[Build Request] Bard Knight

[Mr_Rieper]

Hey guys, I've officially decided that I suck at building and I remake Rannos too much. So at the risk of revealing his entire build to the server and leaving nothing to the imagination, I've come to humbly beg for help. This is basically a thread to Pimp My Character. I don't want to remake him from scratch again and I don't mind using a more modest build (Being uber elite is not necessary for me), so I'd like to ask if the more experienced builders could take a look at his existing stats and make the best of them.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/414 ... annos.xlsx

There's the spreadsheet of his current build. The class combination is justified entirely by RP and is a bit inflexible, but I'm hoping we can make it work somehow. Rannos is first and foremost a bard. He's been taught to harness sorcerer powers but I don't believe it's a vital part of his build anymore. I'd like to focus more on his bard RP and I know that 16 levels of bard is ideal, so is bard/paladin viable with his current stats? I'd like him to be a support-y kind of character that accentuates the more common builds on the server. So a strong bardsong, good amount of Taunt, nice selection of spells etc would be good. Also, if possible, leaning more towards better effectiveness in PvP rather than PvE. I'd much rather get killed by a monster than consistently get stomped by other players in confrontations.

For those that don't want to read the spreadsheet, here are his minimum stats (I'm prepared to delevel back to these)

STR: 13
DEX: 8
CON: 15
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 18

Feats: Toughness

Now, should I stick with the plan to be a bard/sorc/paladin or can I go with a bard/paladin build with this?

TL:DR - Please help me make my RP build somewhat viable.

[Mulled]

With only bard for casting maximise needs to go. Is he sufficiently knightly that you want the full 14 paladin? Would 4 levels be enough? His Charisma won't be high enough for Great Smiting to be viable anyway. Would you consider dipping into some fighter? Or going Bard 20 for Lasting Inspiration? How set are you on having all those spell focuses? Does he favour a particular weapon?

I assume he wears greensteel with liberal applications of Cats Grace.

Bard 20/Paladin 4/Fighter 6 could work nicely.
Bard 16/Paladin 4/Fighter 10 for more of a melee focus.

Since you want him more in a support role you might consider:

Bard 20/Paladin 4/Sorcerer 6
Bard 16/Paladin 4/Sorcerer 10

Do you have a gear plan? Level up stat bonuses Str 13-14 and Con 15-16 are a little wasteful. Perhaps gear could compensate and one or two of those could be sunk into Cha for increased DCs/more castings? Though that entails severe de-leveling.

I can't actually see anything stopping him from believing (and saying) that his bardic casting is a manifestation of his sorcerous power.

Though I haven't the first clue about building for PVP.

[Mr_Rieper]

As far as I know, the only real requirement for PvP is dumping points into discipline. Though, I'm hoping somebody will correct me on that.

Essentially what I'm asking here is if a modest melee build is still viable with those stats or if I should just stick with the weird caster build. I would consider some fighter levels, yes. Bard 20 is something I'd also be keen on, I really love bard RP and just barding in general. As for whether he's sufficiently knightly, I'd say he relies more on cunning in most situations. The paladin levels are a reflection of his development. He has a firm morality, sense of justice and new-found respect for the law, but he's still a longshot off of your typical paladin. For that reason, 14 levels in paladin isn't required.

The spell focuses are also an RP choice as Rannos' personality fits more with Enchantment, as he relies heavily on talking his way out of fights and being a persuasive person. Also, being able to craft some really epic items to leave behind when I roll him would be amazing. The Abjuration is just to avoid getting ruined by IGMS spam, I didn't really think that one through much.

Favored weapon would probably be either a Morningstar or Spear, I'm not terribly fond of martial weapons as a player but if its recommended, then I'd say Rannos doesn't really have a firm preference. He'd use anything that is effective. And yes, the idea with the caster build was that he'd wear greensteel.

No gear plan yet. Are there any that would be recommended?

He's still a very low level at the moment, so I'm open to suggestions on what to do with him.

[Mulled]

Alright. I'll work up the B20/P4/F6 tonight if someone else hasn't jumped in with something better by then.

[Jack Oat]

Looking at it, you don't have the Strength to make this a viable melee build. Even if you dumped pure Strength, you'd end up with 18 CHA and 20 STR, with an odd CON, which is comparatively low when juxtaposed to most other melee Bard builds.

