The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

[Syrima]

It's not quite so clear cut as that, and a lot of it depends on who's behind each build rather than what the actual build is. Notably it's possible to build a meleer with high enough saves that save or dies aren't a viable tactic for the mage, with immunity to the mage's best damaging spell.

Admittedly, the heal nerf made mages Much more powerful because it's harder to survive a Hellball/Greater Ruin combo now, but it's still possible.

You say that....

[grip]

It's not quite so clear cut as that, and a lot of it depends on who's behind each build rather than what the actual build is.

This.

But why are we talking about this anyways?

[Syrima]

It's not quite so clear cut as that, and a lot of it depends on who's behind each build rather than what the actual build is.

This.

But why are we talking about this anyways?

It was mentioned that mages had a advantage economic wise through feats and lack of need for suppies. I suppose my comment was a bit derailing though in hindsight.

[Seekeepeek]

hmm...
Art crafting could get more fixtures (huge fixtures, not just large) that require a lot of hard to get materials that have a mechanical power like scrying and such but they break after one use. i think DM watchtower was considering making something like that at some point? might just be me dreaming about DM watchtower, it was a long time ago.. *gasps*

Tailoring could get something that was made out of dragon hides. or fine dresses that can't be repaired but that boost social skills such as persuade for better prices on heads. they would make allso make NPCs sell stuff cheaper to you, but each time you speak to the npcs in your fancy dress it loss a charge (again they only have 1to 3 charges)

Wood workers could get more powerfull magic staff options, as staffs seams to be the things mage want in DnD. however.. since mages dos'nt get into combat often, they should only have like 1-3 charges meaning they would break easy.

Cooks should be able to craft barkskin potions with a higher caster level then those you can get from NPCs. aswell as clarity potions that last longer, now that everyone get feared.

Just brainstorming here.. no idea if any of this is possible! *ducks and covers*

[Dinosaur Space Program]

One thing that worries me about some of the responses to this thread is that I'm seeing a lot of pushing for negative reinforcement. Making life more difficult, setting caps, and imposing restrictions based on what types of characters individuals see as most problematic. I think that rebalancing systems to make a more fluid economy and character progression is a better solution than restricting characters based on superficial parameters. A guiding fence is better than a brick wall.

QFT.

Seriously guys, nerfing never goes well. Also a lot of the suggestion in this thread are made of HUGE amounts of work for the Dev team with very little return outside of 'Ha ha! Take that class or mechanic I hate! THAT'LL SHOW YOU".

The easiest solution Right Now is reducing prices on existing goods for enchanting purposes (only the lesser goods no one wants otherwise but has nice skill bonuses would be a start). Upgrading the crafting matrix will take a lot of time and brainstorming of what to put in it.

I actually like that enchanting is open to Everyone and that enchanters only get a discount. Don't limit to people only with the feats. Can it use components? I don't think that actually Helps anything. The thing is, while it is a big drive on end game gear (I am a 5% bum as well, TRM) it also is the Most Effective Goldsink we have.

Let's look at gold Piles as opposed to sinks, guys. That is what this thread is about.

Perhaps how this thread can still be useful:
What would you guys like to see put Into the crafting matrix? What would be useful? What would be not as useful but nice if it was enchantable?

I already put a +2 intelligence item on the suggestion thread. Wizards could use a little love given all the charisma gear already in the matrix.

[msterswrdsmn]

On nerfing
There are only a few things things here mentioned that I can honestly say need nerfing. Please don't. I saw some npc merchants are no longer buying scrolls. This change made me sad.

On enchanting:
Please, don't make this harder than it already is. I've blown up tons of crap and had one, ONE successful enchantment this month alone. The menu could use a clean up (ex: container enchantment when cointainers aren't avaliable on arelith, for example). Maybe a boost with some things to encourage some vareity. (1d4 massive crits is not very useful)

Yes, you can get nice stuff. Stuff that spanks the pants of craftables. This is for two reasons.
1. There are very few end-game craftables. Or even acceptable mid-level craftables
2. Enchanting has far more flexibity

That said, as someone thats done tons of enchanting and played an epic enchanter? It takes an absolute shitload of gold and time. It might reward some rich people, but it absolutely and utterly punishes the hell out of the enchanter with the xp loss.

On crafting:
This definately needs a boost. Some of this stuff has been around for over a decade, and was NEVER useful or widely crafted. Like hunter said, there are only a handful of end-game things avaliable, and the in-between's aren't that good. Some stuff has been flat out ignored. Examples?

The repeating crossbow has a whole +1 ab and a limited use of manticore spikes. We have gonnes now, so that only feasible use this thing might have is completely gone (lower levels making mass-volley shots at a lone target in groups). Yes, the charges can be reloaded with another craftable, but if one serves no purpose and is never used...well. The other has no point either.

:Arrow: There are no craftable bracers. There are no craftable rings or belts that have any additional properties.

:Arrow: A lot of stuff is from the gigaschatten era, and, coincidentally, most of the end-game-ish gear is best suited for bard/sorcs. The only +2 stat items that are craftable are all CHA based. Most wearable items have perform/persuade bonuses, which are only useful/attainable by bards.

Don't believe this favoritism was intentional? Look at the fur cloak. Its price was artifically lowered by something like 20k. And its something that, with a bit of luck with enchanting, can easily compete with the best of from-scratch basin work (+3 fort saves? yes please)

A bunch of changes were made to quarterstaves to make them move "combat friendly" (I use that loosely; making them double weapons was a terrible thing) but there are only a very small handful of craftable staves that cater to meleers.

