What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

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What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:45 pm

Not mechanically, but conceptually.

What personality traits are common among rogues, and what inclinations generally come from them?
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Wordless Truth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:18 pm

IMO rogue is (conceptually) the most versatile class there is, even before fighter, because fighter implies a martial inclination.

I think what rogues have in common is a certain moral flexibility, i.e. opportunism.

Background-wise, that can really mean anything.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Iceborn » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:45 pm

A rogue, to my eyes, is the skilled brigand. The sly and charming smooth-talker that knows just a little bit of everything. It's the darker, non-magic side of the bard. A rogue is an individual with his own moral compass, that usually points to himself first and foremost. A rogue is an opportunist, one that knows a chance when he sees it, and is not shy to take it, whatever it could imply.

That, to my eyes, is the archetype of the rogue.
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:10 pm

Rogue is a guy who dies to implosion.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:13 pm

Rogues can't be defined by their morals because there's rogues of any alignment. While not common, you can have a LG Rogue and he's still a rogue (the worker of a locksmith company for instance).

Personally, I view rogues as people who 'know how stuff works'. They can talk their way into and out of situations, they know the ins and outs of city works, who to talk to for what, 'know how'.

A rogue can do anything, and if they can't, they know someone who can, or they can talk someone into it, or they're very good at pretending they can do it.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:19 pm

Rogues can be thieves, brigands, even bandits and assassins. They are almost always dwelling in the shadows, preferring to strike from the unseen - or even to not strike at all and instead sweet-talk their way through trouble.

The loyalty of a rogue varies from rogue to rogue. Some might be serving kings and queens faithfully, while others are stealing from the temple coffers on a daily basis.

I think, no matter what type of rogue you are, there's one trait that all rogues share, whether for good or for evil, and that is cunning.


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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Wordless Truth » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:39 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
I think, no matter what type of rogue you are, there's one trait that all rogues share, whether for good or for evil, and that is cunning.
Iceborn wrote:A rogue, to my eyes, is the skilled brigand. The sly and charming smooth-talker that knows just a little bit of everything. It's the darker, non-magic side of the bard. A rogue is an individual with his own moral compass, that usually points to himself first and foremost. A rogue is an opportunist, one that knows a chance when he sees it, and is not shy to take it, whatever it could imply.
IMO the brawny, shady city brute that won't do anything but beat you up for your milk money is a rogue too. Or a simple thief. At least in my book, rogues don't have to be cunning.
Shadowy Reality wrote:Rogues can't be defined by their morals because there's rogues of any alignment. While not common, you can have a LG Rogue and he's still a rogue (the worker of a locksmith company for instance).
A worker of a locksmith company is something, but not a rogue imo. I don't think one skill stands for an entire class. Yes, in NWN it's most likely portrayed through rogue, in lack of alternatives.

Even if you overlook the sheer amount of feats and skills that are of an opportunistic nature because you don't have to take them, I'll just say sneak attack. There's nothing evil or good about it. In a certain sense you could argue it's not lawful, but imo it can be even that (not going to delve into alignment debates). Even spying isn't 'outright'.

Opportunism isn't on the lawful-chaotic and good-evil axis, it's just a personality trait.
Tarkus the dog wrote:Rogue is a guy who dies to implosion.
Thread over?

I really think it's in the name. Being a rogue means being morally flexible. It doesn't have to be evil, or chaotic, or anything, and the degree and extent of your moral flexibility may vary, but you're still a rogue, and not a technician.


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Last edited by Wordless Truth on Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Maladus » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:43 pm

Wordless Truth wrote:IMO rogue is (conceptually) the most versatile class there is, even before fighter, because fighter implies a martial inclination.
I would agree with this because as has already been stated rogues fall into a number of different categories some of which haven't already been stated. I think it largely depends on the type of character you are making. Is your rogue a thief? Then he would have certain certain traits and concepts that support that. Is your rogue a swashbuckling pirate? He would have certain traits and concepts that support that.

