Regarding Character Descriptions and Background Info (RE: The Examine Box)

[msheeler]

I have a question that I would like to get some feedback from the DM team. Others are welcome to provide their thoughts on this as well...

Regarding the character description -

First of all I have always been under the impression that when you examine another player what you should get is a box that gives you some written description of what you are looking at. This can be basic, or elaborate depending upon the individual player's desire/creativity/energy.

Now some people put a lot up there (sometimes a bit too much for me and I skim) and some people do the other extreme and put literally nothing. Either is fine and things in-between are great! However, some people also put up things that I do not think that I should know. Like background stories and such, or things that they create their own skill point barriers for (i.e. spot 20: You notice that he is wearing a ring with an insignia of . . . ).

So, given all that - What is the general consensus or DM ruling about how I react to that?

If character Bob has a description that says

"His mother always told him he'd amount to nothing."

Can I meet character Bob and say something like -

"Bob? Oh, are you that guy going around telling everyone that his mother always said he's amount to nothing?"

Or should I try to pretend I simply did not read that in his description? Can I ignore said player "you need this skill point level to notice xyz" and just react like I noticed it? I mean it's there. Are we supposed to treat those descriptions as WYSIWYG?

On a side note - I do ask this because I know sometimes things are put into that box to give extra validity to what a player is trying to do, but at the same time I don't think that means I should have my character react differently than I think my character should react. That is if your character is a half-orc and you type in that box

"This is not a typical half-orc. He is well groomed and speaks common fluently and is very well liked by all that meet him"

That does not mean that I should suddenly decide that my character has to like the half-orc just because it says so. Instead I might react with "Oh god's it's that half-orc who pretends he's not a half-orc. I heard about this guy all over the place. You're a half-orc buddy, own up to it like a real man, well, orc."

But again, this is all information contained with-in a description. Should I instead ignore all that and wait to see the RP?

[Kuma]

If character Bob has a description that says

"His mother always told him he'd amount to nothing."

Can I meet character Bob and say something like -

"Bob? Oh, are you that guy going around telling everyone that his mother always said he's amount to nothing?"

I feel like in that particular case it's a way of creatively portraying a character that might be seen as glum or down on their luck, or perhaps proud of how they amounted to something. A creative liberty in fleshing a character out, rather than something be taken so literally.

[The Rambling Midget]

When it's something that you absolutely would have no way of knowing, like having disappointed parents, I'd ignore it, and chalk it up to an inexperienced player unclear on what should be in there.

There are a lot of things that might, at first glance, appear to be inappropriate, but are actually poetically phrased subtle hints that your character may pick up on. You'll always have to make a judgement call about what aspects of a description your character would notice.

The first half of the half-orc thing is good. It sets the character apart, and gives you a starting point for your character's opinion of them. The second half is tantamount to a god-emote, and may be freely ignored. In all likelihood, the player never intended to require that you like the character, but has simply phrased their intention unclearly.

[msheeler]

So, one thing to keep in mind is these are entirely made up examples I am using to try to illustrate the situation.

As a player that frequently uses disguises I know that I can easily sway a player's (and consequently a character's) reaction by carefully planting things in that description and it makes me wonder if the DM team has a general ruling or opinion on what things can go into the description box and what things cannot go in there. Is it all fair game as long as we abide by the PG server rating? If that is the case, is me using anything in there to direct my character's reactions fair game?

[Gouge Away]

I'm sure planting some hints are fine.

I wish descriptions had a tight character limit though. I have the feeling they'd be a lot more useful if players were forced to be concise.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There are characters who you will meet who will have character descriptions that ooze with a *feeling.*

It's hard to illustrate, and there is no one simple formula - but a player's personal writing style, language, structure, and thesis of their description can really elevate a character.

Whether its the use of a word in an untraditional space, the flow of the text, or the perspective of the description, some can just be utterly fantastic.

To me, a description that reads like a bit of a verse that is meant to encapsulate what a character *is*, is way more pertinent to my style of roleplay than a kind of formulaic deconstruction of attributes, origins, and physical appearance.

But everything in the description is fair game. I do think you should let clear efforts of players trying to flex a creative muscle a pass. I think if you put the (Spellcraft 25: you learn they're actually awesome), it's kinda eh. I appreciate the intent, but it's not for me.

