The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by grip » Fri May 29, 2015 10:12 am

Sazu wrote:If you want to give crafted items more worth, make basin enchanted items unrepairable(like artifacts). Then it's getting the crafted permanent item vs paying to have someone enchant items repeatedly.

Then you'd see ALOT more crafting in action.
Then you would see players dropping off the server when there hard earned, and I mean hard earned, enchanted items start depleting. People would adventure far less once they were high level so as to preserve there precious items. Do we want to promote people standing around town or people out doing stuff other than crafting/enchanting all the day long?

Lets keep in mind the fun factor here, guys. Does anyone really want to see the server go the way of constantly needed to resupply not only consumables, but gear as well? There are not enough enchanters to supply the market, not would I like to the the server explode with characters having just enough Bard/Cleric/Mage/Bla, bla, bla to get GSF: Enchantment.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Syrima » Fri May 29, 2015 1:24 pm

What about RP based gold sinks? For example: sacrafice X million amount of gold and you can have a major DM event or something.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Jagel » Fri May 29, 2015 1:42 pm

Syrima wrote:What about RP based gold sinks? For example: sacrafice X million amount of gold and you can have a major DM event or something.
Unless it's something automated it's probably going to be impossible to administer fairly.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Syrima » Fri May 29, 2015 4:23 pm

Jagel wrote:
Syrima wrote:What about RP based gold sinks? For example: sacrafice X million amount of gold and you can have a major DM event or something.
Unless it's something automated it's probably going to be impossible to administer fairly.
The example I use was meant as if the spender had some event in mind, they could contact a DM to work with them to arrange it, not say "DM GIVE ME AN EVENT" and the DM has to come up with it, and it was only an example.

Theres probably hundreds of RP related money sinkholes, another example being able to use effects for a day or week or something to make your own RP event. There could be special effects fixtures. Imagination is the limit. Another example, see if you can get a book published to spawn randomly in chests.

I just think an RP sinkhole is the best way as it actually has the potential to offer something unique everytime, RP can be built from it, and more than the spender can enjoy it.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Sazu » Fri May 29, 2015 5:23 pm

Actually no one would leave the server.

And the items could start being unrepairable after the change, while items that were basin enchanted before the change could remain.

And seriously? Hard-Earned enchanted item? It wasn't hard earned when you went out and grinded some dungeon and came back with a huge bag full of gold and handed it to some enchanter. Hell I used to have friends do all the killing while I collected the gold.

CRAFTED items are MORE hard-earned, take more time and effort to make, and they should be better than basin enchanted items.

And let's be honest, we've had many huge changes in the server, and I have yet to see anyone leave in droves.


Edited: Also they wouldn't leave... they'd just start getting crafted items, which would be like the new version of enchanting.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Mr_Rieper » Fri May 29, 2015 5:42 pm

Sazu wrote:Actually no one would leave the server.

And the items could start being unrepairable after the change, while items that were basin enchanted before the change could remain.

And seriously? Hard-Earned enchanted item? It wasn't hard earned when you went out and grinded some dungeon and came back with a huge bag full of gold and handed it to some enchanter. Hell I used to have friends do all the killing while I collected the gold.

CRAFTED items are MORE hard-earned, take more time and effort to make, and they should be better than basin enchanted items.

And let's be honest, we've had many huge changes in the server, and I have yet to see anyone leave in droves.


Edited: Also they wouldn't leave... they'd just start getting crafted items, which would be like the new version of enchanting.
Let's not forget we're playing D&D here. Magic items are the staple of this fantasy world, and the best kind of magic items are the ones with history and great flavor text. The basin allows us to create items for power-building and dumping obscene amounts of cash, but it also allows us to create unique items with interesting stats and rich lore, to pass down to future generations of characters. This is the reason my character became an enchanter (besides the style of the magic itself) so I could create interesting heirloom items for other characters.

