Why Accept Evil Faiths?

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:38 pm

Its a very interesting debate.

Acting based on recent reputation of that faith or allowing this new character some breathing space for the sake of the story. Its a thin line. The answer I think is always within the realm of trying to listen to the other character and understand what it is they are looking for? To assert dominance? to blend in? to outright murder everyone?

Its not always easy to 'flex' when you feel like resenting the evil faithful is what your character SHOULD do in that situation, based on the war you had with the church of bane not two weeks ago or whatever, but I think it's always the right thing to do when you meet a new character because a scene between an evil and a goody can take SO many different forms that may surprise you in a good way. That's my biggest take from my time as playing a Paladin on this server.
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Royal Blood » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:05 pm

I think the acceptance of evil faiths on the surface is made doubly difficult because in my experience it follows blatant and abundant violence. it cannot be ignored and directly challenges the faiths or dogmas of others forcing the characters to react. I think this is made even more difficult by the easily obtained 'evil' magics.

Like how can you justify as a good aligned person knowing Frank summons Balors or Joe likes to raise undead and kill people with them? I think it is hard to have a pragmatic view when face to face with undead/demons/devils and justify in anyway working with that. ESPECIALLY if your character is deeply religious.

I think the surface would have an easier time adopting evil deities if it was not so obvious and in your face evil. I think it draws things to ultimatums quickly. I mean if you choose to murder a city official that has consequences! I've just seen so much blatant killing and destruction it's like how can the character have anything BUT a hostile response to that faith and its associates.

Ultimately though,

I think from both a good and evil perspective finding creative ways to display your faith and follow your characters ideologies is super important. There are many more options than just slaying your opponent etc! There are political options too! Ways to display faith without setting the opposition into a fight or die mentality and stuff. That's why I like the OP. It gives sort of a sensible view point in how to handle religions that may have contrary values to your own and a more... Even-handed appraisal of like faiths in general and how they'd operate in the context of Arelith's lore.

I appreciate the 'intellectual' following of faith. I think both good and evil people need to recognize that you can't always come out guns blazing like 100% on fire every time. You're going to quickly limit your ability to maneuver beyond persistent PVPing and that story is quickly going to become bland or deadlocked.

So like it's super tricky... There are so many elements to making it work here on Arelith. But I think the -best- way is just to be creative in how your faith based character presents themselves and their deity especially if it's an evil one.
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Irongron » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:50 pm

I should likely have made this thread a sticky, as from the original post onwards it is a great read, especially for those wishing to navigate this issue in-game, or more specifically - how to react to visible 'evil'

There isn't much more I can add, other than perhaps to say 'evil' is...everywhere.

Temples to dark gods, wizards summoning undead, monsters lurking around every corner. Evil isn't uncommon, it's not even usual. How people react to it is therefore going to be shaped by its ubiquity. A vegetarian opposses the farming and eating of meat, but they don't seek to burn down every farm they see, or round up butchers and put them to the sword.

Of course there is evil that is very much also the enemy - goblin hordes, drow etc, but that is as much due to a state of absolute hostility (out to destroy one-another) as the good/evil divide.

Take the example of a wizard known to practice necromancy among his other magics. He lives in a tower at the edge of the village, and while most villagers are afraid, or avoid him, he has a lot of gold, and few turn away his business, especially as from time to time he receives important visitors - other scholars, nobles, adventurers.

One day some militant Kelemvorites show up, and put him to the inquisition. They interview locals for testimonies of his being seen to raise the dead, petition their high temple to name him a known necromancer. The wizard is arrested and his tower searched. There are whisperings of discontent among the villagers and local nobility, but none dares challenge the power of the Kelemvorite church, lest they share a similar fate.

A trial before their priests in the village square, and the wizard is burnt alive. The contents of his tower shipped away, and the villagers admonished for harbouring a necromancer...

But what happens in the country is hardly the case in the cities, the wizards are too well connected, and even the church of Kelemvor has limited sway among so many other faiths. Everyone knows Lord Carstairs had his wizard provide two dancing skeletons as entertainment at his last midnight ball, the local peasants grumbled and offered prayers to the god o of death, while the great and good just clapped along and ignored it as but a minor moral misdemeanor.

It's really not hard to see the Forgotten Realms as such a place.

Why is it so different on Arelith's surface? A few reasons I think. Poor world design has failed to reflect the above, players are inclined to bring real world values to their gameplay, and perhaps, most of all, there has always been quite a lot of social RP, whereby many players are inclined to play 'nice' characters.

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by CrowdStrike » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:22 pm

Something that I have typically found to be the case is how one dimensional a lot of things seem to be here. People pick a class or a singular stereotype then play on it hard. Or, they hear that you're something specific and therefore imply you have to fit into a specific category and can only be a single thing played a certain way.