This is reflected by the sheer amount of skill points and available skills that the rogue has mechanically. They can be a jack of all trades, or they can focus in one or two areas and be really proficient in those areas.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:17 am

I think more broadly along the lines of "skilled." From a PnP perspective, rogues often had access to almost all the skills. They could be athletes, horsemasters, bookworms, pickpockets, smooth-talkers, acrobats, escape artists, etc. etc.

No one else really could (except maybe bards). A Fighter would have 6 skills checked off in their little boxes, and rogues would only have 6 skills unchecked.

Rogues are the essence of skill. It's really hard to translate that mechanically (or even conceptually) in Arelith where space is two dimensional, and mechanics are limited, but it'd be neat to see it pulled off.
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:41 am

A rogue to me was/is a character that relies on tools, cunning, and good old fashion skill to get the job done. Traps, magical tools, lockpicks etc.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by AnselHoenheim » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:32 am

Actually, as an example, I am playing a merchant with rogue skills, as it is known in Amn that there are merchant, priests, or guards that learn rogue skills to stop thieveries, so in other words a rogue can became a rogue to be an anti-rogue, which gives an interesting background for the class, along with the classic rogues that are usually thugs, thieves, pick-pocketers, assaulters, spies, acrobats, gypsies, even riders, messengers, or simple commoners with a couple of needles that suddenly one day, learns to use it for open doors, that's the best part of this class, the variety.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by High Primate » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:56 pm

(Edited from something longer into something more succinct)

I'm inclined to just say that there are different senses of the term "rogue" with different definitions.

It could be a mechanical notion, having to do with the skills and abilities available to a person, not her character or morals.

It could also mean a certain type of person (in its original sense, it meant a villain or outlaw). Playing a roguish character, on that sense of the term, does not entail taking the rogue class, nor does taking the class entail playing that type of character.
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:38 pm

I think most, if not all, of the concepts people have here could be chalked up to a single word which, in my mind, describes Rogues: unconventional. A Fighter would take to combat by lining up and charging more often than not. A Rogue would prefer to slip across the river in the middle of the Christmas Eve to kill you in your sleep, or at least to get the drop on you.

As brutes, Rogues are great "below-the-belt" enforcers who are just as likely to try to intimidate you as just simply club you over the head and drag you away.

Guards learn Rogue skills as an unconventional way to counter thieves, who take Rogue for unconventional ways to pilfer merchants, who take Rogue for unconventional ways to Indiana Jones their goods from bad-guy Monks, who take Rogue to better strike out in unconventional ways as assassins against politicians, who take Rogue for diplomatic versatility and unconventional cunning to persuade local Guards to crack sown on thievery.

It's a versatile class that can benefit both combat and diplomacy in brutish or cunning ways.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Montaugh » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:45 pm

I think that the rogue at their heart is THE adventurer.. more so than any other class. They are the class that the rest of the party ends up being based around.

To have an actual adventure you have to have a rogue around to get you beyond the traps and into the chests and through a dungeon.

The martial class you have, the divine class you have, the magical class you have.. none of that matters. What matters is having that core adventurer class the rogue that brings the rest of the classes together.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by kittenblackfriends » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:49 pm

Except rogue can often be replaced by bard or ranger.

To me, rogue is the true DPS class. That SA damage is absurd, but you do need a frontliner to be dishing it out. They're glass cannons. Outside of combat, they serve as scouts and engineers, but a mage can fill either of those roles. Mage can fill burst DPS, but not consistent, single-target DPS.

The only issue is the whole construct-elemental-undead immunity thing.
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Shadofury » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:48 am

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Silent Handshake » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:33 am

A rogue is a vagrant person who wanders from place to place. Like a drifter, a rogue is an independent person who rejects conventional rules of society in favor of following their own personal goals and values.