I think most people remember their first Ring of Fortitude +1, and are familiar with the description it had. For something like that to happen, it had to stand the test of time. Making enchanted items disposable is against the spirit of D&D.

Ideally, I'd like to see crafted items being able to get enchanted as well. As it stands, everybody sticks to Bronze unless there's a mechanical reason to do otherwise. I don't even know what kind of items my character can equip, because if I experimented, I'd have a whole lot of worthless junk on my hands from the crafting system. Junk that took ages to make.
Syrima wrote:What about RP based gold sinks? For example: sacrafice X million amount of gold and you can have a major DM event or something.
Gold is an IC construct, it should be used for IC things. We're roleplaying on a pretty sophisticated server, where the main city (Cordor) has councilors that are in control of some pretty intimidating tasks, including managing the city's budget and resources. I don't see why we need things such as goldsinks when the cities themselves already consume resources which are then banished to the void. Not to mention using a goldsink is the easy way out. Ask yourselves this, if you had a lot of money in RL, what would you do with it and why? Is it as simple as earning an income and spending it on whatever you want every month?

I understand this game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Taxes & Trigonometry. But having mechanical things that are just poorly disguised goldsinks is something that a PvE or PvP server does, not an RP server. This isn't World of Warcraft, we should be able to roleplay this out realistically.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Hunter548 » Fri May 29, 2015 6:06 pm

The reason everyone goes for enchanted gear over crafted gear is because 95% of the crafted gear is utter shit. Complete and total garbage. Making enchantments temporary, or only making crafted gear enchantable, or making enchanted gear unrepairable isn't going to lead to some crafting Renaissance. It's going to lead to every build that isn't a charisma based caster (and to a slightly lesser extent, dexterity based anythings) taking a gigantic nerf across the board, because those are the only classes that anything craftable actually helps them.

Instead of making enchantment worse, making crafting worthwhile.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Kuma » Fri May 29, 2015 6:11 pm

Sazu wrote:CRAFTED items are MORE hard-earned, take more time and effort to make, and they should be better than basin enchanted items.
Arguments could be made for both sides of this and I'm not going to address that. Instead, I would prefer to see Enchantment act more like a crafting skill. It already does, to a certain extent - it has DCs (success percentages), consequences for failure (destruction of item; and loss of XP), and a way to make one better at it (enchantment focuses; godsaves).

One key difference: instead of ingredients, raw cash which can be ground out of literally anyone and anything on the server.

I have to make a concerted effort to go to place X to acquire ingredient Y to make item Z. Perhaps I even have to find a crafter of another discipline to process Y into Processed Y, to make item Z of my own discipline. Going to that place means knowing that you can even get Y from there, which means interaction. Furthermore it requires knowing what's needed to get there, survive the things there, and get out alive, and doing this repeatedly. It takes, at the very least, some level of skill, and oftentimes interaction.

Enchanters, by contrast, need a pile of cash which can be gotten from places A-Z, the only key differences being the amount and the time. Similarly, you can keep throwing this resource, which doesn't discriminate in its source and can be acquired through actions unconnected to your discipline (you don't go out to acquire Enchanting Gold, just generic gold. The same resource you get for handing over a Leader's Head is used for enchanting and buying lenses, for example). You only need to procure the item to be enchanted (which can at times be literally farmed from trash loot), throw this universal reagent of cash at it, and hope it works. There is very little actual penalty for this, though it can be a frustrating and time-consuming process in and of itself that non-Enchanters often don't appreciate. I certainly didn't have much respect for their woes 'til I played one. The process, however, is simpler, even if the "understanding" makes it something more of an art and science to get your head around, certainly compared to "here's a DC, here's a list of ingredients, here's what it makes".

tl;dr: Crafting is easy to understand, hard to see through, and time consuming.
Enchanting is more of a skill, the actual process is simple, and generally quicker.