Your best bet would be to stick with the Sorcerer path and dump CHA instead of any STR or INT. 23 SORC with Abj. focus gives you rather decent dispelling capabilities, the Divine Shield/Tumble/EMA will grant you ridiculous AC, and finally the saves from CHA will put you above most other people in that regard, meaning a boon against other Mages.

It's been argued that a Sorc/Paladin/Bard build is the most powerful build in the game because of undispellable AC and high saves, alongside combative abilities. It isn't a "weird caster build" in the slightest.

[Realoms]

^ Sorc/monk/paladin thank you. But either way, it'd work- in which case you keep pumping up CHA, grab evocation or some offensive school + another. Maximise and either extend, silent or empower (longer buffs, more buffs/spells and immunity to silence or more offense and stronger buffs (for a few buffs). Take power attack and divine shield= AC boon for a burst of time.


Anyway, you can get away with such a low strength. But it won't be easy, typically you take 16 minimum in your main melee stat. You can get away with it, but you'll rely on buffs and won't be top tier build wise. But if that's not an issue and you'd prefer melee, I say go with it- just put everything in STR and make sure you get divine might and shield with paladin.
Then, Fighter will give you a bunch of extra feats. Take anything that ups your AB- epic prowess, epic weapon focus, great strength if you can (16/4/10 I think should be able to fit a great strength or two). Then go for improved expertise.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Nelehein started with 14 STR (and ended with 16). I do not think your stats are unsalvageable.

That said, you'd definitely want to take Fighter considering you've taken Toughness. Bardadins are super feat-starved.

But, if I had to redo Nelehein, I'd go 21 bard/5 fighter/4 paladin. That's a classic cookie-cutter bardfightdin. I really don't know what sorcerer gives you, that bard doesn't, unless you go back and become a WeaveMaster and that's where things could get interesting.

I'd go 21 bard/4 sorcerer/5 paladin, or something of that variation. Sorcerer for crafting opportunities, I guess? Bard and sorcerer really aren't that congruous.

[Realoms]

Bard in a sorcerer build gives you armour proficiency feats, discipline, UMD, tumble and listen.

And 21bard gives nothing or at least nothing overly useful compared to 20 bard, unless you really like the epic bard feat (but I stand by epic SD, cleric, monk and druid being the nicest epic feats...but none add anything beyond a feat with a description) . It'd be better to go 20bard/4paladin/6ftr because of the extra feat, and you can still get lasting inspiration which requires 20 bard (with 20th level taken at epic, on a level with a feat) not 21 bard (though Bane of Enemies does require 21ranger).

Edit: typos

[Anime Sword Fighter]

NOTE: THIS IS PROBABLY "BAD" BUILD ADVICE
Favoured Soul may be a thing you want to try out.
If you want to give up the bard song (but who says you can't sing and be a performer still?)
I'd probably do 20 favoured soul, 10 fighter.
I'm bad at building. I actually really hate building things. Good even numbers are my favorite thing.

Beginning abilities would be, at least with me:
If willing to take gifts-
14 Str > 16 Str
10 Dex
12 Con > 14 Con
10 Wis
16 Int
14 Charisma > 16 Charisma
Max Str. or Con. at levels. This gives you 2.5 ECL if you are ready to grind.

If you don't want to deal with ECL:
14 Str
10 Dex
12 Con
10 Wis
14 Int
16 Cha
Basically same thing, really. Unless you want to take more fighter or something than enough favoured soul to get all level six spells, then drop charisma down to 14 and pop those points into Con or Str.

If you want to keep your negatives in Wis and Dex for RP reasons:
Without ECL
15 Str
8 Dex
14 Con
8 Wis
14 Int
16 Charisma

With ECL
15 Str > 17
8 Dex
14 Con > 16
8 Wis
16 Int
14 Char > 16

[Mr_Rieper]

Thanks for all the suggestions, after I've recently remade Rannos for the 3rd time and he still seems pathetic, I'm glad there's some hope of salvaging his build without remaking him AGAIN.

The caster route is an absolute pain to level with, so I'm really liking the idea of a melee bardadin with Lasting Inspiration. Thanks for the Favored Soul suggestion, but I don't think Rannos is one of Lathander's favorites.

I'm hoping I got something right with the level of INT, at least. Will I have enough skillpoints to throw a few into Taunt? It's a really fun skill and suits Rannos' swashbuckl-ey nature (and voiceset).

[Mulled]

Yes, plenty.

