A conundrum of PVP on a RP server

[BoredGM]

So by extension, if the same thing happened at a tabletop game where not many words were spoken, and all you did that session was encounter those creatures, then all you would do is tune instruments with a group of friends.
Thus, because you can go to a game where the only thing that happens is tuning instruments in a group, then tuning instruments must be a roleplaying game.

To malcolm, I want to be crystal clear again. Are you saying that in your point of view, a player's thoughts has no bearing on whether or not they roleplay?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Okay, so instead of PvP = RP, I will begin to say also that tuning an instrument = RP in the context of the game. So let's do another example with that.
Let's say instead of fighting with combat to complete our writs in game, all of our writs involve only creatures on the path that when encountered make our real life instruments go out of tune. Then to pass them, we need to tune the instrument. That is also roleplaying. Thus, tuning an instrument is roleplaying in that example right?

They have chosen to go to a place IC and do a thing IC. I really don't think I can clarify this anymore than I already have...

He has made a distinction between actions and decisions. Just clarify you meant all acts. He thins you are saying that if your characters stands there doing nothing but is internally making decisions, then that qualifies as IG decision. But it's not actaully roleplay, hence his conundrum over your words.

[monkeywithstick]

So by extension, if the same thing happened at a tabletop game where not many words were spoken, and all you did that session was encounter those creatures, then all you would do is tune instruments with a group of friends.
Thus, because you can go to a game where the only thing that happens is tuning instruments in a group, then tuning instruments must be a roleplaying game.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

He has made a distinction between actions and decisions. Just clarify you meant all acts. He thins you are saying that if your characters stands there doing nothing but is internally making decisions, then that qualifies as IG decision. But it's not actaully roleplay, hence his conundrum over your words.

No, we covered that already. And actually I stand by inaction being a roleplayed character choice, in NWN terms it is unlikely to be high quality roleplay, but the idea that it isn't at all, really falls apart outside this very specific part of the RP sphere.

[BoredGM]

Monkey, please explain what you meant by "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc?"
I do not believe that my conclusion was based on faulty argumentation, as presented in the previous posts.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

So by extension, if the same thing happened at a tabletop game where not many words were spoken, and all you did that session was encounter those creatures, then all you would do is tune instruments with a group of friends.
Thus, because you can go to a game where the only thing that happens is tuning instruments in a group, then tuning instruments must be a roleplaying game.

To malcolm, I want to be crystal clear again. Are you saying that in your point of view, a player's thoughts has no bearing on whether or not they roleplay?

In regards to his instrument example, just because all sqaures are rectangles does not mean all rectangles are squares. Tuning an instrument IG is roleplay but tuning in itself is not always roleplay. Just like talking in itself is not a role-playing game.

I never made any statement about player thoughts having no relation with roleplay. I state only that roleplay exist merely by it physicaly existing in game via an action, word, thing or condition/description or some other example i hsve missed that should be obvious

[monkeywithstick]

Monkey, please explain what you meant by "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc?"
I do not believe that my conclusion was based on faulty argumentation.

It's not quite the correct logical fallacy however I posit: A car is red, ergo all cars are red.

[BoredGM]

Why do you believe that fallacy applies?

Okay malcolm, but I want to address monkey's first for a bit.

[monkeywithstick]

Because a thing happened in an RP game does not make that thing happening always be an RP game.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

So by extension, if the same thing happened at a tabletop game where not many words were spoken, and all you did that session was encounter those creatures, then all you would do is tune instruments with a group of friends.
Thus, because you can go to a game where the only thing that happens is tuning instruments in a group, then tuning instruments must be a roleplaying game.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

He has made a distinction between actions and decisions. Just clarify you meant all acts. He thins you are saying that if your characters stands there doing nothing but is internally making decisions, then that qualifies as IG decision. But it's not actaully roleplay, hence his conundrum over your words.

No, we covered that already. And actually I stand by inaction being a roleplayed character choice, in NWN terms it is unlikely to be high quality roleplay, but the idea that it isn't at all, really falls apart outside this very specific part of the RP sphere.

But a "guy just standing there and doing nothing" is what is literally happening, the act of just standing there. His unknown thoughts remain unobservable, while his standing there is. Inaction is still an "act" in acting.

[monkeywithstick]

But a "guy just standing there and doing nothing" is what is literally happening, the act of just standing there. His unknown thoughts remain unobservable, while his standing there is. Inaction is still an "act" in acting.

Exactly.

[BoredGM]

But both examples I provided were in game right? One in a tabletop game, and the other in NWN? Which means that they both apply to your agreement about tuning instruments by encountering enemies being roleplaying.

[monkeywithstick]

But both examples I provided were in game right? One in a tabletop game, and the other in NWN? Which means that they both apply to your agreement about tuning instruments by encountering enemies being roleplaying.

So by extension, if the same thing happened at a tabletop game where not many words were spoken, and all you did that session was encounter those creatures, then all you would do is tune instruments with a group of friends.
Thus, because you can go to a game where the only thing that happens is tuning instruments in a group, then tuning instruments must be a roleplaying game.

Emphasis mine

[BoredGM]

I can't see what you did forgive me my limited human eyes hehe.

