svirfneblin and surfacers?

[freddo]

Looking for some clarification around svrifneblin RP. Obviously they are withdrawn and secretive and mistructing, but

recently the svirf town got assimilated into brogenstein settlement for resources and government.

In effect this would imply that any settlement trading with the dwarves (e.g. Guld, Bendir, Cordor), also includes the svirfs.

however svirfs are considered UD race, so there is meant to be hostility with the surfacers? yet it is possible to have a svirf paladin, or harper ...

Svirfs are tolerated or welcomed in these communities?

[Dalenger]

Tolerated? Yes.
Accepted? No.
Svirfs have always received the short end of the stick. While not necessarily evil, they exist with and have the skin color akin to races that are known to be evil. So naturally, people don't trust them. Inversely, a trusting svirf is a dead svirf in the UD, as they are pretty much considered dinner or slaves by anything that lives down there. RP svirf-surface relations as such, and you'll be fine.

[Green2Bee]

.... What? No, Svirfs are good creatures, like other gnomes. They are at constant war with UD races because UD races try to kill them, but not with creatures of the surface. They are part of the gnome family and of course would be welcome in any gnome community (The module-gnome location has svirfs, rock gnomes, and forest gnomes). Svirfs also traditionally enjoy strong relations with dwarves, in their defense of underground areas against drow and other nefarious beings of the UD.

Non-gnomes wouldn't have much appreciation for svirfneblins since it's a mystery why anyone would willingly live below with aboleths, drow, beholders, illithids, and who knows what other dangers lurk down there, but as far as gnomes are concerned, they are like any other gnome of a different stroke. There is nothing forbidden a svirfneblin from coming to the surface, just like you see gazillion and twelve humans walking around Andunor and Cordor exclaiming their worship of Shar without ever being banned from a single town.

Svirfneblins themselves are quite distrusting because of their harsh realities that they grew up in, and are unlikely to open up to non-gnomes, however. Given the non-gnomes view of svirfs as total weirdos and svirfs themselves being so alert for outsider dangers, there would certainly pose an IC challenge to forming huggle-bunny relationships... But that's about it.

If you do get harassed, I would treat such as IC rather than OOC lack of knowledge on the playerbase. It might be the latter, certainly, but you can ICly handle situations like that letting them know svirfs are by no means innately evil, nor cursed, nor mated with demons (drow) or devils (duergars), nor banished by the gnome pantheons. Gnomes are so chill, they keep Urdlen as part of their god circle, and that mole is insane.

[P Three]

Svirfs are not evil. They DO occasionally see a bit of getting shafted for simply being UDers and it is completely reasonable for a character who is not as lorewise as their player to think "Drow=evil, duergar=evil, orog=evil, so svirf = evil." Like Dalenger and Green said.

[Lorkas]

Historically for Arelith, there has also been at least one infamous necromancer svirfneblin who plagued the surface (Bendir especially) with a dracolich summon.

It wouldn't be totally outrageous for that to be the only svirfneblin some surfacer has ever heard of.

[Cuchilla]

During a couple of years, I had the opportunity with Fraya Stensamler to check different ways to play a svirf, and without telling anyone, that this is THE way you should play I svirf, I do think that these are some general outlines, that might be useful:

Unlike the rest of the underdark races, svirfs were lead into the Underdark by Callarduran Smoothhands, and actually like to live in the Underdark. Not just their passion for gems, but for the beauty of the Underdark in general. That doesn't mean they like the rest of the races there.

Svirfs have a strong sense of community among themselves but very much operating from their home village, with minimal interactions with other races. Svirfs are meant to be a reclusive race who shun and are wary of outsiders. I see the relations between Brogendenstein and Blingstonhold as a possibility for Dwarf/Svirf interaction and open another axis there. But I have a hard time seeing svirfs using that route to roam the surface.

This of course means that to play a svirfs is quite restrictive, and frustrating for svirf players. But on the other hand, there's always to possibility to play a surface gnome instead.

