Should Good Alignment monsters be rarer?

[Echohawk]

To start with, I at least think at the very least yes they absolutely should be rarer. I also feel like alignment isn't observed/enforced enough with a being that persists by necessity in the underdark.

My suggestion on its own would be to move it to a greater or even major reward, or remove it all together presently.
It's not roleplayed well that I've seen, I certainly won't name names for that purpose. But it's basically an excuse to give them access to paladin as a class and basically nothing else.

Feelings of others to follow, agree or disagree.

[Yma23]

I dissagree with removing it, but moving it to a greater might be reasonable as an idea. However right now Normal awards are really dull.

This is what you have as an option of a Normal Award.

Normal: -2 ECL applied to your character OR one of the following:

Access to the Troglodyte race.
Access to the Derro race.
Good alignment for an innately-evil race (as kobolds or drow), and viceversa. Note this does not make a surface monster, solely a good monster, and vice-versa.
Non-Evil Pale Master

So basicaly
*underdark race
*underdark race
*underdark race but you can play it a bit like a surfacer
*chance to play an evil character as not entirely evil.

Not to disrespect the underdark - it's a wonderful excellent setting full of some brilliant, welcoming, kind, and excellent RPers. But it's not to everyones taste.
Basicaly - if I want to use my award on a 'good' character, I HAVE to make it a good monster. I think there's something wrong with that.

I don't know that adding something else in will 'fix' the problem, and as I said I actually agree with the idea of making it greater (you've obviously had some bad experiences, I've met quite a few truly excellent Good Underdarker concepts. I susspect that the bad ones just shine out the more because sadly bad apples often are more obvious) but I think filling the niche in normal awards with something interesting, for none evil characters would be good too.

[Sea Shanties]

However right now Normal awards are really dull.

There's always the ECL but it's pretty meaningless with the writ system now. Instead of -2 ECL I think a normal award could just let you start a character at level 9 or something.

[theCountofMonteCristo]

Normal Award for an extra Minor gift?


Edit: and to the meat of the topic: I don't think so? I don't know. I can't say I've run into many 'good' monsters. I know of one Kobold I met that I'm pretty sure was good aligned but that's it.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

I'm not sure. I'm reasonably happy with how things stand. I've met some mediocre good monsters and some really, really excellent good monsters, who do the concept and all it implies justice. I've seen very few paladins, but my experience is fairly biased by my playtime.

Moving it to a major reward might reduce the number of poorly-realised concepts, but it would also cull the ones that do it well, which seems to me a shame. If it's an epidemic then it might be a fair answer, but I don't have the data to say just how many there are.

[Brandon Steel]

Never really noticed it as an issue honestly, but maybe that's just me. As someone else here pointed out though, the normal rewards are pretty dull and entirely UD focused.

[satan]

What's the difference? Most of the population of the underdark ACT good aligned anyway. For real evil (killing undesirables on sight without mercy, xenophobia, etc )just head over to guldorand

[Echohawk]

What's the difference? Most of the population of the underdark ACT good aligned anyway. For real evil (killing undesirables on sight without mercy, xenophobia, etc )just head over to guldorand

About that (lmao, foig friend)

But it goes beyond that. I realize that most people 'don't think there's anything wrong with the ones they've seen.'
They might not even believe that there's anything wrong with what they're doing, even if it is a poor show of the alignment.
There isn't another place for good monsters to live. And there's not really any race you can turn evil anymore so the reward is now good monsters only (you could make an evil fey but that was about it).

However they're living in a place with open and brutal slavery, gambling over blood-sports, and so on and so forth. But I never see any of them actually rallying to put a stop to any of those behaviors. They just let everything happen and participate with those who allow cuddle-gnolls and cuddle-kobolds on the surface, who can just as easily be neutral and my issues completely resolved. They can even be harpers but the only thing they would not physically be able to be is paladins.

I have never once seen a good monster roleplayed well. Perhaps that's just my experience, but I've seen more than a few. And I expected no one to really agree with me so no harm done.

[Vrass]

Guldorand does not just randomly kill people even if they are evil. I hang out there often and rarely are there any lynchings unless provoked. Maybe in the past certain people in Guldorand did so but if so they are not there anymore to my knowledge so those who are afraid to visit because they heard rumors about Guld being murder-happy can relax... those players are gone.

[Huschpfusch]

Since good monsters already are rare, I do not think it would be necessary to lock them behind even higher awards.
DM talks to problematic good monster players probably achieve more, since that conversation could give specifics for players to be mindful of in their further rp.

Though I am in favor of moving the combination good monster + paladinlevels at least one step further up the reward ladder.
Being a paladin is more than being just good aligned. Paladins are very pro-active about promoting goodness.
RP-ing a paladin in UD environment (= hostile environment) requires very deep rp.
It is a concept that sticks out even among the small population of good UDlers.
It is more rare than just being good in UD.

Last but not least, those ones who picked paladin class for numbers in UD should probably just be reported like the odd occassional evil paladin on surface. Though one should always keep in mind that what is seen of character in public is not necessarily all what that character does.