So, what's my suggestion? Turn Enchantment into a parallel Crafting Skill influenced as it is right now by random chance, Enchantment focuses, godsaves, and RNGesus. But furthermore, introduce ingredients to this. Your typical magely fare, a brand new suite of chemicals, bizarre concoctions, seemingly-random objects, alchemical (as in lead-to-gold style thematics) thingies, and so on and so forth. Skilled enchanters (via spell focus and godsaves) are likely to use less of them in their efforts, or save some if/when they fail. But perhaps most importantly, these Reagents should, particularly for high-level enchanting, require high-DC crafting skills to create.

That Dragon's Blood needs to be carefully processed to remove impurities (Alchemy), that Beholder Eye has to be crystalised (Art Crafting), those spirits need to be distilled into aqua vitae (Cooking), lead fume has to be gathered from the flues of a smelter (Forging), and so on and so forth.

I could develop this idea further if there's any interest, but I also think a large part of this should be the discovery of Formulae (recipes) through sheer trial, error, and experimentation, rather than a known Book of Trade. Ravenloft has a somewhat similar but also hilariously dangerous twist on this.
Hunter548 wrote:Instead of making enchantment worse, making crafting worthwhile.
Quite right. Crafting atm is a decade outdated, and perhaps my entire idea delineated above could be consigned to scrap and instead raise the bar on Crafted goods to somewhere approaching what can be done with basins. Although I do think more Modular Crafting would go some way to prevent crafted goods that are too generic to be useful and too specific to be made, which is a serious problem with the current matrix. Or of course items that are so woefully underpowered to be absolutely useless, and never used for over a decade (Warded Leather Suits).

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by grip » Fri May 29, 2015 6:17 pm

Sazu wrote:And seriously? Hard-Earned enchanted item? It wasn't hard earned when you went out and grinded some dungeon and came back with a huge bag full of gold and handed it to some enchanter. Hell I used to have friends do all the killing while I collected the gold.
Yes, seriously. Perhaps it is different for some to get high-end enchanted gear, seems that it is for you. But I, and presumably many others, have to work very hard to find an epic enchanter, convince them to create the items you want, and then pay the insane sums of gold this costs. In fact earning the gold for the sets of Epic Gear my characters have had was a huge portion of the fun to me. As opposed to grind, hand over gold, get items it was a little more... interactive than that sounds.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Dinosaur Space Program » Fri May 29, 2015 7:19 pm

End product of this entire thread:

Upgrade crafting matrix, lower item worth on some of it, ????, profit.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Kuma » Fri May 29, 2015 7:21 pm

Dinosaur Space Program wrote:End product of this entire thread:

Upgrade crafting matrix, lower item worth on some of it, ????, profit.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by CragOrion » Fri May 29, 2015 9:03 pm

QFT
Kuma wrote:QFT
Dinosaur Space Program wrote:End product of this entire thread:

Upgrade crafting matrix, lower item worth on some of it, ????, profit.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Dalenger » Fri May 29, 2015 9:13 pm

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I would pay for that game.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by The Man of the Moon » Fri May 29, 2015 10:08 pm

QFT? ...QFT!
CragOrion wrote:QFT
Kuma wrote:QFT
Dinosaur Space Program wrote:End product of this entire thread:

Upgrade crafting matrix, lower item worth on some of it, ????, profit.
This thread is going to beat some record soon... :lol:
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by The Rambling Midget » Fri May 29, 2015 10:10 pm

I believe that three nested quotes is the maximum allowed.

So no.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by The Man of the Moon » Fri May 29, 2015 10:11 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote:I believe that three nested quotes is the maximum allowed.

