Darkfire / Flame Weapon

[Elena]

Hey everyone!
As it is now, these spells seem to have like no use. At all. It doesn't work on an enchanted weapon, which leaves Bronze as the only choice. However, since one gets only access at level 5, you can already use a bronze weapon with an 1d6 essence (which is permanent) and makes the use of either of these spells void. (The same goes for the 1d4 flame weapon which can be replaced with an 1d4 essence at level 3).

I would like to suggest that these spells come to some use, somehow, because in 3 years of Arelith, I haven't seen anyone using them.

How about this spell enchants any weapon with a minimum of 1 and maximum of [character level]/10 fire damage

This would give a pure caster (30 levels in his/her class) the possibility to add 3 fire damage to an existing weapon.


As for those who were concerned in PvP, the essence that grants 5/- fire resistance would resist most of its damage done by anyone, as you rarely go melee with a pure caster and anyone else would only have 1 or 2 fire damage he could add to the current weapon. That would need at least a 3x or 4x multiplier to kick in, which would result in 1-3 additional fire damage. (compared to the physical and other damage, pretty much nothing).

But it would make make the spell viable enough for the sake of adventuring (against trolls, etc.)

What do you think?

[Nathan Brack]

It's a niche spell, but I've seen it used. Dark fire is very good for the cleric/monk 10 attacks/round build, for example. It's not always the best choice for a str character.

A better question is how your level five character can afford to put a d6 essence on a bronze weapon... That's a hell of an investment.

[Lorkas]

Note: flame weapon and darkfire damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.

[Red Sunset]

Note: flame weapon and darkfire damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.

I assumed Elena was suggesting it function like a temporary essence just of a weaker variety.

Can someone confirm though? Does flame weapon on a bronze weapon then stack with the semi new fighters boon, leaving one possibly with a +1-+6 weapon with flame weapon on it? Not that most just wont have it enchanted with a couple 1d4 elements anyway that end up multiplying on a critical.

[yellowcateyes]

I don't see much wrong with giving spells like Flame Weapon or Darkfire more utility. By and large, weapon-enhancing spells were abandoned after the 'Bronze Only' nerf that targeted battleclerics. That old change, from before Fighters and Barbarians were made viable in their own right, seems a little dated. Small changes like these might restore some forgotten and underutilized buffs to the spellbook.

[Durvayas]

As someone with a fighter character, I don't think it matters what the fighter buff does to the weapon, because I simply enchant my weapons with keen and slap a high essence on them for better effect.

The spell is utterly useless if you aren't running a cleric. The only time it is good is with a bronze weapon where the cleric casts GMW on it and then darkfire, leaving you with a +5 darkfire weapon. Good... if you have constant access to said enchantments(IE: works for clerics that only use bronze, but nobody else.)

[Elena]

Note: flame weapon and darkfire damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.

I assumed Elena was suggesting it function like a temporary essence just of a weaker variety.

I.. ahem.. yes, I totally suggested this function! Of course it's not multiplied! Any child can tell you that! *cough cough*


On another note:

The only time it is good is with a bronze weapon where the cleric casts GMW on it and then darkfire, leaving you with a +5 darkfire weapon.

The latter erases the former. You can either have your weapons enchanted with +5 OR with darkfire/flame weapon. As soon as you cast another weapon buff on them, it deletes any other enchantment. So you effectively can have +5 weapons, or the darkfire/flame weapon

[Flameborn]

This spell is much, much stronger then any essence. Its adding +10 fire damage +1d4 fire damage.

So its pretty much a triple strength +4 essence.

It certainly has its uses, especially in certain area's of the module. (Cold places) where enemies take extra fire damage. I'll take +20 fire damage over a few AB.

[imgoinginane83]

My cleric constantly uses darkfire. More damage output than gmw. Plus he has no problem hitting anything in the respective hunting areas i take him to. I think it works just fine as is.

[Flameborn]

Flameweapon and darkfire are amazing until epic levels, but then everyone has master demask with +4's on it, and the damage is no longer worth it.

But pre-epic, it can double, sometimes even triple a characters damage.

[DirtyDeity]

Flameweapon and darkfire are amazing until epic levels, but then everyone has master demask with +4's on it, and the damage is no longer worth it.

But pre-epic, it can double, sometimes even triple a characters damage.