Descriptions are like a first glance at a character (and player's) roleplay, and really should be more of a barometer of what you're getting into, than some kind of explicit literalism. They also can't tell you how you're supposed to feel, but they can try to paint a picture that invokes a particular feeling.

The Bob example - that's creative.

The half-orc example - that's creative.

Disguises? - go for it. be creative. Sometimes I intentionally left in the default descriptions to mess with people and avoid being metagame'd.

If you treat descriptions like things you would actually emote or say, that would be a good mindset for how to view them, ruleswise.

[msheeler]

Okay, but what if those subtle hints are things that are used to counter the things that are supposed to be penalties a character might normally have.

What if those are put in there to say, make playing a monster race into a character that is not treated like a monster. Or playing and outcast or a pirate get treated like they are not an outcast or a pirate?

What if my description of my pirate PC was all about how his parents were pirates and tattooed him as a child against his will and how he'd been trying to leave that life behind all these years, but the tattoos were a constant reminder yadda yadda yadda. Now I am conditioning a reaction of sympathy where there really shouldn't be one.

[The Rambling Midget]

You must RP what's on your character sheet.

Your description is part of your RP.

If there's enough bluff or perform on that character sheet to reasonably hide certain character elements, then that's sticking to what's on the sheet.

If you're a gnoll, goblin, kobold, or whatever else that doesn't have a standard humanoid shape, no amount of disguising is going to make any difference.

What if my description of my pirate PC was all about how his parents were pirates and tattooed him as a child against his will and how he'd been trying to leave that life behind all these years, but the tattoos were a constant reminder yadda yadda yadda. Now I am conditioning a reaction of sympathy where there really shouldn't be one.

This shouldn't be in your description at all. Motivations and personal histories are not directly observable.


I will say this, the staff has never and will never offer you a tightrope to walk. It's quite clear that you understand that these possibilities you're suggesting aren't conducive to fair and balanced RP, so I suggest exercising that judgement when writing your description, rather than searching for the limit of what you can get away with, because there will never be an absolute and all-encompassing statement.

Further, and as previously stated, most of what you're asking about isn't at all suitable for a description, and should be conveyed through RP, at which point your character's ability to convincingly lie will dictate what's appropriate. As always, you're free to have your character tell whatever story they want, and everyone else is free to not believe them.

[Skibbles]

Chiming in here - it would be really cool if there was a character limit on character descriptions as mentioned above.

There's little else to add as Rambling and Kuma covered it. Sometimes descriptions contain more of a poetic tone, rather than a literal one, and sometimes it's up to you to interpret it and act accordingly. I really don't think Bob is going to be upset if you don't bring up his strict upbringing, but when Bob seems like kind of a downer in his RP maybe you can infer that Bob is naturally that way instead of being a negative Nancy on purpose.

Personally I've never encountered a situation where someone has been upset at the way I've reacted to their description, or vice versa, but there's plenty of times that I simply haven't read a description, for lack of time, when it seems over ten paragraphs carefully describing the angle and color of each ear piercing, how often they smile, or how that booty sway.

[Griefmaker]

It would also be cool if there were both a character limit as well as a character minimum.

Overly long and verbose descriptions are problematic, but blank descriptions are worse. Blank descriptions are lazy. Or if a person is worried about being metagamed, then it is just sad.

[The Rambling Midget]

It would also be cool if there were both a character limit as well as a character minimum.

Overly long and verbose descriptions are problematic, but blank descriptions are worse. Blank descriptions are lazy. Or if a person is worried about being metagamed, then it is just sad.

That's the wrong way to view the problem. What you want is better writing, not less of it. If the first paragraph of a description gives you everything that you need to know about a character, at a glance, and the rest of it is additional detail for those interested in reading more, then the same goal has been accomplished. One could argue that the finer details can be conveyed through RP, but I can tell you from experience that it gets really, really, really tiring to emote a detailed description of a tattoo or personal token for the hundredth time, and nothing would be gained by disallowing that in descriptions.

The solution is mentorship, and especially offering creative writing assistance and resources.

[Ork]

Y'know, descriptions aren't required to play this game. They're purely fluff. WYSIWYG is the prevailing policy, and you can have a wonderful character with a blank description. Broad generalizations serve no one.

[chris a gogo]

Honestly if it's more than a single paragraph i lose interest and just scroll to the stats to decide how the character looks.

The stats are in fact your best guide to what the character looks like average is just that low and high are point to make comparisons with.