So no.
I didn't refer to the quotes but to the thread

91 posts and raising... a good amount. Yes, gold seems important...
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Norfildor » Fri May 29, 2015 11:01 pm

I see multiple dimensions in this complex issue:

1) goods area
- basin vs. crafted
- consumable vs. permanent

1) character area
- mundane vs. spellcaster
- new characters vs. old characters


1) goods area

- basin vs. enchanted
As has been mentionned, players for the most part prefer to use the basin over the crafting system. I don't think that this is solely for the reason that the crafted items rarely live up to the quality of items created by the basin, but there is also another reason - customisation.
Suggestion: Make crafting work like enchanting. For example you'd need to use a specified amount of resources and pass a predetermined tailoring crafting check DC in order to make gloves of two +1 ability stats and one +2 skill stat - you choose which ones it will be once required crafting points have been spent on the product.
Alternative suggestion: Make a fine elven boots kind of item for every item slot and ability to give players the option of choosing between +2 ability items from the crafting menu or +1/+1 items from the enchantment basin and/or combining them as they see fit.

- consumables vs. permanent
This is somewhat a more obvious matter. A smith or a tailor will never be as rich as an alchemist or a cook. One of the reasons for that is that the items which are the most prominent and sought after from tailoring and forging crafting menu last forever, so the customer buys one and the bussiness relationship between the buyer and the seller thereby is concluded, whereas the most often desired items from the cooking and alchemy crafting menu are perishable, which means that the customer will keep coming back periodically. (also, did I mention that fighters now laugh at all them smiths and their masterly damask swords and adamantine armors?!)
Suggestion: Redistribute useful consumables among all crafting menus. Right now they seem to have concentrated mainly in alchemy and that is bad.


2) character area

- mundane vs. spellcaster
This is an long-lasting topic as spellcasters on arelith appear to be advantaged in every possible field concievable and this one is no exception. Needless to add that the implemmentation of infini-casters made things even worse in regards of economy, because as has been mentionned, spellcasters don't need to invest as much resources into perishables as they can cast wandable spells themselves and rarely ever get damaged, so they don't have the need for healing kits that often (even if they cannot cast healing spells themselves like clerics do).
To make things even worse, there are certain feats that you can use to earn gold coins - namely craft wand, scribe scroll and brew potion. These are accessible ONLY to spellcaster characters. Then there is also enchanting tied to enchantment spell focuses which is also a very profitable ability that is again accessible ONLY to spellcasting characters.
At a first glance this appears to be promoting character interaction, but it is not the case as a large number of players when making their next chracter opt to make a spellcaster as it is "the obvious choice", so in the long run this only kills class variety (and the economy, since Arelith mages appear to literally possess the same ability that Tywin Lannister was famous for).
Suggestion: NPC wand shops. Ner~ Tweak enchantment skill focuses. Lower the cost of healing kits. (honestly, i don't know how to fix this issue, but I felt the need to mention and acknowlege it as I think that it does contribute to the discussed matter in a detrimental way).

- new characters vs. old characters
As irongron mentionned before, player numbers are good, but the number of new characters is decreasing.
Let's face it - we're always the same people. This is an old game and there aren't really many new players joining in. Furthermore, let's be honest with ourselves here, most of us don't feel the urge to go through the whole levelling up circus for the 10th time and don't want to have our character's plans have ruined by an intervening epic so we stick with our current high lvl character.
The 5% option does incentivise a part of the player base to roll up new characters, but not in a good way - you have either players who don't care for it and will play their current character forever or players who will mindlessly grind over and over until they finally get to play the character they dreamt about and play it forever.
This further demotivates people from rolling up a new character as they'll have trouble finding other characters to level up with.
I mention this because this issue reflects further on the economy - epic characters don't need permanent items. They already have their masterly damask weapon and adamantine armour, a full gear with 5+ properties and a 5/- essence on each piece. This practically means that the only "healthy" market is the one for consumable perishables like wands and potions (which mostly only spellcasters can make btw.).
Suggestion: Make it possible for a casual player to reach max lvl whithin a week (or a month)... In a nutshell speed up the level progression considerably in order to smoothen up character circulation.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat May 30, 2015 2:32 am

I've long been against the Enchanting system. It rewards wealthy, high level characters, who can afford hundreds of thousand gold and thousands of XP to get the item you desire. Crafting on the other hand desires Work and Interaction, and outside of a few token items (the Big Five - masterly damask weaponry, fine eleven boots, fur cloak, some of that charisma gear, essences) there's not many other equipment staples.