There is definitely a lack of nuance that exists here.

What I mean to say is - If you're playing a Paladin, there are ways to do it outside of a holy crusader to kill everything evil. Many people forget about compassion, or honor for example. A Paladin won't simply kill anything that happens to be evil or might be evil. For example, if said 'evil' is unarmed and poses no direct threat, a Paladin should actually probably fall if they take out their sword and attack them, because they've just attacked an unarmed person who wasn't fighting back. Being a Paladin is more than just holy swording people. It can be showing the better way, and being that example for others. Including and especially evil people.

Sure, a Demon or a Devil is totally unable to have their hearts or minds changed. But lending that hand to an evil person, trying to pull them out of it and show them that there is a path to change, a path to be a good person, is far more compelling to play than "LOL EVIL SMASH HUR HUR" or throwing up the inquisition any time you come across somebody who is morally ambiguous.

A neutral good cleric should actually be healing evil people if they are wounded and need help. It doesn't matter who that person is, even if they are your enemy, the fact that they need your help and are dying in most cases is probably enough of a justification to ease their pain or help them.

I think we use the fact that death has very little meaning or consequence to justify a lot of stupid things. I think most characters might be considered genocidal maniacs for the sheer willingness they have on both sides to just start killing everything that moves because of the very clear lack of respect for the concept of death itself. But I doubt ANY of these sides would be allowed into major cities because rulers see them as a liability for just how incredibly bloodthirsty they all are. I have unironically seen fewer threats of violence, murder, and overall brutality from my time in Andunor than I see from the surface groups

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:51 pm

"Why is it so different on Arelith's surface? A few reasons I think. Poor world design has failed to reflect the above, players are inclined to bring real world values to their gameplay, and perhaps, most of all, there has always been quite a lot of social RP, whereby many players are inclined to play 'nice' characters."

While I sympathize with this point I dont think it is entirely accurate.

The one thing I have consistently seen as a player of evil characters on the surface is that PCs are far too "Aware" of the alignment chart. As well they seem to believe that this chart means that they should be at war with whomever is the opposite of theirs.

Its a fallacy that usually drives people to do things in the name of self preservation, good alignments grouping to smash evil alignments forcing evil alignments to make deals with otber evil alignments thus confirming suspicions that evil is bad for everyone.

The simple truth is that the surface has only two places to go for evil, and they are both opposites in their own right.

To address this: the only people that should be aware of anothers align ment is a paladin. And even still they only can tell if someone is evil, usually variations of evil. Its been said that if a paladin finally accomplished their goal of cleansing the world of evil, everyone on the planet would be dead, then they would kill themselves.

This is why normal people would be distrustful of paladins. Yet because EVERYONE knows paladins are "good" that must mean that they are good for society.

Frankly they are not. Its the same for evil folk. They have their uses in society. Even Necromancers, back in 1st edition necromancers had a history as gravetenders and were a part of villages making sure the dead didnt rise.

The world we are inhabiting is not black and white. Alignement is the culmination of choices that a PC has made in their life, and thus can be fluid. Evem though it can be objectively measured in this world, it can change. Meaning a good guy can turn sour, even if its for the right reasons, and a bad guy can change their ways.

The big issue is taking alignmemt on its face value and forbidding another alignment from societal interaction. Some of my best interactions have been theological debates with neutrals and goods on the economic effects of free labor using dead bodies and constructs instead of slave laborers that cordor uses.

Bane, for instance has many evil properties. But societally is just as prayed to as talos is for sailors. Bane is a god of judgement and law. Those that break laws are harshly punished and thus those that follow bane are often very secure and peaceful societies.

On the island of Arelith they are treated like bandits and thugs. But often treated that way by characters who are brand new to the island. Whose general view on banites would be from faerun history, not from arelithian history.

The church itself has seen so many cycles of different leadership because it frankly becomes unfun to lead it due to the lack of ability to interact without PVP breaking out.

If you run the church to intersct socially and not attack people you are accused of subterfuge and annihiliated daily. If you try forcable takeover you are met with the entire surface regardless of hurt feelings or grudges between settlements. If you do nothing, as this most recent itoration of the church has done mostly nithing but socialize within the church itself, people scale the walls and murder you inside your own home, and its considered a "goodly" act.

The TLDR is its peoples awareness of the alignment chart that makes them act this way. In faerunian lore, the radiant heart is not at war with the church of bane, nor are the elves, or amn. Critically think, why would they be at war on arelith surface, realistically?

