A conundrum of PVP on a RP server

[BoredGM]

Okay. Let's assume my interpretation of Aelryn's post was correct so I can post this example. This example actually covers both your post and Aelryn's I think.

In my party I hosted before I departed Skaljard, we engaged in some of the activities I had planned IC. IC, we played a game of memory with writing paper cards I had made.

Is that roleplaying because during the game of memory I was making IC decisions as to which cards to pick up? For people who might agree with Aelryn, is that roleplaying because after I pick up the cards, there is a sequence of events that could be recorded and read?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Okay. Let's assume my interpretation of Aelryn's post was correct so I can post this example. This example actually covers both your post and Aelryn's I think.

In my party I hosted before I departed Skaljard, we engaged in some of the activities I had planned IC. IC, we played a game of memory with writing paper cards I had made.

Is that roleplaying because during the game of memory I was making IC decisions as to which cards to pick up? For people who might agree with Aelryn, is that roleplaying because after I pick up the cards, there is a sequence of events that could be recorded and read?

Yes- and it's also RP if one of the players stands up, calls you a dirty cheater, and proceeds to stab you to death for it - Edit2: whether you actually cheated or not. (Edit: Mind, the rules require them to hostile you first.)

[BoredGM]

Yes- and it's also RP if one of the players stands up, calls you a dirty cheater, and proceeds to stab you to death for it. (Edit: Mind, the rules require them to hostile you first.)

So we can conclude that memory is a roleplaying game?

[monkeywithstick]

Yes- and it's also RP if one of the players stands up, calls you a dirty cheater, and proceeds to stab you to death for it. (Edit: Mind, the rules require them to hostile you first.)

So we can conclude that memory is a roleplaying game?

Only if we are trolling

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Yes- and it's also RP if one of the players stands up, calls you a dirty cheater, and proceeds to stab you to death for it. (Edit: Mind, the rules require them to hostile you first.)

So we can conclude that memory is a roleplaying game?

I tried- I really did- but I can't follow your train of logic. You need your answers from someone else more patient than I, if you don't understand that Memory is not an RPG, but that playing memory as a decision IC is in fact role-playing if it's something your character would be entertained by.

I wish you the best of luck!

[BoredGM]

Well if you deem to ever reply again Aelryn...

What is the exact difference between playing memory out of game and playing memory in game? Where do you think the fault with my jump from your previous agreement to the conclusion was?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Well if you deem to ever reply again Aelryn...

What is the exact difference between playing memory out of game and playing memory in game? Where do you think the fault with my jump from your previous agreement to the conclusion was?

I went back few pages to try getting some context, your last question still a bit "out of nowhere" for me.

I can argue for eternity without ever throwing shade your way, so maybe I can help.

So clarify for me, how is a scene of playing memory cards in game, playing a memory out of game; or perhaps you should better clarify what you mean by "playing memory out of game."

The scene of cards on a boat perhaps was not described properly as it sounded like a scene played out in game.

[BoredGM]

Because you are pointing at the card you want to pick up, finding out what is under it, and doing so with the intention of gathering pairs of cards. I would assert that is the same thing in game and out of game.

Darn the board attachment quota has been reached? Can't figure out how to post pictures.

[Aniel]

This thread reads like a clown fiesta.

All I can do is echo what other people have said: PvP is RP. RP can be PvP.

You might run into people that are malicious about it or pridegraming, just report them and move on. Though I'd really advise trying to interact more with these people. Repercussions for someone being a criminal or what have you are what you make them. Report it to the local guards if appropriate, pursue that avenue of IC retaliation.

It's a little trickier if you have those pesky Andunorians being troublesome since they're much further away but you still have options for retaliation. Gather up adventurers and go on some Underdark patrols to heckle with them. Slap down some signs as territory markers, maybe spread some messages.

A good trick for avoiding the majority of Andunorians is to not travel at night. A good portion of them are light sensitive. The dark is dangerous and you're willingly subjecting yourself and character to the risks when you choose to travel in it.

PvP isn't a bad thing. PvP is RP. PvP is a narrative tool and as with any narrative tool, it's what you make out of it.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Because you are pointing at the card you want to pick up, finding out what is under it, and doing so with the intention of gathering pairs of cards. I would assert that is the same thing in game and out of game.

Darn the board attachment quota has been reached? Can't figure out how to post pictures.

I am sorry, but I still have no clue what you are talking about.

Are you saying playing cards in game is the same as playing cards in real life?

[BoredGM]

I am sorry, but I still have no clue what you are talking about.

Are you saying playing cards in game is the same as playing cards in real life?

For the purposes of playing memory yes. I made cards with writing paper. The writing paper in game. I dropped them in a floor in a rectangle in game. We picked up the writing paper cards and read them to each other.
So we were playing memory.

[BoredGM]

This thread reads like a clown fiesta.

If it reads like a clown fiesta, then is that because we reached a conclusion from the results of the arguments that you find you disagree with in some way? That is all that has happened.

Sorry, but I disagree. Feel free to do whatever you please, by all means. But I don't agree that PvP is RP.

[BoredGM]

Lol! Everybody I am really sorry, I totally meant to indent and was using spaces a bunch that didn't show up. Sorry for any reading discomfort!
I think I see the indent now.

[monkeywithstick]

I attend LRP with a number of very talented people. Including several who chose to play bards.