Portal lenses require gems that take +3 RL hours to obtain, and have been made incredibly fricking difficult for a party that isn't a balanced-epic sort to find. Or, dragonkin farming.

Some craftables that might be useful for basining are utter crap due to artifical price increases. The cloaks of +5 skill are all artifically set to 10k, making any and all enchanting a 5% chance.

So on. I won't nitpick every last thing, but the point is crafting in general could use a good re-examining.

On resources
Some of these could use some tweaking as well, but not nearly as much as crafting.

For the love of god, make plant-resources respawn like everything else again. I don't think i've been shy about my hate for this, but its encouraged players to spam plant-placables EVERYWHERE because its completely normal to only get one use-per-reset out of plants. Its also made things like berries harder to find than masterly damask weapons after the first two hours the server has been up.

Druids never made a huge % of the playerbase, and the ones that are on probably have better things to do than tend every last plant on the island over and over as settlements/crafting hoarders nab that crap immediately after you tend to the plant (literally, following right behind you)

Reverting the system would help with clearing the mass of plant-placables, which would improve server performance. Sure, it'll happen again eventually, but it won't be as fast/as frequent without the incentive of "as much as possible because of one-use-per-reset". Seriously; look around the east arelith forest and count how many crafted-plants actually have a name or description.

Some mineral/gemstone drop rates are wierd. Smacking a deposit for 50+ damage a hit consecutively should drop SOMETHING, especially if it involved an epic, hour long trek though some of the most dangerous areas on the island.

When a good portion of the high-end crafting recipes depend on said resources, it shouldn't be a surprise when suddenly said craftables are stupidly hard to reliably come by.

[CragOrion]

So, I think the one thing that most of us can agree on that would help out, is that the crafting system needs some love. To keep things constructive, I think the next step is to start plugging suggestions for crafting items.

To that end, I started a thread. If you have any ideas, please post them. The easier we make things for staff, the more likely they'll be to make changes(i'd wager)

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3513

[Ebonstar]

my two cents.
My character is a hauler. he gathers resources for alot of people. some are simple, some are a bit harder. Sand and coal are done in sets of 100 usually 50/50 split sometimes others. Hides, sinews, silk, dust, all things people need. ore as well.
As such one of his buyers put him on the payroll to keep getting stone metal meat and such as much as can be carried for the city.
My character is also a fighter, and he goes killing things. yes he ends up with alot of things he sells to merchants for gold, but its not the main source of income.
he has learned that some priests sell the healing kits he can use for a more affordable price, but he isnt always at that temple, so when he is he stocks up.
Just an example that resource gatherers do exist still. Hes level 17 by the way.
He also cares for and makes his own gear. He pounds the dents from his armor, hones his blade resets fresh metal into rents and holes. He stabs his fingers when trying to do minor sewing, and can achieve rudimentary gem cuts.
He is also the most fun ive had at the game in years.

Now if we want to make things more interesting, make it so some crafting is class specific. Why would someone who devotes his time and training to fight toe to toe with huge creatures, be an alchemist? Or why would someone who spends their time surrounded by rare lore and magics, sweat over a hot forge?

People speak of this economy and how some things are not worth this or not worth that, or why bother having this.
Make the crafting for your class, make the basin the same way, then when the guy who makes his sword and wants to make it special, he does what you do in Pnp, you find an enchanter.

[Razmo_de]

I'll restate an observation I made earlier.
Its not so much about the amount of gold, but about the relative influx.
Gold will always come in through adventuring first.
Its THE source of gold coins.
Adventurers will have the money. Always. And they are the ones who can spend it.
Sure, you can tweak the balance so that a lvl 15 makes about the same amount as an epic player. And its probably wise to adjust insane gold-dropping high-end dungeons.
Bottom line is though, the grinders will have the money. The merchants only get rich if they sell things adventurers want.
Why is the economy down? Not because theres too much gold, there are fewer merchant players. And fewer crafters. Crafting is not and never will be more profitable than grinding. That leaves the players who like crafting to fuel the economy. Simple as that.

[Kuma]

Why would someone who devotes his time and training to fight toe to toe with huge creatures, be an alchemist? Or why would someone who spends their time surrounded by rare lore and magics, sweat over a hot forge?

Because it fits the character?

Also, this thread is months old.

[grip]

Because it fits the character?

Also, this thread is months old.

Ah-yeah, this. All two of 'em.

[dirza]

Every faction has her crafter who supplies. Her enchanter who enchants for her. Usually for free or the basic cost.

Natural - you wanna arm your group well, you dont charge them like Games Workshop on Age of Sigmar with 120 pounds per 20 miniatures

That leaves merchants to those who dont walk in factions/friendly groups.

Also, when every warrior almost, is a smith, you will hardly sell weapons for example, in bigger ammount.

[rat0a]

The smith trade needs some love for sure.

Competition was hard because like someone said above every guild
have a smith, it won't help that many smiths forge for free to their buddies.

But now is even worse. Since the fighter Bonus came life like I predicted many
will keep they bronze starting armor for the life of the character.

Don't believe me. Just look at the few smith shops around Cordor. They have
the same inventory for months. One master smith at Cordor told me that the only
thing selling at his shop is greensteel shields anything else is been there for months now.

[dirza]

When the update to UD server went live, my friend estabilished a shop and his idea was to sell masterly damask weapons for 10 000 each. These weapons were in shop for weeks, until certain person took it over (after that common reset-release property bug) and gave it out for free to random persons-