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Xerah » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:49 pm

Your post explains exactly what I've been trying to get at. LN is a perfectly reasonable Banite alignment (and I'm sure there have been a number of Cordor guards like that) but it's nearly impossible to last very long before the mob comes.
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm

I don't think the alignment chart has too much to do with it. I played a character with an evil faith and found immediate acceptance after some conversation. Characters are 100% open to working with those who are reasonable or atleast appear to be. I really think the break down happens when obviously evil magics are used that so greatly violate an even neutrally aligned player conscious that they can't condone it. That, and rampant violence.

People see it both ways. Either characters are too leniant or they are too harsh.

I think the key to being evil is not to murder everyone and resort so openly to violence. Even on my Drow I found surfacers atleast willing to negotiate. But Rav also wasn't making a point of butchering people and was exploiting common interests.

I don't think the state of it all is in as dire a situation as eluded to but I think it could better! But that requires some changes on both sides of the good and evil fence

I think there are a lot of pragmatic characters. The funny thing is people get angry about both!
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:48 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm
I
People see it both ways. Either characters are too leniant or they are too harsh.

I think the key to being evil is not to murder everyone and resort so openly to violence. Even on my Drow I found surfacers atleast willing to negotiate. But Rav also wasn't making a point of butchering people and was exploiting common interests.

I don't think the state of it all is in as dire a situation as eluded to but I think it could better! But that requires some changes on both sides of the good and evil fence
Its a pretty funny point to make "not to murder everyone and resort to open violence"

The current itoration of banites have actively tried diplomacy and are consistently murdered in their church, in the streets of cities etc..

While there are plenty of people who are OK Rping with evil characters, and I applaude them for doing so. Some select few Pcs, who may, or may not yave grievences would rather killbash as many as possible for the crime of saying "praise Bane".

Cordor: immediate persona non grata, not allowed to conduct business or even walk into the city without being turned around regardless of whether or not a crime is committed

Myon: immediate death.

Brogdenstein: persona non grata

Bendir: imprisonment

Guldorand: to their credit they are only scowled at harshly.

None of these settlements will allow banites to have quarters and this has been tradition for.... Lets say atleast 30 to 40 IC years of history I know of.


Now, is this honor earned? Yes. But I think theres a bit of a misnomer that says that its deserved by every new itoration of the church. Many people may find that if the church wasnt treated worse than surface drow they may be less inclined to murder.


Banites are not Monsters, simply put. But they are treated as a surface group of kobolds would be.

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:18 pm

Honestly I had the exact opposite experience.

In Myon despite the banites murdering city councillors, brogendstein officials, and attacking Cordor and Bendir no one wanted to unite to fight them and the majority seemed willing to compitulate and did.

Diplomacy efforts were undone by do what we say or die and it went nowhere.

One issue specifically banites have is an IC history of violence and a fair few surface characters now are the same that were there before there even was a banite church. Also, the banites openly animate and use demons. That's hard to overlook.

In regards to Cordor during my last surface character Cordor was rather shady. There was regularly what I'd consider evil things going on and acceptance of evil Faith's for alternative agendas. So this time Cordor swung hard to LG it hasn't always been that way though but I think that swing is natural.

I think Bane suffers from a similar issue Lolth does in the UD. The most basic interpretation of the faith leads to rampant violence and submit or die style RP which isn't very fun for the people submitting and or dying.

But again I'd say the animation, demon summoning, and a long history of violence makes it -very- difficult for banites to break out of their box.
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Chosen Son » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:03 pm

Ideally the writ system could be modified to increase the presense of evil faiths in the setting to make them more nuanced.

Templars to a evil god have gone missing trying to rescue a child from a prominant local family of the faith. The temple is willing to pay you to fnish what they started and save the child, and recover the bodies of the temple militants.

Local farmers have pooled their coin together and are offering a large tithe to the local priests of the furies to provide them with food and other needed supplies come winter, because they live too far away for the Chaunteans or other priests to visit regularily. However the tithe was stolen, and you are to hunt down and find the thiefs and recover the lost offerings so the Malarites help the famrers come winter.

A planar tear has happened, and Banites acting alongside hired mercenaries move to contain the spread of chaotic outsiders from the planar tear.

A new plague has appeared, and the Ilmatari, and Talonites call a truce to deal with the threat. Tribute has been offered to Talona, and new worshipers turn to her faith, so she is inclined to show mercy, and has her faith doing what it can to help, even if it means working temporarily alongside Ilmatari. If anything it offers an opportunity to steal worshipers by showing that Talona, not Ilmatar is better at healing diseases and poisons then Ilmater is, and commoners and nobles alike should turn to her in the future. They need help gathering rare supplies, and adventurers are called on to clear out a grove of dangerous pixies, so the herbs can be recovered, and the sick healed.