[Sab1]

This is how I played my Svirf. Untrusting to all because I figured she probably didn't have a lot of experience or knowledge with surfacers. Most svirf villages probably never get a lot of surfacer travel or visits. So at first her mindet was surfacers were probably just as bad as underdarkers. Over time she started to see the difference, though the actions of evil surfacers caused her to always have severe mistrust to those she didn't know well. Most surfacers she encountered mistrusted her since they knew just as little about a svirf, most knew they live in the UD so many treated her as being no different then drow. Not to mention being a svirf, she was never judged by the good svirf but always compared to the few troublemaking svirf who came topside. For me my svirf going topside was a lot of caution at first.

I like the Brog/Svrif combining since at rp options. I could see conflict arising as one side maybe gets a bit overbearing on the other. Maybe not a war but I could see situations were the svirf maybe feel resentment that maybe they don't feel the dwarves treat them as equals in the partnership.

[Rivace_Silver]

[11/25/2015 12:51:22 PM] Mr Adam: right
[11/25/2015 12:51:25 PM] Mr Adam: there is cannon
[11/25/2015 12:51:31 PM] Mr Adam: males go out women stay inside
[11/25/2015 12:51:37 PM] Mr Adam: no one leaves
[11/25/2015 12:51:37 PM] Mr Adam: ever
[11/25/2015 12:51:56 PM] Mr Adam: ocasionally they get wiped out by the drow the duergar and everyone else
[11/25/2015 12:52:11 PM] Mr Adam: pc's are the advernturers... the rare breed.
[11/25/2015 12:52:17 PM] Mr Adam: trust is a massive thing.
[11/25/2015 12:52:30 PM] Mr Adam: expect death from everywhere.
[11/25/2015 12:52:38 PM] Mr Adam: svirf dont trust svirf.
[11/25/2015 12:52:49 PM] Aaron Slyder: no? wait I thought that was the only exception
[11/25/2015 12:52:52 PM] Mr Adam: they are polite, not trusting
[11/25/2015 12:52:55 PM] Aaron Slyder: i read about it somewhere..
[11/25/2015 12:52:59 PM] Aaron Slyder: oh .. ok
[11/25/2015 12:53:13 PM] Mr Adam: it is very hard even for svirf to gain trust from another that is not blood related
[11/25/2015 12:53:25 PM] Aaron Slyder: ohh ahh that was it.
[11/25/2015 12:53:30 PM] Mr Adam: you are polite, you engage in the village life and protect each other but actual trust is tough
[11/25/2015 12:53:46 PM] Aaron Slyder: so just random other svirnf found in the caves .. bad ..
[11/25/2015 12:53:55 PM] Mr Adam: focus on that as your core, then trusting colourful drow merchants... is a simple one to deal wtih
[11/25/2015 12:54:03 PM] Mr Adam: no not bad... just not trusting...
[11/25/2015 12:54:18 PM] Mr Adam: polite... help...etc
[11/25/2015 12:54:25 PM] Mr Adam: even friendly
[11/25/2015 12:54:41 PM] Mr Adam: svirf should at a loud noise or unexpected draw of a weapon.... disapear
[11/25/2015 12:55:09 PM] Mr Adam: lots of rp goes into establishing escape routes, bolt holes, places others can not go
[11/25/2015 12:55:37 PM] Mr Adam: the bravest strongest most macho of svir barbarians... still has their personal routes planned...
[11/25/2015 12:56:04 PM] Mr Adam: everything and everyone in the ud wants to kill svirf... so you plan for each of them in turn
[11/25/2015 12:56:25 PM] Mr Adam: rather than playing timid... look at why they are that way, makes it easier to pull off.