Bard(20), Paladin(4), Fighter(6)
http://www.filedropper.com/rannos2

ABILITIES
Reallocate as you wish. After rounding off the Con I went pure Charisma for extra casts and better Divine Feats (that's 6 Mass Hastes/Day). Rannos' Bulls Strength, GMW+5, Bard Song, Curse Song and War Cry will pull up attack/damage. With the 30 Cha there's still room for 6 points of other stats on gear to bolster what you feel is lacking. My major concern is carrying capacity.

CLASSES
A headlong Bardic charge into all that song and spell goodness, followed by Paladin since I think of him as one. Paladin where it since since Song 11 is a big deal but it can slot in 10-12 or 16-18 if you think it more appropriate.

The first fighter levels are positioned to reap the most melee might in the shortest time. Finished off with Paladin since Divine Power wasn't in your build.

FEATS
I've kept in GSF Enchantment since you've said it suits him. However, if since Epic is unavailable you decide to swap those out, Craft Wand/Blind Fight/Expertise/Improved Expertise/Knockdown and Improved Knockdown could be considered. If you do that you may also wish to consider moving Weapon Focus up to level 3 or 6 and delaying the second of the new feats until 18.

Expertise would tempt me. 8 Dex with greensteel isn't ideal. I'm forever hearing people calling Blind Fight essential, yet I rarely come across concealed opponents so I assume they mean in relation to PVP so that might be the one you'd want.

I slotted in Morningstar over Spear because it's fun and rarely used. 1.69 much improved it.

SKILLS

Concentration
With Defensive Casting Mode on the quickbar there's never any reason for a Bard to have Concentration higher than 24. Hence 21 ranks, which you can reduce if you plan for Con gear.

Perform
25 Ranks required for Lasting Inspiration. +10 from Cha, +5 from Ruby Necklace =40 =level 18 Bard Song. If you want level 20 Song go for it. I just don't think that 4 temporary hit points and 2 temporary skill points are worth having to find an extra 10 Perform. Your milage may vary.

UMD
Your aim was 15? It seems a shame to waste skill points which won't be needed in later. I dropped two points from what you had since on the assumption that he already has Cha gear. You'll need to tweak ranks. Actually, since he will have a Divine casting class from 13, does he need any at all?

Taunt
You may like to continue to max ranks, and perhaps to have it on all Rannos' gear. I haven't had a high level with it so I don't know what to aim for.

Saved: 72 points to spendamong the others taken in your build

Heal - increased value since removal of +10 kits from stores.
Listen - if taking it I'd go max ranks and put it on gear. I'm not sure it's much use unless maxed.
Lore - with all that bardic Lore, it would take the Intelligent Rannos a mere 17 ranks to unfailingly understand languages spoken in his hearing (Is he a scholar?).
Spellcraft - I trained it, but with Paladin saves I'm not sure how much I'd invest in it beyond that.
Taunt

ARMOUR
The Fighter levels do at least negate movement speed penalty for Medium or reduce it to 10% for Heavy, though that does come late.

GEAR
These take an Epic Enchanter. Remove one +2 and they're mostly possible for someone with only the skill basic focus, though rings and boots would still require Greater.

Skill Selection: Discipline/Heal/Taunt/Listen/Spellcraft (/Perform?)

Neck
Ruby Amulet

Rings *2
+2 Skill *3
+1 Charisma
+1 Stat

Boots
+2 Skill *1
1 AC
+1 Cha
+1 Stat

Cloak, Belt, Gloves.
+2 Skill *4
+1 Charisma
+1 Stat

Edit: I added up wrong. This set takes Cha to 32. I think 30 is fine. A bard won't need the bonus level 7 which comes with 32... though you may still want it for the level 3 slot that comes with it and I'm sure the extra Turn Undead attempt will come in useful. Alternatively flip the cloak and another item to stat/stat without either being Charisma.

[Mr_Rieper]

Thanks a ton for the help Mulled, I'll be referring to the updated spreadsheet often.

To everyone else, thank you as well. I don't really have a good insight into building properly, but this thread has been really helpful in understanding the critical points of a build better.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

http://nwnecbguild.forumer.com/topic/51 ... BDA6md0yJA

This is a pretty decent guide that will explain some of the basics of building.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

It's been argued that a Sorc/Paladin/Bard build is the most powerful build in the game because of undispellable AC and high saves, alongside combative abilities. It isn't a "weird caster build" in the slightest.

It's one of the stronger ones for sure. I would not say strongest but its up there.