If at level 9 you would rather have 9+1d4 fire damage that can't crit rather than +3 ab and keen, it's very likely you're looking at a slight damage deficit. And if at 16 you prefer 10+1d4 fire damage that can't crit rather than +3 ab keen and +4 essence, you're right out of there.

Darkfire and Flameweapon are NOT 'amazing'. They are useful, in extremely low levels. If a high level mage twinks your level 3 bronze sword with high fire damage, sure, that's cool. If you use it against fire-weak mobs, alright. It has it's uses.

But if your level 3 buddy grants you 1d4+3 fire damage that lasts 3 minutes? Well, that's not going to be useful for long.

That said, I hardly think the spell needs to be made useful. Damage is very hard to come across on Arelith. most characters are only allowed a measly +4 on their weapons, and a temporary +1d6. It would be very hard to balance between 'mandatory' and 'useless', as a spell, if we try.

[Nathan Brack]

DD, i think you're vastly overestimating most character's crit hit chance and damage at level 9, and underestimating what 10-13 damage for every hit means. for most, it means every hit is basically a critical hit. and critical hits are like 3 hits at once!

for literally any melee combatant except a str based wm, this is a good choice. heck, at level 9, even the wm would do pretty well with flame weapon. sure, the extra damage doesn't get multiplied in, but for some reason people treat it like that means they can't get critical hits anyways (every other bit of damage is multiplied).

maybe you have a keen weapon at level 9, maybe you're using steel weapons and a +2 essence, but flame weapon will outperform in damage. especially with the fighter update which means you'll still have an enhancement bonus on the weapon.

[Flameborn]

As well, you are overlooking how many enemies at low levels are totally immune to crits, and greatly resistant to weapon damage. (Every slime in the UD, which are about a dozen, from sewers to slime temple.) As well as low level undead on the surface and there.

When you go from spending 20 rounds trying to kill a mini black pudding at 2 damage a hit, to doing it in 2 rounds with 20 damage a hit, your tune suddenly changes.

[DestroyerOTN]

As well, you are overlooking how many enemies at low levels are totally immune to crits, and greatly resistant to weapon damage. (Every slime in the UD, which are about a dozen, from sewers to slime temple.) As well as low level undead on the surface and there.

When you go from spending 20 rounds trying to kill a mini black pudding at 2 damage a hit, to doing it in 2 rounds with 20 damage a hit, your tune suddenly changes.

LaughingHammerWeaponmasters.jpg

i think you're vastly overestimating most character's crit hit chance and damage at level 9

Non-Weaponmaster characters with a Scimitar, Keen, and Improved Critical (which can be attained by level 9 for even 3/4 BAB classes if you mix them with full AB class levels) should be capable of achieving a 12-20 easily.

As for the rest of your post,

1. the only way that 10-13 damage is the equivalent of an entire critical hit is if you're running a Dex based character; in which case sneaks are probably your source of damage anyway - and it's also literally never gonna be 3x the damage. Keep in mind that balancing should never be made around the lower end of the power-curve; or else we'll end up with grossly underpowered/overpowered changes like the summon ones.

2. As far as Weaponmasters, I'm not soon trading my 80 damage level 9 crits' critrange for a few non multiplied damage. It's the difference between a 1/4th chance of a crit, and 1/2.

3.

maybe you have a keen weapon at level 9, maybe you're using steel weapons and a +2 essence, but flame weapon will outperform in damage. especially with the fighter update which means you'll still have an enhancement bonus on the weapon.

Math time.

Assume Keen and a 1d6 Temp Essence on the first weapon, and nothing but Flame Weapon; on the average 3 attack flurry of a low end Weaponmaster.

Yes, three. We're dual wielding now. For Science.

Your WM is going to be level spread Fighter 6/WM 3 by now unless it's a bad build. If it is, defer to the prior point on not balancing by the low end of the curve. Regardless; as such, you're only getting +1 from the bonus, and you've not yet hit the Critical Threatrange increase.

Your crit range, therefore, is a difference of 12-20 and 15-20.

Going off this, let's work your average to get 'approximately' 20 attacks (so, across 6 2/3 rounds); which you will probably never have happen outside of a boss, but is much cleaner for averaging this.

Since we're dual wielding, but not bad at this game; we'll go with Dual Kukris - giving us a base damage roll of 1d4.