A polytheist nobleman has been recieving tutalage from a travelling banite priest, and as a result is growing more and more assertive, and starts taking decicive action against criminals previously targetting his families merchant shipping. He hires adventurers to strike against pirates to prevent him having to fire commoners that he has hired and whose families depend on the noble houses employment to feed their families.

Adding nuanced protrayals of polytheism IG, will help players escape their black and white views of it. While gods like Bane, and Shar, and Talona are evil, they are deeply intertwined with the fabric of the FR, and if they are struck against by Paladins, Harpers, or other champions of light, innocent people depending on whatever those evil faiths offered will suffer. I

t could be the loss of the only healer that will treat commoners, not for coin but worship to Talona, and help cutting wood and gathering food as she is growing old. It could be sharran grave digger and grief councillor, who despite what he does outside of the eyes of the community, has helped the community deal with grief and loss, as well as is someone people have whispered many things to in states of despair. He has not said anything about them so far to anyone, but if threatened, should commoners start worrying that he will start talking if they dont help?

These are just some ideas I had on how to help this situation.
Last edited by Chosen Son on Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:46 pm

Chosen Son wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:03 pm
Ideally the writ system could be modified to increase the presense of evil faiths in the setting to make them more nuanced.

Templars to evil god have gone missing trying to rescue a child from a prominant local family of the faith. The temple is willing to pay you to fnish what they started and save the child, and recover the bodies of the temple militants.

Local farmers have pooled their coin together and are offering a large tithe to the local priests of the furies to provide them with food and other needed supplies come winter, because they live too far away for the Chaunteans or other priests to visit regularily. However the tithe was stolen, and you are to hunt down and find the thiefs and recover the lost offerings so the Malarites help the famrers come winter.

A planar tear has happened, and Banites acting alongside hired mercenaries move to contain the spread of chaotic outsiders from the planar tear.

A new plague has appeared, and the Ilmatari, and Talonites call a truce to deal with the threat. Tribute has been offered to Talona, and new worshipers turn to her faith, so she is inclined to show mercy, and has her faith doing what it can to help, even if it means working temporarily alongside Ilmatari. If anything it offers an opportunity to steal worshipers by showing that Talona, not Ilmatar is better at healing diseases and poisons then Ilmater is, and commoners and nobles alike should turn to her in the future. They need help gathering rare supplies, and adventurers are called on to clear out a grove of dangerous pixies, so the herbs can be recovered, and the sick healed.

A polytheist nobleman has been recieving tutalage from a travelling banite priest, and as a result is growing more and more assertive, and starts taking decicive action against criminals previously targetting his families merchant shipping. He hires adventurers to strike against pirates to prevent him having to fire commoners that he has hired and whose families depend on the noble houses employment to feed their families.

Adding nuanced protrayals of polytheism IG, will help players escape their black and white views of it. While gods like Bane, and Shar, and Talona are evil, they are deeply intertwined with the fabric of the FR, and if they are struck against by Paladins, Harpers, or other champions of light, innocent people depending on whatever those evil faiths offered will suffer. I

t could be the loss of the only healer that will treat commoners, not for coin but worship to Talona, and help cutting wood and gathering food as she is growing old. It could be sharran grave digger and grief councillor, who despite what he does outside of the eyes of the community, has helped the community deal with grief and loss, as well as is someone people have whispered many things to in states of despair. He has not said anything about them so far to anyone, but if threatened, should commoners start worrying that he will start talking if they dont help?

These are just some ideas I had on how to help this situation.
I love absolutely everything about this idea, and I think any organic change to the current perception of evil faiths with an established history on the server needs to start with something like this. It doesn't have to exactly be this, but the world has to impose a sense of acceptance and willingness to overlook generational history of malicious actions by evil faiths by giving them the opportunity to see something that looks positive about them, rather than only the decades of negative history.

This idea does so in a way that is beneficial to the character's growth, which should in theory give at least a subconscious reason to be at least a little more open to discussions of mutual interest.
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by The Kriv » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:25 am

Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:48 pm
Its a pretty funny point to make "not to murder everyone and resort to open violence"

The current itoration of banites have actively tried diplomacy and are consistently murdered in their church, in the streets of cities etc..

While there are plenty of people who are OK Rping with evil characters, and I applaude them for doing so. Some select few Pcs, who may, or may not yave grievences would rather killbash as many as possible for the crime of saying "praise Bane".

Cordor: immediate persona non grata, not allowed to conduct business or even walk into the city without being turned around regardless of whether or not a crime is committed

Myon: immediate death.

Brogdenstein: persona non grata

Bendir: imprisonment

Guldorand: to their credit they are only scowled at harshly.

None of these settlements will allow banites to have quarters and this has been tradition for.... Lets say atleast 30 to 40 IC years of history I know of.


