A conundrum of PVP on a RP server

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Okay then. Let me rephrase the conclusion...

A game in which all you do is tune instruments with friends for 4-6 hours that night in the example given for the reason behind the tuning of instruments, is a roleplaying game because you have been tuning the instruments.
Right?
Replace tuning with playing memory if you wish. That was my previous conclusion as well.

If you pretended you were 4 to 6 musicians in your current on going dnd campaign and decided to do so by tuning literally for 4 to 6 hours and all agreed that it was all im game, then yes roleplayed four to six hours tuning your guitar.

The tuning in itself is not the game nor what made it roleplay, it was deciding to make the tuning part of the game. Arelith's terms of roleplay is whatever happens in game as my previously mentioned "acts" regardless of extreme table top examples where you all decide to tune guitars for your whole DnD session.

For all I care you can even change the definition of roleplay from arelith to table top. Arelith is "what you see is what you get". If joe murders bob IG then it happened and is part of the roleplay environment regardless of how you might define roleplay elsewhere.

[monkeywithstick]

A wargame does not occur within the IC sphere. Ergo it is not.

Unless it is done within the IC sphere, in which case it is.

[BoredGM]

All wargames are done within the IC sphere. Ergo they are. Right?

[monkeywithstick]

All wargames are done within the IC sphere. Ergo they are. Right?

No.

[BoredGM]

Why not?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Okay so basically, you all have agreed that if there was a session of 4-5 "memory game combat encounters" or "tuning your instruments combat encounters" that playing only that game would be RP.

I just wanted you to agree with that. I disagree, and I think many other people might see why.

I will connect this back to another great example now, I don't even need to replace the term PvP.

If all PvP is RP, then all wargaming must be considered equal to being a roleplaying game, because that is what happens in a wargame.
Right?

Your wargame analogy is another fallacy of equivocation and, or lack of sqaure/rectangle destiction. And i am sure most people would understand see that. Unless by wargames you mean an awesome week long LARPing war.

[BoredGM]

No it isn't malcolm. They are actions that exist within the world of the wargame. Thus, they are roleplaying by the standard which you have been promoting. That is how I understand it.

Please explain how my examples are incorrect in the future, instead of just trying to inform me of your opinion that it is wrong.
As far as I know, stating that I am wrong does not mean that I am wrong.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

No it isn't malcolm. They are actions that exist within the world of the wargame. Thus, they are roleplaying by the standard which you have been promoting. That is how I understand it.

Is this a role-playing world though?

[BoredGM]

What do you think the difference is? A wargame has a world, and the players take actions within them. That would mean they are roleplaying. If not, then your objection is based on this idea of a "role-playing world" which has not been introduced or defined.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

What do you think the difference is? A wargame has a world, and the players take actions within them. That would mean they are roleplaying. If not, then your objection is based on this idea of a "role-playing world" which has not been introduced or defined.

It was assumed and implied when I have repeatedly referred to Arelith's "roleplay environment". I am starting to suspect pedantry on your end to win an argument about CvC being roleplay or not as you are smart enough to know what I mean.

Clearly actions taken on a NWN action/arena server are not roleplay. Arelith's standard of roleplay is all acts in it's roleplay environnent are to be considered IC/IG. That is what everyone was trying to say when they said PVP = RP. They didn't say pvp in all environments are roleplay, but rather all actions in the arelith roleplay environment should be considered IC/roleplay and not as actions seperate from the roleplay environment.

[Aniel]

Not to dogpile but I was interested in seeing an answer to this rather than it being skipped over, BoredGM. Quoting myself since it's pretty far back at this point.

I don't understand what you mean by PvP isn't RP.

A villain is confronted by the hero. After dialogue and gloating the hero moves to subdue the villain who resists. As such a narrative tool is utilized to resolve this IC conflict: PvP. After a valiant struggle, the villain is subdued and brought to justice and put on trial for their crimes.

Did RP pause for an OOC fight so that the hero could meta capture the villain?

