Opportunity when attacking at melee.

in a previous incarnation i used to have monk-levels so i can confirm the totemshape is treated as attacking unarmed / uses the UBAB, not a creature weapon.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Ah, bummer. Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if the Elementals from Summon Creature and Elemental Swarm get creature weapons or something else.

[Drowboy]

I'm relatively certain they do. I know the base bioware shapes worked like this: if you transformed while wearing premo, your elemental shape would go through other people's premo, etc

What would a 2020 totem class look like?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I really just want a +3 magic claw/fang type of weapon that benefits from monk UBAB. I think +5 would be a bit overpowered TBH. You could have it scale with level like this:

Level 6: +1
Level 11: +2
Level 21: +3
Level 28: +4

Alternatives would be just letting us use gloves or weapons, or letting us cast Magic Fang/Greater Magic Fang on ourselves.