Enchanting should require material components that require crafting. Enchanting XP should scale with your level, and not have flat penalties. Crafting should also allow for more diverse "base" items that have a key focus on material "bases" - there should be variation in what you can craft, based off of items involved. Think of something akin to Inquisition.

Additionally, you should be able to use crafting points to break down crafted items into heir components with a % percentage. Devaluing certain crafted items (like adamantine gear) devalues adamantine which devalues all dungeons with adamantine which devalues dungeon diversity and advenuring.

There has been no gear change since the Fighter changes. I still think there needs to be one- 5 levels of fighter (a common denominator in a lot of builds) terminates any reason for Steel's current existence. Let alone the benign difference between Bronze and Iron. There needs to be more meaningful crafting.

Arelith's Economy is certainly complex, and needs to maintain a proper balance between crafted material, raw goods, enchanted goods, and magical items- I believe all currently are devalued because their significance rises and falls together rather than separately.

I think it starts with crafting and enchanting changes.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Syrima » Sat May 30, 2015 2:41 am

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Syrima wrote:What about RP based gold sinks? For example: sacrafice X million amount of gold and you can have a major DM event or something.
Gold is an IC construct, it should be used for IC things. We're roleplaying on a pretty sophisticated server, where the main city (Cordor) has councilors that are in control of some pretty intimidating tasks, including managing the city's budget and resources. I don't see why we need things such as goldsinks when the cities themselves already consume resources which are then banished to the void. Not to mention using a goldsink is the easy way out. Ask yourselves this, if you had a lot of money in RL, what would you do with it and why? Is it as simple as earning an income and spending it on whatever you want every month?

I understand this game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Taxes & Trigonometry. But having mechanical things that are just poorly disguised goldsinks is something that a PvE or PvP server does, not an RP server. This isn't World of Warcraft, we should be able to roleplay this out realistically.
It's not hard to keep it IC. "I sacraficed all this gold to X god and now he's making an appearence."
"I paid X gold to get a rediculous amount of copies of my book created and now it's everywhere"

And if theres infinite gold that gets created everyday from killing enemies (which are in 95% of the areas of this game) you're going to have inflation unless theres sinks into void that X money got created from. I'm not really sure what the arugment is here unless you want a hyper realistic system with a fixed amount of gold.

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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sat May 30, 2015 2:55 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:I've long been against the Enchanting system. It rewards wealthy, high level characters, who can afford hundreds of thousand gold and thousands of XP to get the item you desire.
I've always thought of enchanting as the thing that you do to get the absolute best gear, once you have everything else you need, while crafting is what you use to get passable gear in the meantime. It's always been an effective gold sink for me, but that may be because I'm a 5% gear fanatic.

Your phrasing suggests that wealth itself is the problem, but it isn't. The problem is the ease with which a singular character can achieve it. If you want to be a millionaire and have all of the best things, there shouldn't be anything to stand in your way, and there certainly shouldn't be any punishment for attaining it, but it should take considerable effort and teamwork, and be very difficult to achieve alone, especially through grinding.

What I do agree with is that the crafting system could do with some updates and alterations based on what has been observed to be useful, specifically on Arelith. A lot of the items are largely unused, and many are only useful for a very brief span of levels, due to ILR and inflated values.

One thing that worries me about some of the responses to this thread is that I'm seeing a lot of pushing for negative reinforcement. Making life more difficult, setting caps, and imposing restrictions based on what types of characters individuals see as most problematic. I think that rebalancing systems to make a more fluid economy and character progression is a better solution than restricting characters based on superficial parameters. A guiding fence is better than a brick wall.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat May 30, 2015 3:19 am

I was making more of a implicit connection between wealth and reclusiveness and isolated growth, yeah, stuff you mentioned TRM. I'm being cynical when saying "wealth" because, as Scurvy Cur mentioned, wealth can just meaning going to the Island Ruins 50 times in a month.