[BoredGM]

Okay, I have been doing this for quite a while and I am simply tired of paying attention to it right now. I think my example with wargaming not being RP even though it involves only PvP is a solid one. I do not think malcolms distinction - which to me appears to be simply naming it a "RP environment" - is not one that is established to be different in any way from my wargaming environment example.
And, I have established that that is exactly what they meant malcolm. Way back when it was agreed that "Hitting someone with a sword" was to be considered roleplay. That is the exact same thing that happens in a wargame or an NWN arena server. Whatever the situation in which that sword strike might occur, the mere act of striking with the sword was roleplay, even if wordlessly in game. And NWN Arena servers or wargames are games.
I do not understand your hesitation to accept that a wargame has a game world where players take actions, the same as an NWN Arena server as you said. I suspect pedantic arguments on YOUR part sir.

I have another one that I wanted to get to after this entire clearing up of the conclusion thing with regards to malcolm and the "if it happens in game, then it is roleplaying" idea.

Let's say that I am a player in a tabletop game or even Arelith. This is how I play my character. I get a table of possible actions that I could do, and assign numbers to each of them. I then use a random number generator to pick the number and therefore the action I take. If the action I take exists in game, is what I am doing roleplaying?

If the reply is yes, again I would simply disagree. I think many would see why. It's been fun! I'm taking a break.

That would mean Aniel that during the PvP, no RP existed, which could be true from my point of view yes. That is my answer to that inquiry.

[monkeywithstick]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

This type of game is well-established, so some RPG-related game forms, such as trading/collectible card games (CCGs) and wargames, may not be included under the definition. Some amount of role-playing activity may be present in such games, but it is not the primary focus.

[Arigard]

Football uses a ball, so I guess any game that uses a ball should be called football from now on? - logic of this discussion.

Roleplay in a DnD setting is you as a player creating, developing and reacting as a character (that is a persona and not you) within an immersive world. Conflict, art and all the things mentioned in this thread are part of that world and exist in that setting. So anything you do & react to as your character in that setting, is Role Play within the confines of the rules of Arelith.

There is no rule in DnD that you cannot run up to a guard and smack him with your sword without saying a word, but there will be consequences to it. The rules exist here to make players experiences fairer & because the same kinds of consequences simply do not exist in a game where death means little.

[JustMonika]

Oh dear.

A 'Roleplaying Game' is a Game where you, a sentient creature, play a role.

The role you are playing, is akin to acting. Everything your 'Character' does, IE, when you are 'Playing the role', the role of an individual whom is not yourself, is roleplaying, and thus 'RP.' Be that 'Tuning a musical instrument, or murdering necromancers.' These are not things that -you- are doing. These are things your character who is doing, who is not you.

A 'Wargame', is a game which simulates a war, or more typically the sort of conflict which takes place within that. When I play Wargames, a frequent hobby of mine, you are not 'Roleplaying', because you are not playing a role, or a specific character, with the possible exception of 'Megagames' which are a niche' hybrid of both schools of thought. I can not roleplay a country, because I lack the landmass and GDP. Rather, like a computer program I am running a simulation of a historical event.

This should now all be clarified and left to rest, now, yes?

[Aniel]

Unfortunately where I'm inclined to disagree is that your point of view isn't relevant. You can say and even believe that no RP happened, but RP did happen.

When you play on NWN/Arelith, you are playing the role of a character. Absolutely everything that character does is an IC decision and action. You are playing the role of the character, you are roleplaying. When you engage in PvP your character is in conflict with another person. Your character is fighting that person with the utilization of a narrative tool. You are playing the role of a character that is partaking in combat.

Roleplay happens.

[Arigard]

Let's say that I am a player in a tabletop game or even Arelith. This is how I play my character. I get a table of possible actions that I could do, and assign numbers to each of them. I then use a random number generator to pick the number and therefore the action I take. If the action I take exists in game, is what I am doing roleplaying?

You've basically just described the confusion table, which there are rules for in DnD. If you were doing so on a normal character it made sense on, it's still role-playing, especially if you were choosing to play a chaotic/out of his mind character, but to do so on a lawful, ordered character wouldn't make much sense. Just like it doesn't make sense for Druids to be super friendly with Undead. Lore dictates that they are diametrically opposed to them, so you need to take that into consideration. You're choosing to play in a setting with predefined lore/history and you can't just ignore it because you don't like it.

It also doesn't mean if you have "attack someone right away!" written down on the list though, that you could justify it, because we still all play within the confines of the rules that we sign up to.