[11/25/2015 1:05:45 PM] Mr Adam: general tip is just remember the main doctrine of svirf... and remember that even as a lvl 30 uber build... the whole of the ud, want to kill and torture you and find out where your family are and go take it out with their armies... thats not even touching on the horros of the environment that wants to finish them off there is always something to temper your chars rp
[11/25/2015 1:06:40 PM] Aaron Slyder: why though...
[11/25/2015 1:06:47 PM] Aaron Slyder: why do all the races want to kill svirnfs.
[11/25/2015 1:06:54 PM] Mr Adam: svirf are good....
[11/25/2015 1:07:11 PM] Mr Adam: svirf hoard vast amounts of precious stones etc
[11/25/2015 1:07:25 PM] Mr Adam: they are not warlike
[11/25/2015 1:07:30 PM] Mr Adam: the ud is a warzone
[11/25/2015 1:07:44 PM] Mr Adam: there is finite space, finite resource
[11/25/2015 1:07:57 PM] Mr Adam: its the underground equivilent of the world on avatar
[11/25/2015 1:08:26 PM] Mr Adam: the whole world is designed to kill you, so find the safe places or kill those who have foudn them and take them over
[11/25/2015 1:08:53 PM] Mr Adam: or the one word answer
[11/25/2015 1:09:00 PM] Mr Adam: EBIL!!!


Posted this conversation .. i took non-relevant posts out .. Mostly because ive never heard it explained quite as good as this .. Follow this .. proceed to enjoy good svirnf Rp..

[soundsofastream]

Besides the untrusting nature of svirfs. I'd like to correct some posts above. On the whole, Svirfneblin are neutral, not evil OR good. Some sway towards good, some sway towards evil but the vast majority are neutral of some type or other.

They've always had some kind of positive relationship with Shield Dwarves and Rock Gnomes, so it makes sense for them to be close to those two other races. However, they'd never give up their independence completely, which has got me a little perplexed at the current developer arrangements but we're trying to rp around the current restrictions to suit the situation somehow.

It's also not entirely true that svirfneblin are food for everything else. They often trade with outside races, in neutral areas away from their homes. In fact, in Drik Hagunen, Gracklstugh and other duergar cities, there's often a svirfneblin contingent living in those cities. So again, it depends on the local environment.

But yeah, mostly they just want to be left alone and share that characteristic with forest gnomes and many rock gnome communities. Staying in the world but apart from it is the gnomish survival mechanism. That's why they're called "The Forgotten Folk".

[Lorkas]

However, they'd never give up their independence completely, which has got me a little perplexed at the current developer arrangements but we're trying to rp around the current restrictions to suit the situation somehow.

There are several races on Arelith that don't behave the way that lore says that they "should". We're on a small island, and in order to make lasting RP we have to bend the lore a little bit.

The bending of the svirfneblin lore isn't greater, I would say, than what we've done on Arelith with lightfoot halflings (they practically never settle down in one place to make a settlement), halflings as as a whole (they don't really fear death and would probably not use raise dead or resurrection magic to pull a halfling back from the Green Fields), goblins and gnolls (they are surface creatures), and kobolds (they only live separately from all other humanoid races).

I think the devs have done what they think increases long-term interaction in each of the cases above, and with svirfneblin. My first 2 years or so here I mainly played lightfoot halfling characters, and had to deal with the "strangeness" of Burrowhome (called Fort Bendir at the time) in character. Out of character, though, I recognize that it would not be very interesting for halfling characters to appear on Arelith and stay for only a few in-game weeks before moving on to other islands (i.e. character deletion).

[Sab1]

But this doesn't have to be a bad thing, opens up some rp between svirf and Brog, doesn't necessarily mean pvp but no reason why every svirf or dwarf needs to openly accept the merging. So rp being unhappy, or rp svirf feeling the dwarves may not treat the svirf as equals In the merging. If it has merged will the dwarves resist the first time a svirf may try to be thane? This opens up a lot of stuff imo.

[Rivace_Silver]

i dont think a svirnf would try to be thane ..

there are rules meant to be bent and there are rules that should never be broken ..

the fact that svirnf fear everything is trying to kill them is paramount to their rp .. otherwise what makes them unique to any other gnome or halfling..

honestly i see a lot of players improperly RPing their races.. and sure its their choices but im disappointed in the players choices to NOT rp the canon of the race and i think it sets precedent and breaks more then it creates in terms of Rp and future RP .. i.e. someone sees the outgoing freindly svirnf and thinks svirnf are -that way- ...

Svirnf are not neutral .. they are a good race ... an underdark race .. but a good race.

