Lawful Evil in Cordor

[a shrouded figure]

I’m looking for some advice on RP as lawful evil... it’s a weird position.

As a player- I struggle with classically evil alignments as I’m generally super helpful in game and very friendly. Is it enough to be /reluctantly/ helpful (in character), distasteful of the classic “goody two-shoes”, while following the laws of the city? It would seem to be possible to join the guard as lawful evil- corrupt guardsman- but protecting anything outside my own interests seems inherently good.... so I guess o struggle. Does anyone have thoughts as to where the line between good and evil is drawn? Do o need to invest some mediocre amount into bluff to “pretend” to be caring when I’m actually looking out for my own interests (being a “secret” infernal warlock on the city)?

[Skarain]

Good doesn't mean nice. Likewise, to be "evil" does not mean that you have to be mean. Evil also doesn't mean that you 'have' to relish in the anguish of others, just as being a good person doesn't mean that you -must- do everything in your power to help someone else.

Lawful, Chaotic, Evil and Good are the ultimate ends of the spectrum, forces of the universe that are most well defined by angels, demons, devils, modrons and slaadi. Mortals aren't all black and white.

A city guard loyal to the city but willing to take bribes to, say, imprison a person on false charges can be lawful evil.

Try to answer the question: "What drives my character? What is their goal? Why do they want that?". Goals, personality and quirks are more important than alignment in my opinion.

Think of "Lawful" and "Evil" as a spice, like adding "salt" and "pepper" on a meal. It is already a meal before you add those, but they make it perfect. At the same time, you wouldn't eat only salt and pepper. That would taste awful.

The bottom line however is: Something drives your character, be it circumstances, past or background, to make a pact with Infernal forces. That does add it's mark on the character, and it is in the Devils interest to drive the character towards evil, be it through subtle manipulation or by terms of the contract.

[CNS]

Alignment is always tough and the source of a million and one debates in dnd.

We want to play complex characters and alignment is a part of that, dnd also uses alignment in a very blunt way with somethings being "Evil no matter what" or "Good no matter what". Its tough to square the circle sometimes.

But I think a good way of thinking about them is to think about how differing alignments might view certain things. Note: What I post below is a way of looking at it not a strict definition and the only way. Similarly I'm going to talk about the law because of the context you've given, lawful doesn't /have/ to mean the actual law, it could be a personal code or something similar.

But lets consider the law and a Cordor Guard of various alignments and how they might see it. Again these are just examples to illustrate the differences not commandments that must be followed.

First lets think about Evil. Evil is characterized most easily by selfishness as oppose to the altruistic nature of good. To that we can apply the order/chaos axis.

So a lawful Evil Cordorian guard might look at the law and his enforcement of it as a tool. He is the master of the law and bending it and using it to his advantage. He'll never break the letter of the law but he'll use your naïve faith in the spirit of it to manipulate and get his way. He wont take bribes to break the law (and they are against the law anyway) but he law is how he gets what he wants. He enjoys the hierarchy and structures because it suits him, if others get lost in the maze of legalese then its their fault because they are dumb and he'll use his superior knowledge and position to his own advantage. He is a tyrant.

The neutral evil Cordorian guard might look at the law differently, she is the epitome of selfishness. The law is useful when it benefits her, but an irrelevance when it gets in her way. She'll happily play along as it suits her, either to fit in and play a role for some other advantage but ultimately has no respect for the law beyond its use to her. She will happily take bribes and is likely to actively solicit them if gold is her gain. She is the archetypal corrupt cop, she skillfully uses her position to provide her with a layer of protection and uses the law and its power to her advantage one moment and casually disregards it the next whatever suits her plans the best.

The chaotic evil Cordorian guard likely joined by mistake or for a laugh. While the neutral evil guard has no respect for the law, the chaotic evil one actively hates it. Laws are what the weak use to hide from the strong. The chaotic evil guard does what he wants, when he wants and damned be anyone who gets in his way. He's not stupid of course, he's ended up in the guard through whatever circumstances, he understands what the guard is and how it works and really doesn't want to end up in prison, but he thinks the whole thing is idiotic. He's likely to spend his entire time in the guard sabotaging it and showing it to be the useless mockery it is. He'll disobey orders as it suits him and rankles under anybody in a position of power over him.

You can flip it around and do good this way too.

The Lawful good character might see the guard as a noble and righteous institution. She wants to see a just land where people follow the true and good laws. She'll fight to ensure the laws of the land are correct and fair while using her position and the law to defend the weak and the helpless against those that would take advantage of them. She might also be a master of the law but in contrasts to the LE guard, she uses this mastery to bend the law such that it works for the people and against those that would try and corrupt it.

The Neutral Good character is like the NE guard, he also sees the law as something that can be useful but is ultimately second fiddle to actually doing good in the world. For him the law is important as long as it leads to what he see's as the right outcomes. But should the law begin to fail, a thief might get away because of a procedural error, that wont sit with him. He's very willing to dispense with the law to ensure justice is done. The 'good cop' that breaks the laws or ignores the rules to get justice done could be a NG archtype.