The fact is, you can play your characters however you want if you think it is a way to accurately reflect the persona you have built within the rules of the server and the lore of the world, because there will always be elements of characters we as people simply cannot 'fake' sometimes, so systems are built to help out.

Take a character with multiple personalities, for example. You might have a table on which those personalities are listed and regularly 'roll' to see which one occurs at a given moment. Dice rolls are a fundamental part of the DnD system. They create a fair structure so that people can't just go "But my character would have seen/understood/known that because I as a player do", when ultimately, your character doesn't and that can also be extended to other areas to help you as a player deal with something outside of your normal understanding.

And just to add to this, if you as a player don't particularly like certain types of RP (I.e conflict etc), then you are free to play a character that minimizes your exposure to it. If you want to prioritize playing music and writing poems & avoiding any kind of conflict RP at all, then make a character that gives you the freedom to do that. Ultimately though, everyone makes a choice when they create a character, so if your choice is "I'm going to make a loud mouth joker that pokes fun/insults everyone" go ahead and do so, but don't complain on an OOC level when your actions lead to hostile consequences & say it's not RP for you to be treated in a hostile way, because no-one forced you to make that character and develop their role play in that way, except you. To try and convince everyone to change for you and dictate what their character should be doing and how they should be reacting to you is not how RP works & it's incredibly self centered and selfish.

In every situation you make a choice as a player and that includes deciding on the kind of RP you want to build.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Okay, I have been doing this for quite a while and I am simply tired of paying attention to it right now. I think my example with wargaming not being RP even though it involves only PvP is a solid one. I do not think malcolms distinction - which to me appears to be simply naming it a "RP environment" - is not one that is established to be different in any way from my wargaming environment example.
And, I have established that that is exactly what they meant malcolm. Way back when it was agreed that "Hitting someone with a sword" was to be considered roleplay. That is the exact same thing that happens in a wargame or an NWN arena server. Whatever the situation in which that sword strike might occur, the mere act of striking with the sword was roleplay, even if wordlessly in game. And NWN Arena servers or wargames are games.
I do not understand your hesitation to accept that a wargame has a game world where players take actions, the same as an NWN Arena server as you said. I suspect pedantic arguments on YOUR part sir.

I have another one that I wanted to get to after this entire clearing up of the conclusion thing with regards to malcolm and the "if it happens in game, then it is roleplaying" idea.

Let's say that I am a player in a tabletop game or even Arelith. This is how I play my character. I get a table of possible actions that I could do, and assign numbers to each of them. I then use a random number generator to pick the number and therefore the action I take. If the action I take exists in game, is what I am doing roleplaying?

If the reply is yes, again I would simply disagree. I think many would see why. It's been fun! I'm taking a break.

That would mean Aniel that during the PvP, no RP existed, which could be true from my point of view yes. That is my answer to that inquiry.

We can agree to disagree, I am just clarifying Arelith's RP environment as that seemed to be the source of the confusion.

When i attack my ally at a table top environment to my own detriment because it's what I believe what my character to do, then i consider it roleplay regardless if my character said anything.

Role-playing depends on being a roleplay environment and not if its a game. Theatre productions are not games but actors are indeed "acting" when they swing the sword.

It seemd you associate a particular action in all games environments to be same, but for me, the context of gaming or not has no say if I am roleplaying. You talk when you roleplay in a RP environment, does that mean talkimg in a war game is always roleplay?

The context of a acting in a RP/acting environment is the only context I am aware of that one can properly define what is roleplay (playing the role of something), if you have a better way of identifying/classifying roleplay, I am all ears, but I am skeptic.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'm afraid I skipped the last couple of pages out of sheer exhausion.

As a general rule (there may some small exceptions but they're very few) Anything you do in game, is In Character. It's What You See is What You Get.

Standing around silently staring at nothing? That is In Character. Playing a memory game? Thbat should be In Character. Running up to pvp someone? To be treated In Character. If your little 'toon' does it In Game? Then they are doing it In Character, like it or not.

And because it's In Charcter it should be given roleplay, be treated as roleplay. If it is not In Character, if it is based purely out of OOC motivation - then in most cases it should be reported to the DMS.

Asking if certain actions are considered roleplay in other settings (Wargaming, Larp, ECt) is interesting, but not at all useful to the question at hand, it's not about Arelith and so doesn't really have a place on this thread. Which is now going to be locked.