Edit: also, syrima, in no world would we want wealthy characters the ability to access such omnipotent powers like deities because they have a lot of gp. Arelith already doesn't do enough to empower quality- more often investment. And most of the time, gp is time invested that can separate from quality. The last thing we want to happen is give a bunch of people with 10 RPR with ambiguous farming practices the ability to summon divine intervention. It's not a value we should be promoting. To me, at least.
Last edited by Seven Sons of Sin on Sat May 30, 2015 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Dalenger » Sat May 30, 2015 3:21 am

The Rambling Midget wrote: One thing that worries me about some of the responses to this thread is that I'm seeing a lot of pushing for negative reinforcement.
So the positively reinforced ideas I think I've seen thrown around (plus the difficulty of implication):

1) Add more to the crafting matrix (medium)

2) Reduce the value of crafted items as to allow additional enchantments (easy)

3) Allow each city it's own separate bank and link banks to their respective settlements (difficult)
Norfildor wrote:Make it possible for a casual player to reach max lvl whithin a week (or a month)
You forget that it is in the very design of the server that epic characters be exactly that: epic and rare; just as it is lowbie characters are supposed to be just that: Mundane and common.
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Syrima » Sat May 30, 2015 5:28 am

Norfildor wrote: 2) character area

- mundane vs. spellcaster
This is an long-lasting topic as spellcasters on arelith appear to be advantaged in every possible field concievable and this one is no exception. Needless to add that the implemmentation of infini-casters made things even worse in regards of economy, because as has been mentionned, spellcasters don't need to invest as much resources into perishables as they can cast wandable spells themselves and rarely ever get damaged, so they don't have the need for healing kits that often (even if they cannot cast healing spells themselves like clerics do).
To make things even worse, there are certain feats that you can use to earn gold coins - namely craft wand, scribe scroll and brew potion. These are accessible ONLY to spellcaster characters. Then there is also enchanting tied to enchantment spell focuses which is also a very profitable ability that is again accessible ONLY to spellcasting characters.
At a first glance this appears to be promoting character interaction, but it is not the case as a large number of players when making their next chracter opt to make a spellcaster as it is "the obvious choice", so in the long run this only kills class variety (and the economy, since Arelith mages appear to literally possess the same ability that Tywin Lannister was famous for).
Suggestion: NPC wand shops. Ner~ Tweak enchantment skill focuses. Lower the cost of healing kits. (honestly, i don't know how to fix this issue, but I felt the need to mention and acknowlege it as I think that it does contribute to the discussed matter in a detrimental way).
This is kinda how I always felt (at mid-low levels), though I'm not really amazing at NWN or D&D so I doubted myself a bit.

How I've seen it:
Magic > Tank > Flanker

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Hunter548
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Hunter548 » Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

It's not quite so clear cut as that, and a lot of it depends on who's behind each build rather than what the actual build is. Notably it's possible to build a meleer with high enough saves that save or dies aren't a viable tactic for the mage, with immunity to the mage's best damaging spell.

Admittedly, the heal nerf made mages Much more powerful because it's harder to survive a Hellball/Greater Ruin combo now, but it's still possible.
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Norfildor
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Re: The Arelithian Economy: You Can't Eat Gold

Post by Norfildor » Sat May 30, 2015 6:04 am

Dalenger wrote:
Norfildor wrote:Make it possible for a casual player to reach max lvl whithin a week (or a month)
You forget that it is in the very design of the server that epic characters be exactly that: epic and rare; just as it is lowbie characters are supposed to be just that: Mundane and common.
Yeah, if that's the case then it fails miserably. Just click on the server status port and you'll see more epic characters on than non-epics ...and that applies literally at ANY given time.

Ironically, faster level progression will make low level characters more common as players will be more likely to start up new character projects and less likely to stick with just one character.

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