And the chaotic good guard might also find themselves a guard member by circumstances beyond their control. She's got a heart of gold and just wants to help people but doesn't get why you need all these rules and laws to do so. Can't you just do the right thing and have that be enough? She's constantly breaking minor regulations and ignoring her superiors. They just don't get it. The law is always getting in the way of the doing the right thing, or it slows everything down.

Again these are not me saying you have to play these alignments this way, or that this is the only way of playing them and other ways are not valid, or that you might not agree with them. I'm just trying to use examples to show how different alignments might approach being a cordorian guard to help illustrate the differences between them.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

If you play any kind of evil on surface and don't want to just constantly PVP I'd recommend going for a very subtle form of evil. If you act like a jerk to everyone you will be treated like a jerk. I've seen some people attempt evil characters on the surface and then act all :surprisedpikachuface: when they get corpsebashed or exiled for metaphorically kicking someone else's dog. And then there's the ones who walk up and down the roads with summoned zombies and devils and try the whole "It's not mine!" schtick when a fully warded level 30 paladin squad runs up on them. That's not clever or original and almost never ends well for the person who thinks every lawful/good character on the server is stupid enough to fall for that.

People really hate to be told this, but there are places on the server for evil characters. If you play an evil character outside of those places expect a fish out of water experience where most people won't like you unless you walk on eggshells pretending to be good and making sure you never break any laws or anger the wrong person, and if you're going to do that why not just play an edgy neutral character that can actually fit in and accomplish things?

Another problem with "secret evil" characters is their players almost never actually want to be caught and assume the role of antagonist or villain. They want to be part of the good guys and friends with the good guys and treated like a good guy while they also burn down orphanages and kidnap princesses. And that just doesn't work in this setting if we want to keep any kind of immersion.

[Hinty]

Lawful Evil guard can be kind, friendly and helpful to good people, and utterly ruthless and draconian to anyone who harms the city he protects.

Criminals deserve no quarter, only by putting the fear of retribution and punishment into peoples hearts can you truly protect them from those who would take advantage, yes it is a shame that good people may have to suffer some fear and trepidation, or even feel as if their freedoms are restricted, but it is for their own good, if people truly fear what will happen if they break the law, then everyone is much safer, and overall, happier, than they might be in a city rife with crime.

This character skirts the line between Neutral and Evil, and you can easily lean them into one or the other depending on how you play them. But alignment is a gradient. Not every evil person is pure unadulterated evil. Some are just not very nice.

Edit: If you are truly going hidden warlock, then yes. Some bluff is almost certainly needed unless you want to be discovered the moment someone notices you're casting rather a lot of those low level spells or whichever. Also remember that warlocks have to have entered their pact willingly, and whilst "I am sacrificing my soul so I can gain the power to protect others" is a willing deal, the creature that you now work for is going to be working to corrupt you. I would argue that a hidden warlock works best when they are utterly, irredeemably evil, and are hiding their nature to get what they want. In the case of a Cordor Guard, perhaps Chancelorship in order to trick the city into a ritual that sacrifices the souls of everyone in the city as payment to receive back your own soul from your patron?

[DangerDolphin]

Being a secret warlock will be a ticking time bomb.

The vast majority players are very good sports about it, and will ignore the fact you have strange VFX going off and spells they don't recognise.

However, it only takes one slip from you (Someone seeing you using your devil summons) or a player just deciding they want to 'win' against you after seeing the VFX, for "X IS A WARLOCK" on the public notice boards, at which point things will likely come crashing down.

Some people really enjoy this kind of ride though, and you can always flee to Andunor or Sencliff afterwards.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

Secret warlock is entirely doable. I played a warlock yuan-ti to 27, joined the Cordor Guard and more without ever being exposed as either a yuan-ti or a warlock. I eventually got bored and rolled the character, but surprisingly the only evil deeds I got caught on were unrelated to being either a warlock or a yuan-ti.

I also ran a disguise while levelling, and very few people leveling alongside me managed to break it. That said, undercover warlock was more exciting conceptually than in practice for me. Having done it once, I wouldn't recommend it to another. Characters who have secret motivations but don't have to hide half or more of their abilities are generally more fun.

[chris a gogo]

Depends entirely on how you do it.

There are certain actions that will make you universally hated.
Necromancy, Infernalism.

Play an evil concept that doesn't use either of those rather tired ponies and you will do fine as a LE guard,chancellor,noble or barmaid.
I know a few Evil PC's in Cordor that avoid those things and are generally welcome in most company including paladins.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Do o need to invest some mediocre amount into bluff to “pretend” to be caring when I’m actually looking out for my own interests (being a “secret” infernal warlock on the city)?

The way I go about it is, I "roll" an imaginary d20 in my head every time my character says something that goes beyond or against what they actually think. This means that even a character that has no points in bluff could reasonably get away with a lie here and there. I tend to sprinkle in emotes or words that could reasonably give away the truth and scale those based on the (modified) points in bluff. The better my characters get at it the more bluff I add to their sheet (though I have to say I sometimes take into account the opportune time to add points in bluff; e.g., when I take levels in class that has bluff as a primary skill, which in case of a Warlock is a primary skill). Also, this does not mean that my character will blurt out things that would harm them if they have low bluff (in that case they mostly just remain silent if their wisdom and intelligence allows it).