Now, is this honor earned? Yes. But I think theres a bit of a misnomer that says that its deserved by every new itoration of the church. Many people may find that if the church wasnt treated worse than surface drow they may be less inclined to murder.


Banites are not Monsters, simply put. But they are treated as a surface group of kobolds would be.
*At risk of rules lawyering...

...I disagree. Banites ARE monsters.

as evidence, I put forth the Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons sourcebook:

p.15
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil. When news of Bane's destruction during the Time of Troubles made its way throughout Faerun, no fewer than twenty-seven nations declared festivals of celebration and thanksgiving. The commoner sees Bane's clerics as petty would-be dictators unafraid to us immoral tactics and unthinkable violence to spread their influence and agendar. The adventurer sees the clergy as constant interlopers and enemies, agents of a rigid, evil philosophy who side with monsters, devils and savage humanoids to further their wicked ends. Canny nobles glimpse the truest threat, that some of their peers pay homage to the Black Lord to gain through guile and subterfuge what soldiers cannot conquor by force.
So, when folk do homework to research how the server gameworld is supposed to work, the above is exactly the sort of info they have to work on. Not every player (and I'd beg to say the majority here) has read an Ed Greenwood book, or has researched his or any of the other FR authors' essays on the world they fleshed out in kabillion pages of fantasy literature.

Most folk reach for... A source book.

So, to say... this is not 30 or 40 years of history... this is a reputation that is the very fabric of the Banite faith, as per the source settings. Banites ARE monsters. And thus they are treated as such.

Now... as you wrote, the current incarnation of Banites have attempted diplomacy over kidnapping and murder... that makes me very happy to hear.

Personally, my characters (and my old characters, yes, I have one that has been around 90+ game years - sorry I didn't contribute to your other threat, GC...) ... have not been kidnapped, tortured, or extorted in some two game-decades is the kind of thing that opens doors to NOT being treated as monsters.

Changing a reputation of a religion takes time. And playing an evil faith (such as Bane) you need to temper your expectations a little if you are disappointed that a new itteration of the Church of Bane is treated in any other way than what is described above in the sourcebook.

If a Banite works with diplomacy instead of murder to achieve her goals, that is AMAZING! but... it is as uncharacteristic as the "good drow"

I say go for it. Changing people's perceptions and habbits is HARD! i mean... REALLY HARD.

If you are finding it difficult (talking to you diplomatic Banites) of COURSE it's difficult! You chose the MOST difficult path of a Banite worshiper! I applaud you for walking this avanue.

Personally... if my character were to hear that the Banites aren't really that bad? Even if I rolled up a brand new character.. My character wouldn't believe it. My character would have to see it. And not just once. She would have to see it over and over and over. -- don't expect me to read a post in Cordor and then set out a plate of cookies for the local Banite clerics. ;)
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Ork » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:57 am

Make sourcebooks a story-starter and not a crutch. Be willing to bend based 90% on in game events, not FR standards. It makes for better stories, because your character can fail, be seduced by a dark power, or have their trust betrayed. Be vulnerable, and stories will flow. If your character remembers the last iteration of the banites, and moves against the new banites- think about why. When some long lasting characters consistently prove roadblocks for new and fresh ideas, that's bad.

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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Drowboy » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:33 am

Hard agree with Ork, here. Sourcebook-based roleplay isn't just boring and derivative, it's obvious when you see it. Characters that randomly start talking like an FR wiki article is never as subtle as the players think it is, and it takes everyone out of the game for the sake of being 'right' about 'lore' that has less and less to do with the server itself as time moves on.
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by CNS » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:01 am

There is a board in Cordor that lists categories of people that are outright banned from Cordor. From various flavors of underdarkers to criminals, pirates and several faiths. I think its still there (to the left of the barracks entrance). Even if its not there currently it was there for at least a RL year so ten years in game.

An example from that board is Talonites. I do remember a fairly long time ago a Talonite PC or faction deploying a plot against Cordor so yeah I see why the PC government of Cordor wanted to ban them. However, that plot was a very long time ago most if not all PC's involved are now long gone. The sign remains however and so does the total and complete banning of Talona from Cordor.

Personally I think things like this are a little unhealthy, banning people is part of the political game with exiles and pariahs and so on. Coming down on particular sects is also part of this but banning whole churches for extended periods of time doesn't quite sit right. Just as we have to accept OOC as a condition of playing that in the end evil will never truly win on the surface and good never win in the underdark, and that PC's and NPC's will return from death, I think we should take a similar view to faiths.