[BoredGM]

It's not hard to see I thought. You agreed that going on such an adventure of tuning instruments - in the place of PvP or PvE - would be roleplaying. Thus I simply transferred it to a tabletop atmosphere, and asked you if you still agree that doing nothing but sitting at a table tuning instruments with friends - be it for a game - is roleplaying.
You had already previously agreed basically...

[monkeywithstick]

It certainly can yes. In fact, I take it as the mark of an exceptionally talented PnP GM if they can make a fulfilling and interesting session without resorting to the narrative crutch that is combat. (To be clear, I am not at all opposed to Combat, but in a PnP gamescraft sense, it's a really easy way to buy the GM thinking room and add tension because all the dicerolling takes time, and the stakes are inherently obvious, this is far less applicable to NWN or LRP where realtime resolution is inherent)

However, just because a car is red, does not make all cars red.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It's not hard to see I thought. You agreed that going on such an adventure of tuning instruments - in the place of PvP or PvE - would be roleplaying. Thus I simply transferred it to a tabletop atmosphere, and asked you if you still agree that doing nothing but sitting at a table tuning instruments with friends - be it for a game - is roleplaying.
You had already previously agreed basically...

We never disagreed that tuning an instrument in an table top atmosphere could be role-playing, we disagreed tuning in itself is a role-playing game. Just like talking in itself is not a role-playing game.

[BoredGM]

Okay then. Let me rephrase the conclusion...

A game in which all you do is tune instruments with friends for 4-6 hours that night in the example given for the reason behind the tuning of instruments, is a roleplaying game because you have been tuning the instruments.
Right?
Replace tuning with playing memory if you wish. That was my previous conclusion as well.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

In a table top session not all words are in game character, just like the tuning could be either.

If you emote in game *tunes his instrument* then it is in game and thus part of the roleplay environment. What your table decides to include in game is up to your table.

[BoredGM]

So what if they HAD intended all of their tuning to be in game character? Would that mean that the tuning was the roleplaying in the roleplaying game that you are playing?

Rememeber it's a different conclusion. I don't care about all tuning being a roleplaying game now.

[Arigard]

It's pretty simple. What your character knows and experiences IG is RP, whether it's PvP, a card game, a poem etc. The rules are there to arbitrate this and makes sure there is a level of quality to all IG experience.

Whether you personally as a player dislike PvP or not is irrelevant, it's part of the IG experience and it's a valid expression of a characters actions.

RP is not the same as being a good storyteller. Elements overlap, but they are two distinct things. You can be great at creating narrative and stories, but also be a bad RPer (dislike change/reacting and get bent out of shape when things don't go the way you planned them in your head) & likewise you can be great at becoming a 'character' without being necessarily great at pushing for some huge overarching narrative in the process. Not every character needs, or should be some Machiavellian super villain. There is always room for the characters that simply want to be tradesmen, or adventurers, or bodyguards, or humble bards, without the constant pressure of "But you have to move worlds or you're a bad RPer".

If you can create multiple identities that are all different, stick to them and portray them accurately IG, then you are a good RPer. Think of it like a method actor. Some of those personas might be more prone to violence, others might entirely fear it, but when you say to people "Oh PvP isn't RP" you're forcing your world view on someone else because you as a player simply don't like it (And then the question becomes why don't you like it? Is it because you are pushing for the narrative, or simply because you don't like looking bad/being in a situation you can't control). This in turn limits how others feel they can be true to their characters. I've met plenty of people over the years who are amazing storytellers, writers and generators, who when they are suddenly approached with a situation they didn't plan for, or authorize in their head for their character suddenly start complaining that it's unfair.

But being a good RPer is not just about the 'story', it's also about being able to adapt in the moment and understanding that your character is not you. If bad things happen, if things don't go your way, that should also be fun for you, because playing a character isn't about 'winning', or 'losing', it's about being immersed into a setting as a persona you pick.

[monkeywithstick]

Okay then. Let me rephrase the conclusion...

A game in which all you do is tuning instruments with friends for 4-6 hours that night in the example given for the reason behind the tuning of instruments, is a roleplaying game because you have been tuning the instruments.
Right?

My partner and all the bards attended a weekend long IC barding competition a few weeks back, where the only planned happenings were music and people talking around music.

Pretty much anything done within an IC context is RP, this doesn't make it inherently fun. I posit most people would not want to spend an evening RPing tuning their instuments.
However, just because I do not find the bard competition fun and elected to not attend, does not make it not RP, or invalid in any way. Likewise if someone wishes to sit and RP tuning their instrument with their friends, that's pretty much their choice; if it happens in the IC sphere; it's roleplay. Whether it is interesting/fun roleplay is a judgment I leave to those involved.

[BoredGM]

Okay Arigard, but I wanted to finish the memory game and tuning instrument conclusion discussion.

[BoredGM]

Okay so basically, you all have agreed that if there was a session of 4-5 "memory game combat encounters" or "tuning your instruments combat encounters" that playing only that game would be RP.

I just wanted you to agree with that. I disagree, and I think many other people might see why.

I will connect this back to another great example now, I don't even need to replace the term PvP.

If all PvP is RP, then all wargaming must be considered equal to being a roleplaying game, because that is what happens in a wargame.
Right?

[monkeywithstick]

All cars are not red.

[BoredGM]

My example is perfect. As far as I know all wargaming involves PvP. If PvP is RP, then all wargaming is RP. Period. Please explain your objection.