[Gouge Away]

Getting too verbose in descriptions is counterproductive. They're most useful when you can click, get a quick idea what you're seeing then start RPing. Reading paragraphs slows things down considerably, and it's not really fair to expect other players to read (and worse, remember) full pages of flourish.

Also, many of us aren't professional writers so the longer it is the clunkier it can be and clunky writing gets exponentially more difficult to parse the longer it runs.

Best to give the big picture in clear text with minimum embellishment like you were writing an advertisement or meeting a character in a script and save the minor details for IG description. If you want a special detail to be be noticed emote descriptions of it IG, people will pick up and ask about it.

I don't think it could or should be enforced but a standard cut and pasted form where the information of hair, eyes, skin, notable tattoos etc etc were in the same spot every time would be amazing and very helpful. You know... like a D&D character sheet, which are formatted like that for a reason instead of being pages of loose text.

[Eira]

Jeez. This is very discouraging for those who like to put effort into description.

How long is too long for y'all? I personally try to do:

First paragraph: At a glance things, height, build, coloring, etc
Second Paragraph: Clothing, equipment
Third paragraph: Extra details, markings, posture, sound of voice, etc
Any extra paragraphs: Only if needed, finer details, things someone might notice the longer they are in a scene

That way people can glance if they need, and if they want to go deeper that would be when they scroll. As far as I know, most people do something similar. But I personally love reading really long descriptions since roleplay is rarely so speedy that I am left behind if I am reading. I also tend to click examine 10+ times during a conversation, short or long, to always be processing the visuals as I rp, so it's rarely a one and done.

I really hope this doesn't turn into people getting penalized for enjoying the tool they have to give more imaginative visuals.

I agree backstory is a no when it comes to examine. But there is a lot to put into a character description that people don't have to put into their rp when interacting with you, but it's always a great feeling if they do. I also agree that you should keep at a glance descriptions to the first paragraph and everything else is optional.

[Talvenlapsi]

I must tag along with Eira. I love writing descriptions, and usually they are structured in very certain way, containing usually around 5 paragraphs. Which, taken how short every paragraph is, should be read-able by everyone if they are keen on RPing more with the character. Ofcourse in quick passing I don't expect people to stop to read it all, or in quick passing RP (take 15 minutes or less), I don't expect to go through it all.

But like Eira; I always put the general quick glance at the first one. Usually the first blurp is TLDR; of everything you would observe in a glance or from spending 5 minutes with my character. Next comes describing them from top to bottom in more detail, usually going from second paragraph being general; Hair, skin, eyes etc. Going down to their armor, what they're carrying with them and what's visible on their person, and usually ending up with possible specific insignias/markings etc.

I genuinely love it if people have skill checks. Cause not everyone can notice same things. If someone has [Spot 20]: and my character has 15, she won't notice it. But if I have friend with me that has spot 30 and they notice it? I think it makes fun RP to be like "oh, I didn't even notice that!". I respect those - they give little flavor and give you some use for your character skills in RP, which I think is great, since we've yet to have way to roll for skills as players.

Please don't go restricting people's creativity because some people don't want to read, either. I get turned off easily with "WYSIWYG" descriptions, because the models in-game aren't very variable, and if going just based on them.. Everyone looks relatively similar and such. But I think everyone is allowed to go for what they find most comfortable, but I do hope there won't be restrictions to either direction.

[Tyrantos]

I personally go with this simple rule: If i have to scroll, I consider my description too damn long.

[Xerah]

Jeez. This is very discouraging for those who like to put effort into description.

How long is too long for y'all? I personally try to do:

First paragraph: At a glance things, height, build, coloring, etc
Second Paragraph: Clothing, equipment
Third paragraph: Extra details, markings, posture, sound of voice, etc
Any extra paragraphs: Only if needed, finer details, things someone might notice the longer they are in a scene

That way people can glance if they need, and if they want to go deeper that would be when they scroll. As far as I know, most people do something similar. But I personally love reading really long descriptions since roleplay is rarely so speedy that I am left behind if I am reading. I also tend to click examine 10+ times during a conversation, short or long, to always be processing the visuals as I rp, so it's rarely a one and done.

I really hope this doesn't turn into people getting penalized for enjoying the tool they have to give more imaginative visuals.