Also, we could spend a little more time thinking about the consequences of our actions. Sure things like the above, and its just an example to prove a point I don't actually know all the circumstances around that plot and the outcomes beyond they happened and that sign is (or was) there for a very very long time - no comment on that plot or offense is intended. But its very PC focused. It reads like 'this PC/group of PC's did an evil plot we as the government PC's would naturally ban, legislate and remove them so they can't do it in future'. But we could think more about the 1000's of NPC's that live and should have power and influence in our cities.

If a port city banned Umberlee it would quickly be brought to its knees as very few ships would be willing to dock there for fear of what Umberlee might do to them if they did. Why is the same not true of Talona and those that work in agriculture? Would land owners go sell their grain elsewhere? Wouldn't the farmers (large body of people) and agricultural landowners (rich, noble and influential people) be in outrage at the government for inviting the ire of Talona on their livelihoods? Wouldn't every less than great harvest be a huge political controversy while something like this is in place? Wouldn't Talona and her agents actually take action even if no PC's were playing one?

Or with Bane, if I remember right the King is married to a Banite. Sure in the aftermath of some event maybe there's the political will and her and her supporters stay quiet but how long until she and her fellow upper class banites or even nobles that just want an in with her start to put pressure on the king and the government to drop such a restriction.

Again, not pointing any fingers here and totally fine with the full force of PC's in government and the guard or whatever being arrayed against evil plots that threaten their city. I just think for the good of the server we should have a 'short' memory and/or consider more how our actions might actually play out if the world consisted of more than just our PCs.

chris a gogo
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:56 am

To be fair I love this topic because it's how I view evil faiths.

This said Bane.
The sad truth.
Followers of Bane have a well deserve bad reputation on Arelith, The trouble is Bane is such a terrible deity it's just badly written.
The end result is all followers of Bane are cowardly bullies, it's written into the dogma and no one likes those guys, so your facing an uphill battle before you even meet your first victim to attempt to bully in the name of your god.
No one wants to play with those people, no one wants to be friends with them and the only reason to even speak to such people is because your afraid.

The result is everyone else gangs up on the bully and then the bully is beaten to a pulp until they go away forever...fin.

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Security_Blanket
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Security_Blanket » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:31 pm

The Kriv wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:25 am
If a Banite works with diplomacy instead of murder to achieve her goals, that is AMAZING! but... it is as uncharacteristic as the "good drow"
Image
"Faiths and Pantheons" Page 15

Being diplomatic is a very Banite thing to do actually. If we're talking about Bane, he's a perfect example of an evil god not done enough justice in the Arelith setting. In places like Arelith, where there is this history of violence amongst the Banites of the past. You have to use other tools in your repertoire, diplomacy/trickery. When your objective is world domination, you have to use whatever means you can to achieve that end, force alone isn't enough. Another thing to note is not every "Church of Bane" is the same. They come in many sects there are many followers, some churches interpret the "Word of Bane" differently. As you would come to expect of any religion with a lot of worshipers.
chris a gogo wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:56 am
Followers of Bane have a well deserve bad reputation on Arelith, The trouble is Bane is such a terrible deity it's just badly written.
The end result is all followers of Bane are cowardly bullies, it's written into the dogma and no one likes those guys, so your facing an uphill battle before you even meet your first victim to attempt to bully in the name of your god.
No one wants to play with those people, no one wants to be friends with them and the only reason to even speak to such people is because your afraid.
I don't think Bane is poorly written so much as poorly understood. He's not some punk lesser-deity or demigod with dreams of making it big. Bane is a greater-deity that inspires fear amongst some of his fellow gods. His story started with him being mortal, he fought his way to achieving god-hood, died, then he was resurrected stronger than ever. Bane is no joke, in Forgotten Realms, he has a HUGE following across the globe, even if he's not as influential as in places like the Moonsea.

People that don't understand Bane label him as a fear-mongering tyrant out for power, sure that is fair to say. It is also an extremely basic look at our favorite tyrant, however. His portfolios are Strife, Tyranny, Hatred, and Fear. Now let's examine those portfolios. Strife, so who in the world experiences strife? Bitter conflict, everyone does, everyone experiences the bitterness of conflict. If they didn't, then adventurers would be out of a job. Hate, again, everyone in the world experiences some form of hate. Even if you are a paladin you can hate a villain so deeply and inadvertently fuel the dark lord. Fear, now who is afraid? Again, this one takes the cake however as fear and tyranny go hand in hand. Everyone is afraid, I would argue that even a paladin would be afraid of losing a loved one. You can pray to Bane to ward off fear for instance, for the only true thing to fear is Bane. And of course Tyranny. Any tyrants in the world? I'm not just talking political tyrants either, you can be a humble businessman and a tyrant to your employees. You better believe it, there are tyrants everywhere from big to small, and a little lip service to Bane just might help you in your next business enterprise. There are many reasons to turn to Bane, like it or not, he's a part of you already.
Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."