[Lorkas]

Here it is from Underdark, Rivace:

Alignment: Svirfneblin believe that their survival depends on avoiding entanglements with other races, so they strongly favor neutral alignments. While they rarely wish others ill, neither are they especially willing to take risks on behalf of others.

[Sab1]

Being a rp server means having to adjust a few things, fearing everything is trying to kill you is fine. But unless there are other svirf for you to rp with you are going to have to be a little trusting in order to have anyone to rp with. Why wouldn't a svirf try to be thane? Easy for them to see maybe Brog is taking sides and possibly endangering the svirfs, maybe they want strict neutrality. If they are part of Brog now that means good and bad for their race. If Brog decides to war with the drow it will most likely be the svirf who first suffer. So they have interests and concerns now in what goes on in Brog. Hence why having a say in leadership is important.

[Lorkas]

This is verging into some things that are already being addressed in game through RP.

[freddo]

it's an odd concept to get around,

DM's have queried RP of svirfs adventuring with surfacers in the past, as meant to be hostile toward eachother.

yet now they're part of Brog, and if they took citizenship could indeed get elected with numbers.

is a bit confusing

[Sab1]

I think it was more of if a svirf was just walking around being all friendly to everyone, hugging strangers, and such they DM's would look at it being a bit strange. But to my knowledge they have been allowed in all surface towns for awhile now, so it shouldn't be auto hostile to each other. I think the key is cautious. A svirf might not hate everyone on the surface, but until they venture there awhile and get to know folks, they should probably be somewhat cautious to strangers. After all when they are in the UD they probably see how many surfacers willing deal with the drow and own slaves. So they should be pretty wary around surfacers.

[Full Moon]

i dont think a svirnf would try to be thane ..

there are rules meant to be bent and there are rules that should never be broken ..

the fact that svirnf fear everything is trying to kill them is paramount to their rp .. otherwise what makes them unique to any other gnome or halfling..

honestly i see a lot of players improperly RPing their races.. and sure its their choices but im disappointed in the players choices to NOT rp the canon of the race and i think it sets precedent and breaks more then it creates in terms of Rp and future RP .. i.e. someone sees the outgoing freindly svirnf and thinks svirnf are -that way- ...

Svirnf are not neutral .. they are a good race ... an underdark race .. but a good race.

That must make for a very frustrating game experience. Not only is it very judgemental but it's also a bit ridiculous to judge a character without knowing their story. Especially considering your perception of what a Svirfneblin is, isn't universal.

I am one of the most recent addition to Gnome Nation and also happen to be a Svirfneblin. I have observed a few things.

1. Resources are limited, some gods don't have more than a few sentences written about them and finding detailed culture information is very difficult. Our own forums have almost nothing and I have searched far and wide and yielded little. (there is serious need of a resource thread like there is for other races and groups). The few sources that do exist sometimes conflict leading to different ideas about the nature of the race with no universal standard.

2. You have to adapt to the gaming world in which you are placed and the circumstances you are working in.

A Dwarf commented to my character how difficult our Svirfneblin Regent (now Queen) was to deal with. My character pointed out it was a big adjustment to us to live with other Gnomes let alone being in the Dwarves basement. In my opinion the Svirfneblin would leave and form their own colony but the numbers aren't there and that is why we were lumped together, playability.

Another ironic twist is there is a slight Svirfneblin majority. There are more active Svirfneblin than all other Gnome races combined, in fact we have a King and Queen of the Gnomes who are both Svirfneblin.

So we have a xenophobic race that rules over other kinds of Gnomes and live in the Dwarves basement. How do we reconcile all of this ?

A big picture player knows they have to be inclusive while trying their best to honor their character. Prejudice against other gnomes pretty much has to be dropped because they are a minority who need a place to stay and people to talk to. They are odd but they are still Gnomes.

You bristle at being ruled by Dwarves (and probably secretly wish independence) but are pragmatic enough to know that you are in better hands than you would be with any UD race and that if you want to assert your goals, concerns etc you need to engage the Dwarves and have a voice in government. This particular dynamic is alive and well and has generated a lot of rp .