[Gouge Away]

Someone who only cares about the law or other rules and has no compassion could be Lawful Evil. There are LN gods that support both LE and LG so you don't have to be a devil worshipper, at least at first, you could start with a decent LN deity and switch to hard LE later. I think LE could find themselves very much at home in a city's government somewhere. Parking enforcement officers IRL are almost all Lawful Evil for example..

Also, I believe you can still take a warlock pact late in the game if you're a bard. It's a tiny bit cheeseball to play a bard you know will become a warlock later on but I myself wouldn't hold it against you and it's not a bad way to make friends and contacts first then fall to the dark side later. It's just one of those things that's cool when it's seldom done but you don't want to see too often.

Last thing about "evil", you don't have to be "pure evil" at day one even if that's your alignment. You can play someone who's thinks they're a good person but is easily corrupted or who builds resentments and it eventually consumes them. Long term character development is a great thing.

[Drowboy]

It's a tiny bit cheeseball to play a bard you know will become a warlock later on

For a good while, this was the only way to do it, intentionally. It's fine.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Some advice for just being playing evil, in general (a lot of this can be applied to good, too):

a. "subtle" evil is fine and all, and there's an element of realism required to not just be dumb and oust yourself - but you're playing evil for a reason. not neutral. force conflict. be nefarious. be selfish. be unlikeable. you're evil.

b. the philosophical argument about whether evil is about intent/action can go on forever. pick a side of the coin. are you a "for the greater good" kind of evil - putting goals above actions? or are you an "elevation of the self" kind of evil, with innately selfish goals, and often kind/ambiguous actions?

c. villainry =/= evil. villainry =/= antagonist. evil =/= antagonist.

there's a lot to a character. An antagonist is someone who opposes your character. My paladin's greatest foes were largely other paladins. My Sharran's greatest enemy was an infernalist. They were antagonists.

Antagonists are found in all alignments.

A villain is someone diametrically opposed to a hero. So where there is "Team Good", a villain is a part of "Team Evil." However, a villain could be non-evil, but working with Team Evil, for whatever reason (oftentimes, these are the grey guard LN characters or the dumb murderhobo CNs)

Evil characters are not necessarily villains. A LE evil monk could work a lot with paladins to destroy criminal scum. They could, by a lot of optics, be a part of "Team Good." However, it is important to recognize that AT SOME POINT there must be either a) a corruption of the paladin or the redemption of the LE monk, or b) a conflict.

'tea and crumpets' roleplay occurs when this eventuality is ignored or discarded for OOC convenience or poor characterization.

anyways, that's my diatribe.

just remember to be evil at some point. otherwise, play something else.

[Wethrinea]

The nice thing about LE is that your character can fit into almost any society. After all, law is the very basis of society to begin with. So unlike the NE character who is bound to break the social contract at some point, or the CE maniac who will murder his way into exile, a LE character can thrive in more or less any society while remaining true to their alignment.

Evil can be seen in two ways; either as the active instigator of suffering unto others, or as the total indifference to the suffering of others.

The LE guard could be deeply patriotic towards his city, and do everything in his power to protect it and it's people. He could aid adventurers whose goals align with those of the city, whether they are a gang of mercenaries or paladins-in-training. He could give alms to the poor of the city because that is what is expected of him, or because it strengthens the city, or keeps them off the streets so that its glory is not diminished.

What makes him evil is that he will stop at absolutely nothing, and would murder, torture, take hostages or bargain with devils to keep the city safe in his eyes. Or use his power within the letter of the law to purge what he sees as subversive elements that threaten his city. He may take no direct pleasure in this, but he will be totally indifferent to the suffering he inflicts on others in order to do what he sees as his duty.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The nice thing about LE is that your character can fit into almost any society. After all, law is the very basis of society to begin with. So unlike the NE character who is bound to break the social contract at some point, or the CE maniac who will murder his way into exile, a LE character can thrive in more or less any society while remaining true to their alignment.

Evil can be seen in two ways; either as the active instigator of suffering unto others, or as the total indifference to the suffering of others.

The LE guard could be deeply patriotic towards his city, and do everything in his power to protect it and it's people. He could aid adventurers whose goals align with those of the city, whether they are a gang of mercenaries or paladins-in-training. He could give alms to the poor of the city because that is what is expected of him, or because it strengthens the city, or keeps them off the streets so that its glory is not diminished.

What makes him evil is that he will stop at absolutely nothing, and would murder, torture, take hostages or bargain with devils to keep the city safe in his eyes. Or use his power within the letter of the law to purge what he sees as subversive elements that threaten his city. He may take no direct pleasure in this, but he will be totally indifferent to the suffering he inflicts on others in order to do what he sees as his duty.

This is beautiful, and can apply equally across an entire spectrum of followers of LE deities and devils that I could think of. I also believe that while there are certainly more methods that are also correct than just this one, that if you're really looking to play an evil character that isn't shunned by civilized societies, this path or something that cleaves closely parallel to it is the most likely for success.