In modern English language, the term rogue is used pejoratively to describe a dishonest or unprincipled person whose behavior one disapproves of, but who is nonetheless likeable and/or attractive.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by kittenblackfriends » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:48 am

Silent Handshake wrote:A rogue is a vagrant person who wanders from place to place. Like a drifter, a rogue is an independent person who rejects conventional rules of society in favor of following their own personal goals and values.

In modern English language, the term rogue is used pejoratively to describe a dishonest or unprincipled person whose behavior one disapproves of, but who is nonetheless likeable and/or attractive.
By your definition, that would make rogues chaotic-only, or else non-lawful. (Which would be interesting, since it'd mean paladins and monks wouldn't be able to multiclass into rogue.)
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Silent Handshake » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:53 pm

there are various degrees of this, while what i posted above is standard for what the word itself means, its a matter of finding your own way into it. I agree i should have tagged it as modern believes of the word. So with that I did something else-

when you make a new character and go to take rogue this is what it say: Rogues have little in common with each other, while some - maybe even the majority - are stealthy thieves, many serve as scouts, spies, investigators, diplomats and simple thugs. Rogues are versatile, adaptable and skilled at getting what other dont want them to get. (the rest is just what a rogue mechanicly can)

when looking at alignments (only looked at LN and CN) :
A chaotic neutral character is an individualist, resents restrictions and challenges traditions. He does not intentionally promote anarchy, however, as that would require he be motivated either by good (and desire to liberate others) or evil (a desire to make others suffer). a bard who wanders the land living by his wits is Chaotic Neutral. chaotic neutral represents freedom both from society's restrictions and do-gooder's zeal.

A Lawful Neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code direct her. she may believe inpersonal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government, a monk who follows her discipline without being swayed by the demands of those in need nor by the temptations of evil is lawful neutral, lawful neutral means that you are reliable and honerable with being a zealot.

IMO. i dont see why you have to be chaotic there are many ways you could avoid that by being something else than a thieving butthole.
i hope that did more help.

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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:55 pm

Fun fact, in 2nd Edition, Rogues could not have the Lawful Good alignment.

But then, in 2nd Edition, the class was called Thief


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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:43 pm

Montaugh wrote:I think that the rogue at their heart is THE adventurer.. more so than any other class. They are the class that the rest of the party ends up being based around.

To have an actual adventure you have to have a rogue around to get you beyond the traps and into the chests and through a dungeon.

The martial class you have, the divine class you have, the magical class you have.. none of that matters. What matters is having that core adventurer class the rogue that brings the rest of the classes together.
I echo the sentiment, although in my own words... the rogue is that person. The one that practices things like sneaking around, jiggling the locks open, setting up/disarming tripwires and pressure plates, poking people with pointy things in places it really hurts, forgery, and a whole plethora of other things. What hand gestures to use to get down an alley without getting a shiv stuck in your throat - which the guards behind you may not benefit from!

All things that are useful in getting into and out of dangerous places. And to that same end, many learn bits and pieces about magic, to survive all the magical hazards and traps they might come across.

Whether they are dangerous because you aren't supposed to be there (burglars/thieves/spies) or they are dangerous by their nature because you're on some quest for love/treasure/fame (bounty hunters/adventurers/guards). A rogue spends their life training for these awful/adventurous situations to arise, and sometimes praying the whole while that they never do.

But it's better to be sure you can handle it, than sorry.

For better or for worse, and both exist, this is what I think makes a rogue a rogue.
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Re: What makes a Rogue a Rogue?

Post by Bashagain » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:32 pm

The Internet search yields that the word "rogue" is derived from the Latin word, "rogare," which means, "to beg." So I suppose begging would make your rogue a true rogue. ;)

I think a good archetype for rogues are as follows:

Disney's Aladin - Chaotic good - resourceful
MacGuyver - Lawful good - resourceful
James Bond - Neutral good - resourceful
Robin Hood - Chaotic good - resourceful
Generic Ninjas - any alignment - resourceful
Pirates of Carribbean - ugh I give up - resourceful

After that short list, I think being resourceful is what makes a rogue.
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