Now we add the Hins who are also close neighbours and you all fall under the umbrella of "earthkin" . They are friendly, helpful and pretty non threatening.

How long are you going to live a few minutes away from Dwarves and Hins and fear them ? The current geographical change has placed Svirfneblin closer to the surface than the UD in terms of area access. How long before you start exploring the areas around your new home ? Security reasons alone make it a good idea and resource needs confirm this.

In my mind we have a Svirfneblin race that is evolving as a result of these changes. Their perceptions are colored by those of the Rock Gnomes who do not have all the same fears and concerns. Ask a Rock Gnome when the last time Gnomes were attacked by Hins and Dwarves and you pretty quickly get the picture that though they are weird, those two races are not a danger to you except for the odd renegade which your own race has the same problem with.

At first it seems too be good to be true but your interaction with these races confirm that they are friendly not dangerous. Some are going to have perception changes, some are not. How many years before Svirf-Rock Gnome culture become a blend of the two ?

I also think the fearfulness projected onto Svirfs are a bit overstated. They have merchants and a history of commerce with the Duerger and Drow among others. These merchants may not be typical in their comfort with outsiders but they most certainly must exist.

As for a Gnome becoming Thane ? that would not happen. Much as the current Regent (Thane in waiting) treats the Gnomish King/Queen as partners and rulers of their own people, if a Gnome were to ever win an election I would expect the Thane/Regent would still be treated as an equal partner and leader of a separate people.

So Rivace_Silver, next time you see an outspoken Svirfneblin instead of being disappointed in them and deciding they are bad players I suggest you find out why they are that way. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[soundsofastream]

Also, Xalanthia is an arch mage, has travelled to most of the planes of the known multiverse and knows more secrets than most other characters know (and guards them jealously). I created her, back in the day where she was an apprentice of General Dredoc of the Abyssal Forces (a crazed gnome whose name was feared across the lands). She's far from typical of her race but I have her sharing the same characteristics of her race, with the adaptation of years of being a mage first and foremost. Given she's one of the more powerful characters I know of, in the game world, she's not going to be fearful of everything around her.

So as you can see, it's the interactions and the experiences that lead to individual characters adapting to their environment. She's also from a time that's still very untrusting of outsiders. Perhaps, when the new generation take over the leadership roles, they may react differently to the dwarves, but she's kind of set in her ways. She prefers to sit in her darkened 'tower' or ancient crypts studying forgotten lore and old relics, or travelling the planes. You must remember that the founding fathers of Blingstonhold, were the Cradfoots from Grond and they were Ibrandul/Shar worshippers...and from the tradition of the old gnome Tyrant Skeflock. Xalanthia is a relic from that bygone era...maybe even the inheritor of ancient knowledge...

The fact that Xalanthia has inherited leadership surprised even her and now she has to live with a bunch of dwarves on top of her with a silver dragon on their laps and somehow be friendly to them. haha!

Anyhow, it's a very confusing world for svirfneblin, the decision to create the Grotto was generated from a rockgnome known as Mr. White and a svirfneblin known as Breena Seamfinder (who was a follower of Baravar Cloakshadow) and by secret meetings and agreements, it was formed. I don't think they thought of the consequences of it. Putik was the one I think, who may have verbally handed over the keys to Brogdenstein. However, there was no signed treaty, so it's left everyone in a bit of a quandary to figure out how to adapt to their new environment which in turn, has created some very fun rp.

[Cuchilla]

There are books in game, tomes circulating in the book matrix telling the story of Arelith svirfneblin from pre-historic times to the revived (2nd) Earthkin Pact, signed by the Callarduran Smoothhand regent Fraya and Brogendenstein Thane, and confirmed by Bendir. Like other books, they reflect the in game events, meetings etc, and they are coloured by those who wrote them. Like everything else. Remember that it's not necesarily a bad thing that you will find several versions of what happened. That puts you in the situation that you can choose the version you like best

[soundsofastream]

No the Earthkin Alliance, is different. It was all three settlements (Blingstonhold, Brogdenstein and Burrowhome) entering into an alliance. That's different to being permanently 'vassalled' as it were, to Brogdenstein with no say in the matter.