Keen/Essence: [1d4 (average 2)+STRmodifier (no more than 12 yet)+1d6 (average 3)+1]*total attack equivalent (acquired by multiplying all outstanding attacks by the critical multiplier of x2 (giving us about 28)) = 504
Flame Weapon: ([1d4 (average 2)+STRmodifier (no more than 12)+1]*total attack equivalent (same method of getting, ends at 25))+(1d4+3 (low level cast. Average 5)*20) = 475

The curve deviates (theoretically) further in the former's favor over time, too - especially with those crits coming way more often than they should statistically; meanwhile the difference against non critted enemies is a negligible average of 2 per hit, totaling a whopping '40' to likely 'multiple' crit immune enemies across various rounds.

Now, sure, you can be technical and say "But I have a mage buddy that can buff me with the 1d4+10 variant!" - and you'd be right. For a much longer time, you'd enjoy a more significant damage output; even if we project it across 100 attacks instead.

Keen/Essence: [1d4 (average 2)+STRmodifier (no more than 12 yet)+1d6 (average 3)+1]*total attack equivalent (140)) = 2520
Flame Weapon: ([1d4 (average 2)+STRmodifier (no more than 12)+1]*total attack equivalent (same method of getting, ends at 125))+(1d4+10 (Average 12)*100) = 3075

-but take a moment and consider that you're giving up a significant amount of weapon versatility for about 5 more damage per hit on average; which is only even true assuming you don't get the Weaponmaster feats (and you do). Next, realize how situational it is that your weapon master's even familiar with any mages that bother with the spell. Let's not forget that the Keen/Essence one can also afford a temporary essence, where the latter one won't stack.

There's also the fact that it's only fire damage; and so a lot of the higher end creatures actually resist most - or all - of it.

I would -never- trade Keen for Flame Weapon - even if statistics say it's 'better', there's only one class it's 'better' for; and that class would be far sooner suited enjoying versatility, and weapons that'll be useful into later levels, against prepared foes.

[DirtyDeity]

Code: Select all

And you're underestimating how much the +3 AB from Greensteel is going to help your hit-rate. Assuming you're fighting monster ACTUALLY your level, and not hitting Wharftown Boys at level 10, the amount of extra HITS you'll get from -15%- more chance to hit, alongside with Keen, will increase your damage likely more than Flame Weapon.

It has it's uses. But I've never said 'Damn, I wish I had someone to cast Flame Weapon on me now...'

It's not a game-changer. It's an acceptable alternative.

P.S.
DOTN, stop with the math please, I don't think anyone's even reading it. It hurts my eyes.

Let's stop derailing:
We are wasting breath. I think that this spell has it's uses in lower levels, and shouldn't be buffed because, as I've said before, balancing it between 'mandatory' and 'useless' will be incredibly difficult. That is my input. Move on.

[DestroyerOTN]

Agreed.

Sadly, Flame Weapon and Keen are probably both 'that kind of spell' that's simply doomed to be wispy and useless at higher tiers.

Them, and ones like Web, Gust of Wind, and the normal Magic Weapon spell altogether.

[Lorkas]

I noticed some problems in the math (for example, the average of a 1d4 is not 2, it's 2.5) and redid it, but as people have asked for no more math posted here I will just post the conclusion:

If the caster of flame weapon is lower than level 5, then keen with 1d6 essence deals more damage per round.
If the caster of flame weapon is level 5 or higher, then flame weapon deals more damage per round.

This still assumes that every critical hit confirms.

[DestroyerOTN]

I noticed some problems in the math (for example, the average of a 1d4 is not 2, it's 2.5) and redid it, but as people have asked for no more math posted here I will just post the conclusion:

If the caster of flame weapon is lower than level 5, then keen with 1d6 essence deals more damage per round.
If the caster of flame weapon is level 5 or higher, then flame weapon deals more damage per round.

This still assumes that every critical hit confirms.

Also still assuming the wielder is lower than eleventh level, correct?

Yes, I'm assuming it's a weapon master 100% of the time. It's not worth considering for any build that doesn't get fighter bonuses; as (-and I've said this before in other threads) DPS has a direct correlation with AB.

[Lorkas]

I used the same level 9 character you did.

I don't mean assuming it's a weapon master (there is no difference in the crits yet at weapon master anyway). What I meant was assuming that any roll within the critical threat range would be a critical hit. It's possible for the character you described with a 12-20 threat range to roll a 12 (for example) and it not even be a hit, much less a critical hit. I (and you) were just assuming for simplicity that all of those rolls are critical hits.

It's a common simplification since there's no way to account for it without knowing the AC of the target.