[Nitro]

Even when rare, a poorly played good aligned monster can be so jarring and impactful that it stretches your suspension of disbelief and makes it feel like it's a larger problem than it is. I've personally seen more than one monster paladin skipping any trust building activities and just going to the surface to go "I'm a paladin, that means I'm a good guy, you can trust me I'm even in the radiant heart!". And drow wandering around in elven forests going "Yes but see I'm not one of the bad ones teehee."

So yes, I'd be all for making it rarer, or even putting it behind an application like shifter is because I feel like a lot of the good aligned monsters (Not all of them) don't have a plan for being good beyond "Going to the surface and living there instead".

[Ebonstar]

considering that good monsters are supposed to be a freak of nature, that you would ever hear about, save in a random drunken tavern tale, and even then it wasnt them being good,

as the situation to save themselves simply happened to make them look good at that moment.

At no time should a good monster be able to join a paladin surface order in game just because the mechanics allow such.

This goes back to "Sure the engine allows it, but Should you really do it? " question.

" Good Monsters" are the Drizzt syndrome. A great literary device, but total shitshow for actual gameplay.

I would not make it an app simply because the DM's have enough to do, but make it a Major Award to bring it back to that one in a billion rarity, instead of one in a hundred.

[Kalopsia]

There isn't another place for good monsters to live.
[...]
I never see any of them actually rallying to put a stop to any of those behaviors. They just let everything happen and participate with those who allow cuddle-gnolls and cuddle-kobolds on the surface, who can just as easily be neutral and my issues completely resolved.
[...]
I have never once seen a good monster roleplayed well.

As a former player of an Eilistraeean Drow (some of you might remember Qil'nafae), I'd like to share my perspective on some of your observations.

In fact, you've answered your primary concern with the first sentence. Openly promoting good would get these characters exiled from the only city where their race is tolerated, as they could not, and, for the sake of setting integrity, should not manage to rally a force strong enough to suppress Andunor's evil tendencies.

"Surface Drow" which openly fight for a good purpose without relying on subtlety and disguises are doable and have been played in the past (in fact, Qil'nafae was one), but doing so is very challenging for various reasons, one of which being the vulnerability to sunlight. I often found myself logging in, only to realize I'd have to AFK for an hour because I was essentially locked in my surface shelter due to the current daytime. Portal lens, supplies and even access to messengers was scarce as monsters, even good-aligned ones, are not welcome in surface settlements. That is why why both leveling and finding RP was very challenging at times.

It's also why most good-aligned monsters are very, very secretive about their alignment. I'd even go as far as to say that some of the best roleplayed ones have been those no one expected to be such. Mistakes can happen, and if a prisoner escaped due to a hidden portal lens a guard "didn't spot", few would accuse this guard of being good-aligned. That is often the extent of good-aligned monster RP in Andunor.

[The GrumpyCat]

At no time should a good monster be able to join a paladin surface order in game just because the mechanics allow such.

Whilst there have been sitatuions where a PC has done this, we've called them up on it and removed the ring.

To make this utterly clear - whilst it may not be mechancially locked right now (I dont think?) as a DM I am telling any good aligned monster player now - you cannot join the Radient Heart. They would not accept it.

[Nitro]

It's also why most good-aligned monsters are very, very secretive about their alignment. I'd even go as far as to say that some of the best roleplayed ones have been those no one expected to be such. Mistakes can happen, and if a prisoner escaped due to a hidden portal lens a guard "didn't spot", few would accuse this guard of being good-aligned. That is often the extent of good-aligned monster RP in Andunor.

That's the crux of the matter and why a lot of good monsters, dragon PC's, Rakshasas etc are jarring, because they flaunt their special snowflake status and are incredibly obnoxious to the setting integrity when doing so. A well played special race or good aligned monster is the kind that you might never find out is one, not the one that walks up and goes "Hey I'm an Ellistraean, you can trust me "

[satan]

What's the difference? Most of the population of the underdark ACT good aligned anyway. For real evil (killing undesirables on sight without mercy, xenophobia, etc )just head over to guldorand

About that (lmao, foig friend)

But it goes beyond that. I realize that most people 'don't think there's anything wrong with the ones they've seen.'
They might not even believe that there's anything wrong with what they're doing, even if it is a poor show of the alignment.
There isn't another place for good monsters to live. And there's not really any race you can turn evil anymore so the reward is now good monsters only (you could make an evil fey but that was about it).

However they're living in a place with open and brutal slavery, gambling over blood-sports, and so on and so forth. But I never see any of them actually rallying to put a stop to any of those behaviors. They just let everything happen and participate with those who allow cuddle-gnolls and cuddle-kobolds on the surface, who can just as easily be neutral and my issues completely resolved. They can even be harpers but the only thing they would not physically be able to be is paladins.

I have never once seen a good monster roleplayed well. Perhaps that's just my experience, but I've seen more than a few. And I expected no one to really agree with me so no harm done.

~Snipped by the Moderation Team~

[DM Wraith]

Please remember to leave IC events and information IC. As well, remember we are all one community that is working collaboratively to write our characters narratives, and to a greater extent the narrative of Arelith. If you believe there is a rules violation, please report it to the DM team and we will address those issues accordingly.