[Cuchilla]

At this point, it might be useful to recapitulate what new svirfneblins meet in the starting area, as said by Peturbellus, the Grotto Master:

If you stay within the areas of Brogendenstein you should be safe enough, but do not stray into the mountains beyond, or the Underdark beyond the village. Most of our deep gnome brothers dwell in the Grotto village below, and beyond it you will find yourself in the Underdark. The Earthkin Portal there will take you to it, as will the ferryman. You are in the lower reaches of Brogendenstein. The Great Grotto descends towards the border of the Underdark, and is home to many of our gnomish peoples. Be wary of the degenerate races of xvart and spriggan, for both dwell close by to the grotto.

The Lords of the Golden Hills are our gods, and there many of them. Though do not misunderstand our connection to them. Many of the other races too often define themselves by their faith, but we gnomes are far more secular.To us they are more akin to absent and valued friends than the overlords of our fate. If you wish to learn of them then search out the lore. Knowledge is always more satisfied when it is earned.

Countless centuries ago some gnomes followed their god, Callarduran down into the Underdark, to seek out the great beauty to be found there. It is they that we now call the Deep Gnomes, or svirfneblin. They are, perhaps, the most different of us. At least in personality... They are serious, direct. Joviality is not a quality common to them. They are also suspicious of most other races, save perhaps for the Shield Dwarves. There was a time, long ago, when the Underdark was not home to the evil races that now inhabit it, but as the Drow, Duergar, and Orogs were one by one banished there, so they threatened and in many cases destroyed the svirfneblin settlements. Much is also true for the dwarves. They have lost many of their ancient kingdoms, and in those that still remain the sight of svirfneblin can be commonplace.

The Rock Gnomes are the most common of the gnomish races, and when many hear the term gnome it is we they are thinking of. Outgoing, inventive and curious. We can be found throughout the world, sometimes in a grotto like this, but also among the other races. We prefer the shallow homes, for while we live below ground we also have a love to walk beneath the sky, sun and moon.

The Forest Gnomes are the most mysterious of our peoples, and the most secluded, more so even than the Deep Gnomes. Because most know so little about them. To many their very existence is questioned. They are strongly bound to nature, and also to the fey, for it is from Feywild that many come to this realm.The Feywild is a different plane, or rather a reflection of our own. If you wish to learn more of it I am not really the person to ask.

The Xvarts and the Spriggans were both once gnomes, but are now creatures of insanity and evil. Of the two it is the Spriggans you should fear most. Devotees of Urdlen, the Crawler Below, the eternal enemy of the Lords of the Golden Hills.

I do my best to manage the grotto, and greet visitors, but are true leaders are found above in the Golden Halls. We are part of the Earthkin Alliance and under its protection. If you wish to become a citizen, or contribute to our resources then it is to there you must travel.

----

On Arelith, svirfneblin had a rather atypical story. Ancient times, they would start out in Grond, which pointed to them being evil, which many of them actually were. Blingstonhold was a NPC-area, attacking everybody. The devs and players were aware of this, and slowly changed the setting against what it is today: Blingstonhold NPCs at some point stopped attacking deep gnome chars. In the times of Pit Town, Blingstonhold was a settlement. But everybody realized that it still was rather impossible to play good/neutral aligned svirf because it was only a few maps from Udos and Pit Town, without no defense system. The hole to Brog was there, but anybody could use, not just svirfs.

Another thing was that at that time, svirf gave one of the (if not the) most powerful builds on the server. (This disappeared about 3 years back).

The present setting, with Blingstonhold separated from Andunor, for the first time in the servers history made it possible to have a secret svirf village, and tthe possibility of playing out more FL lore like svirfs..

But it was also somehow a result of the devs realizing that playing svirf would be very isolated, and lonely. So they opened up to Brogendenstein, to open up the roleplay a bit. I think that the present setting very much makes it possible to play a svirf according to race, and at the same time "soften up" the roleplay a bit towards the Shield Dwarfs.

It was also a very dramatic break with ancient time svirfneblin settings. And it's good to see that new chars are trying to act in the new setting.