I agree backstory is a no when it comes to examine. But there is a lot to put into a character description that people don't have to put into their rp when interacting with you, but it's always a great feeling if they do. I also agree that you should keep at a glance descriptions to the first paragraph and everything else is optional.

I strongly believe this is the best methodology for descriptions.

[Lexx]

Keep it brief and descriptive. It doesn't have to be comprehensive. Just a few features that stand out, garb and such someone might see glancing at the character. Back story is for finding out in RP.

If it becomes a long diatribe explaining what they did in X and Y year or a primer into their entire backstory it's not the place imho.

[msheeler]

I think my question got a little lost along the way. I didn't ask how to write one or what I should or should not include in the description. I've a system that works more than fine and often get compliments on my character description and the way it is set up.

The question was / is - How should I react when I see these other things. Do I go by "if you put it in there then it's common knowledge for me to use as I see fit for my character"? Or do I ignore things that just shouldn't be in there? What if those things are clearly meant to distract / sway / influence? Do I call people out for that?

[mjones3]

Feel free to ignore anything that does not describe their characters physical traits. Even then you can ignore it at will but don't be a cheeseball/jerk with it. Edited: You won't ever get a hard answer. Follow rules 1 and 4.

Even if they say its common knowledge, what common knowledge is varies a LOT. For me its common knowledge to how to work a computer. But there are many people out in the world who don't understand the difference between left and right clicking.

There is no need to call someone out unless they demand that you act on the information. And even then I would recommend ignoring them and simply reporting it to a dm.

Edited to further clarify.

[DM Rex]

I have to agree with mjones3 in this instance. In reality players may have written a description a while ago and forgotten about it. They may have gone on with a feeling and just wrote what they thought someone might find interest in.

There really isn't a hard rule on it, but if you couldn't see it in 60 seconds of looking at someone you could likely trim down a description by only including those physical objects and details. In reality it's a little personal flair. In truth to avoid confusion I wouldn't necessarily react to things in a description that aren't physical, just to avoid any possible perception of metagaming.

[Skibbles]

To your question msheeler, there's ultimately no rule I know of that forces you to act a certain way based on someone's description. I will outline an extreme example:

You see a Elf (Disguised) and you examine them. In the game, all you can see if a figure in a big robe and a hood. You fail your spot check and don't break the disguise.

However, Elf (Disguised)'s description still says they're a battle hardened drow with glowing red eyes and a fat super evil pendant to the Nine Hells prominently displayed around their neck and a big wicked logo to their infamous mega-murder-church fixed to his cloak.

What do you do? Ignore everything or act on the description? You'd be correct in either case. You could argue that a big bluff score doesn't outweigh a lazy attempt at assuming an alter ego, but on the other hand maybe the player just forgot about it and they'll think you're a big meanie for raising the alarm?

At the end of the day descriptions are just as subjective in writing as they are in reading. You can tell just by the variety of comments in this thread alone!

[Hinty]

If someone uses -disguise, puts on a hood, then walks around with their normal character description, including mention of insignia identifying their faction, religion or other massive red flag that they are "evil bad not supposed to be here", then I assume that the Character has been as lazy as the player and made a half hearted effort.

It is not all that hard to make up a makeshift description, hell, you don't even have to set a new description to go with every disguise, if its a throwaway disguise or just "Elf" or "Adventurer" just blank your description. In fact there is a system already baked into the server that will automatically swap your description to a preset one when you activate a disguise.

Anyone who uses disguises frequently really should put time and effort into preparing a number of disguise/description combos for future use.

Anyone who doesn't normally use it at all, and suddenly finds themselves in need of a disguise and hasn't time to set up a full outfit/description combo, well, is it not only natural that acting in haste, and doing something that you've never done before, your character might make an obvious mistake like leaving a tattoo uncovered, or forgetting that their swords scabbard has "In Banes name" embossed on the side?
You might have 50 Bluff, but if you've never tried to disguise yourself before and you are doing it in a hurry, all that 50 Bluff tells us is you COULD be a master at it.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I don't see the purpose of lengthy profiles. I add any visual things that my character model doesn't convey. For Garrett, it was describing his book bag and spell component pouch, and any sentimental jewelry.
Otherwise, height and hair colour are conveyed in-game on my model. My profile would just be repeating what people can already see. I don't know what to write for Corinne, because you can already see it all on her person. And the new female clothing models are so amazing, I don't really feel like there's much to say. In time that might change once she acquires more things and wealth like a packrat.