Nymann
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Nymann » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:04 am

I have to agree with @security_Blanket here...

Throughout Arelith history, we´ve had a lot of Banites and mostly zhentarim players who kind of feel like they should be cyrists rather than banites, And I have only managed to seperate 5-7 among those of those I have met, who actually tried to inspire fear, rather than go PvP madness towards others.

I am not saying all evil players are playing PvP madness people, just look at Vance, Illphaeryl and countless others. But for some reason evil has also been shifted towards a simple excuse for PvP, while it may not look like such on Paper... But that is still how it is portrayed by a lot of people (both good and evil players)...

There was a saying once that 1 negative thing was more stuck in our mind than 10 positive, which really is showing here on Arelith. Is it wrong, through countless of wars and attempts at peace with our neighbours in Minmir, to just see bane as a vile and evil faith. We have always been let down and therefor decided to just put Banite as faith exiled from Halls.
Not during one moment at my time on Arelith and playing with Brog, we had a moment of accepted peace with banites... You made one, and then 5-6 days later you hear reports of your Citizens getting killed on their way to writ places.

Not saying it is Banites fault, and I know there is several banites who I think do a fantastic job. But it´s really hard to avoid conflict or see banites negative, with all this past, even when a new good branch comes, who really attempt to play a more trickery and sinister banite. It´s just really hard for a lot of people to adhere to such.
This issue wouldn´t even be solved with playing new characters over and over, because history is still history.

You also have to consider this odd "We must win" mentality that Arelith has definitely developed through the years. For some reason, nobody wishes to be loosing for the sake of sparkling good rp, and there for conflict is sadly imminent.

In FR setting there is really no winners, but many players of Arelith has some kind of thinking that Good always win, because that is mainstream influencing in most stories. Many comes to Arelith with inspiration from other games, not necessarily inspiration for FR lore it self.

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Preserver
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by Preserver » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:10 pm

As a former full Talonite... 8-)

I believe that into a politheistic world where the power of Gods is definitely present, then there are certain ugly elements of reality that are simply far too relevant or too scary not to be worshipped, even if just to be appeased.

This works very well for Deities that represent evil or destructive aspects of nature or of reality.
It makes sense to pray to Talona, even if she is a cruel entity, because otherwise your daughter may be caught by a terrible fever during winter and never heal. It makes sense to pray Beshaba because misfortune "just happens" and it is something which is absolutely necessary to avoid at times.

Now the more structured an evil faith becomes, the more it tends to become a matter of contentious discussion.
Because a single Talonite Priestess can be tolerated as a necessity: giving the plague-witch the occasional lip service for a specific goal. A Church that suddently emerges there brings forth further problems by suddently dressing the faith with a very unpleasant legitimacy in the public eye; it is no longer appeasing the plague-witch, it becomes worshipping the plague-witch. What was a matter of survival immediately becomes a matter of ethics.

This can of course be prevented!
A city with a hospital and a big temple of Ilmater could refuse the plague-witch because they don't have need of her. And then the Priestes of Talona decide to strike and show what they're made of by deploying a terrible plague, thus furthering the notion that disrespecting the plague-witch is BAD.

That is honestly where a lot of fun RP can be had I believe!

But yeah, short answer in my book?
Accept the evil because it is necessary in the cosmic balance and because evil tends to kick your butt in meaner ways if you don't accept it.


~ Lladria Sethassiel ~ (Dead?) - ~ Siobhan Gray ~ (Left for the mainland!) - ~ Elspeth Derlson ~

andthenthatwasthat
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:30 pm

Part of the problem is the Forgotten Realms lore on religions, which is a cartoonish mishmash. It sends players mixed signals about polytheism. On one end, there are many gods, and supposedly everybody prays to them for their different aspects irrespective of their alignment. They are all to be feared, praised, and what not because they supposedly get very involved with mortals' affairs.

But then all the powers that characters get often come from their devotion to a single deity. The decision about what happens to them in afterlife comes from a single deity. On Arelith it gets even worse because apparently that patron deity has the power to keep resurrecting dead characters as they please, and they will do it every single time. And so on.

What happens is that players often then play characters that are monotheistic in a polytheistic setting, and they see the world thought dogma of that one deity. That is why you get to see simple mortals go around screaming: "Bane is weak!" or "Mystra is a harlot!" Then they go about casting spells from the Weave as if nothing happened. Based on the Forgotten Realms lore, it seems to characters like their deity dogma can actually prevail through their own actions and that their patron deity can always protect them (because they are the only true deity, etc.).

torugor
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by torugor » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:02 am

Yea it got me really confused when i started playing arelith. Evil gods are supposed to be feared. But people know there is nothing to fear on a playing rping his god wrath specially if the player is weak. So ppl often forget that faith in forgotten realms is not only polyteist...but the gods are proven to really exist

it is not like in our world we had a polyteist religion in greek mithology and we had zeus and people believed him him but never saw him. In forgotten realms gods exists and interact closelly to people. They give cleric powers. Mystra controls all magic. If you see magic, its a god who gave it.