[Rockstar1984]

If you've never seen a good monster rped well, it's because the ones that are rped very well you simply don't know about because they are rping it well. There are many good monsters that fight bad things, especially slavery.

*Cool former Eilistraeean player nails a point*

Thank *Clap* You *Clap*

[satan]

Please remember to leave IC events and information IC. As well, remember we are all one community that is working collaboratively to write our characters narratives, and to a greater extent the narrative of Arelith. If you believe there is a rules violation, please report it to the DM team and we will address those issues accordingly.

Nothing in my post you deleted was a rules violation afaik. I was simply offering an example of how what a characters alignment sheet says doesn't always (or even usually) reflect that characters behaviour. If that's a rule violation it's one that nobody enforces.

[Berried]

You're quite certain it's good monsters you're running into? Not monsters that got caught stealing on the surface and lied about being good and got away with it because their chaotic neutral alignment slipped past the local paladin's "detect evil" radar?

I do agree that there shouldn't be paladins living in Andunor, monstrous or otherwise. I don't think a paladin would be able to stomach the practices there for any length of time.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

I feel like it can be done well; provided the character acknowledges the limitations of the city.

A paladin trying to right all wrongs is going to die an immediately and gruesome death in Andunor. But pushing in little ways, trying to preach the dictates of their God; here and there, to those they've watched and interacted with and are quite sure will listen -

Bringing subtle righteousness to one uncertain soul in a city of horror. Surely that's what being a paladin is about. Even if it's only salving a slave in their hour of need. It's about going into the dark places, where there's things that normal people can't abide, and trying to ensure - Even if in a little way - There's a fleeting flicker of light. They can't change the city. But maybe they can spare one.

Depends on the God, of course. There's plenty who wouldn't care for that sort of subtlety. A crusader-type character pushing against everything is going to have a hard (and very likely fatal) time, and justifiably so.

[Sea Shanties]

Leaving monster paladins out of it, I don’t think “good” monsters are so impossible to play.

Being good doesn’t mean they have to be friends with surfacers. A good human would still see a good goblin as the enemy and kill it immediately. A good monster raised among monsters still sees surfacers as “the other.” Their acts of good are going to start at home and among kin. Maybe they can befriend a surfacer if situation dictates (like guarding a prisoner one on one for a long time) but it doesn't mean they should expect (or want) to be welcome in Bendir.

It also doesn’t mean they have to crusade to free every slave or oppose all evil religions and institutions. Maybe they’re the one quietly offering aid and trying to make slave’s lives better. One good kobold isn’t going to topple the institution of slavery after all, they can just do what they can to help. They are the ones who will "accidentally" fail to restrain a slave so they can escape even though they themselves aren't getting anything out of it.

When you play something that goes against the crowd like a good monster or a surface necromancer you have to bide your time and do little things when leveling up. Eventually you'll have enough power to be a player and then you have to choose to either be covert and work in the background, be strong enough to make a bold move and fight to withstand the heat or be ready to throw the character away after a big story moment where they reveal themselves and bring on more enemies than they can survive.

You don’t see good monsters taking action against slavery on a Tuesday morning in the Hub because that will just get them killed for nothing. I trust that most people playing them know what they are doing and will show their true colors in the time it matters. That’s pretty much what all of us do in this game, train and craft and BS over random stuff until the story happens.

[the grim yeeter]

They shouldn't even be playable.

[chris a gogo]

Good monster is kind of redundant.
If you want to RP a monster then that's what you do, rping a "good aligned" monster is self defeating, it's one of those concepts that people think of and say to themselves oh this will be so cool, when really they could of fitted the character concept into any standard race and had it make sense to the setting.

Neutral monsters sure good ones no.

[Yma23]

Good monster is kind of redundant.
If you want to RP a monster then that's what you do, rping a "good aligned" monster is self defeating, it's one of those concepts that people think of and say to themselves oh this will be so cool, when really they could of fitted the character concept into any standard race and had it make sense to the setting.

Neutral monsters sure good ones no.

Not really. Because background is part of a character concept, and situation is.

IF you're basicaly just wanting to play a monster race but with extra snuggles, then yes. I agree. If you're going in saying (to use the drow example) 'Hi I wanna play a Good Drow so I can hang out with elves and braid each others hair and giggle and snuggle and hold slumber parties...' then yes, you're right, it's silly.

If you're playing for the challenge though... if you're playing for the thrill of having to hide what you are, of doing small acts of good here and there, of knowing that ultimatly your character may end up cast out, killed, imprisoned, tortured... If you're playing for the hard, grinding effort of carefully making surface aliances - never expecting trust, but treasuring it when gained... If you're playing knowing that you may end up an exile on all the isle, never able to enter any settlment, wandering the wilds by dark, hidden, shrouded from all eyes, revealing yourself only with utmost care, and utter most fear...
If you're playing for the tradgedy that knowing ultimatly, your character will die alone, unloved, hated, just for what they are, dispite all the good they've done. If you're playing to be that one, small, secret spark in the dark that few will ever truly see, and fewer still will appreciate.
If you're playing to play Arelith on Super Hard Mode?
Then play a good monster.
It's tough, but very rewarding.