Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

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chris a gogo
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by chris a gogo » Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:21 pm

I disagree with alot of whats been said so far so my thoughts on this.
Yes someone with enough potions can out heal the damage any spell caster can do. This isn't a new thing and has always been the case apart from when they would timestop GR missile spam and that only done after they had used there "pray".

Infi casting is not going to solve anything for PvP as the damage is still going to be out healed as they will have to be put on timers.

The way I see it is spell damage needs to increased disintegrate was a good example of this allowing the caster to do 720 damage per round, but it requires a ranged touch attack and then they get a save as well which makes it only useful on strength based characters the dex div builds are pretty much immune.

So an increase in base spell damage dice and tie it to evocation focuses for instant effect spells like fireball and missile storm, this could counter the heal potion spam that makes all mages useless at direct damage.

mjones3
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by mjones3 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:13 am

I think the major issue with the ability to deal 720 dpr is that its against saves. Which is much harder to get high than AC. As in you will always have an advantage over certain classes.

I am much more of a fan of adding in effects that can't be saved against like the blindness from incendiary cloud, than I am of adding straight dpr. Make it a chess game, add some few item that offer nothing other than immunity against such things. Gain immunity against blind, but no AC or SR or whatever. If you stick with straight damage its simply too easy to counter unless its magic damage, then its just cheesy.

NauVaseline
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by NauVaseline » Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:46 pm

My main 'thing' with Sorcerers is that they have extremely limited spell selection and we added a bunch of spells - I would say adding a feat that allows to select an extra level 6, then 7, then 8 (separate feats like the auto-still/silent branch) would be helpful but they're also feat starved and it'd also make them potentially too strong as they do have serious nuclear potential already

AstralUniverse
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:05 pm

Honestly timestop for vanilla wizards and sorcs should just function as per vanilla nwn + the cooldown.
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-XXX-
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by -XXX- » Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:37 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:05 pm
Honestly timestop for vanilla wizards and sorcs should just function as per vanilla nwn + the cooldown.
I'm sure that spellsword players would really welcome that :P


Seriously though, beefing up evocation spells as a solution to PvP is as lazy and unimaginative solution as it can get. It's also bad because it turns mages into one use one trick ponies - that represents just another passive problem for players to solve and once they do solve it, mages will become bad again - that's an endless circle, so let's not go this route plz.

Jordenk
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Jordenk » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:25 pm

Come into PGCC I'll show you a fun sorc build that will make you think sorc's need a nerf. The thing is it's just raw mechanical PvP power, not all the RP utility from multiple ESF's and skills. It's super min/max divine dip evoker sorc. Very scary build and IMO beats out almost everything all else being equal.

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Airport Proximity Jesus
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:10 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:25 pm
Come into PGCC I'll show you a fun sorc build that will make you think sorc's need a nerf. The thing is it's just raw mechanical PvP power, not all the RP utility from multiple ESF's and skills. It's super min/max divine dip evoker sorc. Very scary build and IMO beats out almost everything all else being equal.
Now here's the serious question
Why play a caster with out cool neato rp esfs?
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Jordenk
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Jordenk » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:20 am

Airport Proximity Jesus wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:10 pm
Jordenk wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:25 pm
Come into PGCC I'll show you a fun sorc build that will make you think sorc's need a nerf. The thing is it's just raw mechanical PvP power, not all the RP utility from multiple ESF's and skills. It's super min/max divine dip evoker sorc. Very scary build and IMO beats out almost everything all else being equal.
Now here's the serious question
Why play a caster with out cool neato rp esfs?
That's why it lives in PGCC and not in my character vault -_- hahahah!

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Hedgehog
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Hedgehog » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:37 am

Sorcerers make up for the fewer RP cookies with their power in PVP and PVE encounters and versatility in not having to prepare different spell books for different situations.

That being said, there are certain tweaks I wouldn’t mind seeing to make things a little more interesting for sorcerers when not engaged in outright fighting. The issue is the wrong adjustments can bust the class in bad ways (Or in ways that are TOO good).


They are in a really good place IMO. A lot of fun, but you have to accept you’re not going to be the almighty Elminster who knows every single spell in the book. You sacrifice that for focus and sheer, raw power.
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Jordenk
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Jordenk » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:53 am

Yah... would it break to class to get a free language like wiz getting Draconic. Easy little RP freebie that could be fun.

-XXX-
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by -XXX- » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am

You can obtain the draconic language EZ enough IG. Divorcing the sorcerer from divine shield and making it viable without being a religious fanatic would be nice [insert an obligatory favored soul mention in conjunction with the consistency argument].

Gouge Away
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Gouge Away » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:02 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am
Divorcing the sorcerer from divine shield and making it viable without being a religious fanatic would be nice
It's totally viable to build a sorc/ranger instead of paladin or BG. Possibly even advantageous in a way as you don't have to take power attack or divine shield and you get a bonus focus feat on the first ranger level so that would give you a full additional ESF over the paladin/sorc. You still get divine wands. Not having to point points in strength means more con, int or cha. But you have normal saves and no AC so you have to play more carefully- you know, like almost any other caster. That's not a weak character in the slightest it's just not absurdly OP.

-XXX-
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by -XXX- » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:39 am

Gouge Away wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:02 am
-XXX- wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am
Divorcing the sorcerer from divine shield and making it viable without being a religious fanatic would be nice
It's totally viable to build a sorc/ranger instead of paladin or BG. Possibly even advantageous in a way as you don't have to take power attack or divine shield and you get a bonus focus feat on the first ranger level so that would give you a full additional ESF over the paladin/sorc. You still get divine wands. Not having to point points in strength means more con, int or cha. But you have normal saves and no AC so you have to play more carefully- you know, like almost any other caster. That's not a weak character in the slightest it's just not absurdly OP.
Caster classes in general have a very high floor but a low ceiling. You pretty much only need not to fail putting points in your primary caster stat and will most likely end up with a perfectly serviceable character - especially with regards to PvE.

On the other hand, what are you saying? That 14 extra AC is comparable to a scribe scroll feat?
You'll need the AC in the current meta. Without it you'll be fighting an uphill battle in a PvP encounter against any of the optimized builds.
Because that's the point that I was making. Sorcerers need a buff in order to be able to compete in PvP without having to resort to Div shield. Improved expertise can't be used in combination with spellcasting, why is Div shield OK? Nerf that niche build and use the opened design space to buff the class in general.

Jordenk
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Re: Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

Post by Jordenk » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:49 pm

There are other ways to get a sorc's AC into the 60's without divine shield! :D

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