So people should fear evil gods because...well...talos could throw a thunderbold on you just for not fearing him.

Neutral gods have an open morality but for most paladins forget about it...you are not good...so you must die. Were i to rp torm here i would take off much of the paladin`s powers already. Because they keep forgetting its not about good only...its about law as well.



andthenthatwasthat wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:30 pm
Part of the problem is the Forgotten Realms lore on religions, which is a cartoonish mishmash. It sends players mixed signals about polytheism. On one end, there are many gods, and supposedly everybody prays to them for their different aspects irrespective of their alignment. They are all to be feared, praised, and what not because they supposedly get very involved with mortals' affairs.

But then all the powers that characters get often come from their devotion to a single deity. The decision about what happens to them in afterlife comes from a single deity. On Arelith it gets even worse because apparently that patron deity has the power to keep resurrecting dead characters as they please, and they will do it every single time. And so on.

What happens is that players often then play characters that are monotheistic in a polytheistic setting, and they see the world thought dogma of that one deity. That is why you get to see simple mortals go around screaming: "Bane is weak!" or "Mystra is a harlot!" Then they go about casting spells from the Weave as if nothing happened. Based on the Forgotten Realms lore, it seems to characters like their deity dogma can actually prevail through their own actions and that their patron deity can always protect them (because they are the only true deity, etc.).

torugor
Posts: 58
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by torugor » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:06 am

Got this very good video about gods and clerics on forgotten realms that are good for who wants to rp a cleric
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAr_lmV21UU&t=559s

andthenthatwasthat
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by andthenthatwasthat » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:31 am

torugor wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:06 am
Got this very good video about gods and clerics on forgotten realms that are good for who wants to rp a cleric
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAr_lmV21UU&t=559s
That might be the content that the OP quoted.

torugor
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Re: Why Accept Evil Faiths?

Post by torugor » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:08 pm

I like your view.

I was forced to this kind of concept ingame even without being of an evil religion. My priest is a tempuran. And tempus dont judge evil or good. War serves both sides the same. But because i was seen working with evil players people decided i am evil and got me expelled from Cordor and all goodie goodie cities.

How did my character thinks of it? Well if good cities dont want the service of a tempuran, better for all other cities. After all, a tempuran passes all day making armor, weapons, strengthning the ships and training people in combat. If cordor dont want my help as a tempuran sencliff sure wants it. And when sencliff have the bests ships in the game and the best equipped and trained soldiers in the land....cordor will suffer the consequences of taking a tempuran out of there.

My initial take was to give my services to all the cities the same, having equilibrium of forces. By taking a tempuran out of the city cordor decided i should force an umbalance. Now all other cities have my aid and i keep saying cordorians are cowards and deserve to meet better soldiers in battle.

That's my way to create consequence for the actions of good players who simply forget Tempus is the god of war, not the good of good honorable fight.



Preserver wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:10 pm
As a former full Talonite... 8-)

I believe that into a politheistic world where the power of Gods is definitely present, then there are certain ugly elements of reality that are simply far too relevant or too scary not to be worshipped, even if just to be appeased.

This works very well for Deities that represent evil or destructive aspects of nature or of reality.
It makes sense to pray to Talona, even if she is a cruel entity, because otherwise your daughter may be caught by a terrible fever during winter and never heal. It makes sense to pray Beshaba because misfortune "just happens" and it is something which is absolutely necessary to avoid at times.

Now the more structured an evil faith becomes, the more it tends to become a matter of contentious discussion.
Because a single Talonite Priestess can be tolerated as a necessity: giving the plague-witch the occasional lip service for a specific goal. A Church that suddently emerges there brings forth further problems by suddently dressing the faith with a very unpleasant legitimacy in the public eye; it is no longer appeasing the plague-witch, it becomes worshipping the plague-witch. What was a matter of survival immediately becomes a matter of ethics.

This can of course be prevented!
A city with a hospital and a big temple of Ilmater could refuse the plague-witch because they don't have need of her. And then the Priestes of Talona decide to strike and show what they're made of by deploying a terrible plague, thus furthering the notion that disrespecting the plague-witch is BAD.

That is honestly where a lot of fun RP can be had I believe!

But yeah, short answer in my book?
Accept the evil because it is necessary in the cosmic balance and because evil tends to kick your butt in meaner ways if you don't accept it.

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