Barding in a LRP sense, involves turning up and playing an instrument or singing in character.
These people are all skilled musicians in an OOC sense.
They all have OOC bands and musical projects.

The playing of music in the in character space is roleplaying, because it occurs in the in character space.

Even though music itself is not inherently roleplay. And even though, these people also RP without their music.

The "best" bard RP tends to be from the ones who write setting bespoke songs and have a LRP specific setlist. As opposed to the ones who drunkenly bawl bohemian rhapsody. But then we have a quality argument once more, not an absence/presence.

If you are doing a thing, in the IC space it is RP. Be that memory cards (I also know people at LRP who have made their own card decks and games), playing dice, music, murder.

There are provisions within that for rules breaks (i.e interactive RP before PvP in Arelith, no sexy elven fun times) and also in LRP for legal/practical concerns. So something can ALSO in both contexts, be both RP and against the game rules.

I will note that your question, as to "what is RP?" is not especially helpful to your stated goal "I want to improve my RP" within the context of this. If you do all the things we are saying are RP, that does not mean that your RP will improve, in fact the opposite may occur.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I am sorry, but I still have no clue what you are talking about.

Are you saying playing cards in game is the same as playing cards in real life?

For the purposes of playing memory yes.

I am not sure what that has to do with interactive RP. Perhaps you could clarify. Like how real life walking change the scene of real life walking in game?

The scene you described earlier about playing cards memory cards in game is only roleplay for the parts you put IG on screen. The "what you see what you get" actions you emoted involving cards. The thoughts/memories behind what cards you choose that do not make it to the "what you see is what you get" via dialogue/emotes are not interactive roleplay. Only what i can actaully observe as an outside party or godseeing DM.

Playing scene of cards that involves memory /= memory; and even if it did, I am confused how it is relevant at this time and literally guessing what you are trying to get at. Hopefully I guessed right or you can clarify.

Your early examples about paladins wordlessly cutting down necromancers, just so we are clear:

Is not much higher quality RP than unknown level 30 attacking unknown level 10. Both situations require interactive roleplay before PvP.

To be further clear, PvP requiring interactive roleplay before PvP commences does not determine if the PvP is roleplay or not. Anything that happens in game (all PvP is in game) is roleplay, though not all roleplay is equal/encouraged/allowed.

[BoredGM]

Barding in a LRP sense, involves turning up and playing an instrument or singing in character.
...

The playing of music in the in character space is roleplaying, because it occurs in the in character space.

Even though music itself is not inherently roleplay. And even though, these people also RP without their music.

...

Nice! That sounds great! I've also played instruments as a child. I know that perhaps someone might tune one with other instruments, or tune an out of tune piano.
Are you saying that tuning an instrument - wordlessly - in a LRP setting as a bard is roleplaying? I don't believe it is.

[monkeywithstick]

Barding in a LRP sense, involves turning up and playing an instrument or singing in character.
...

The playing of music in the in character space is roleplaying, because it occurs in the in character space.

Even though music itself is not inherently roleplay. And even though, these people also RP without their music.

...

Nice! That sounds great! I've also played instruments as a child. I know that perhaps someone might tune one with other instruments, or tune an out of tune piano.
Are you saying that tuning an instrument - wordlessly - in a LRP setting as a bard is roleplaying? I don't believe it is.

A man, sits on an in character wooden chair, with an instrument (perhaps, though not necesarrily one he made himself to fit the setting brief). He tunes it. People walk past and see he is tuning his instrument. They react. they look forward to his playing of the instrument, they avoid the area because they hate music, they think "oh, music will drown out the sound of the murder I planned later, I shall delay until the music occurs".
He either reacts to their passing, or is deep in concentration and does not, which is also a reaction, perhaps one someone could take advantage of.

So yes, it is. And it is clearer for the fact that there is no bubbletext. Observe a person in real life for a minute or two (with permission: do not do a creepstare at a passing stranger ), even if they say or do nothing you can put a finger on, their body language will carry some meaning, even their ignoring of you likewise.

[BoredGM]

To malcolm...the others were explaining that PvP = RP because it is interactive storytelling, such as the story of playing a game of memory in game as the example I've provided. Another was explaining that PvP = RP because it is in game decisions, such as the in game decisions of picking which cards to play during memory. That was all to show me how the RP happened in my provided example between a level 30 and a level 10. Because I don't think it did.

I have understood your response to mean that whatever happens in game on the screen without regards to what your thoughts are is roleplaying, and that is why PvP is roleplaying. Is that something you would agree with?

To monkey.
I don't mind everything else you said. Pretend the player ONLY tunes the instrument. Specifically the exact words "He tunes it."
Do you think that is roleplaying because it is a decision in game?
I want you to be crystal clear on that.

[monkeywithstick]

To monkey.
I don't mind everything else you said. Pretend the player ONLY tunes the instrument. Specifically the exact words "He tunes it."
Do you think that is roleplaying because it is a decision in game?
I want you to be crystal clear on that.

The situation you allude to is simply not possible. Go and sit on a chair and tune your instrument, you will either react to or ignore your surroundings, either of which is in the context of your question, an RP action, irrespective of whether choosing to tune your instrument in that spot or a different one is (which it also is).

[BoredGM]

I believe it might be possible. 2 people enter into a building from which they cannot be heard saying "We are going to tune our instruments. Be right back."
They go in, tune their instruments wordlessly, and come back out. Is that roleplaying in your point of view? Or is there another problem with the example provided?

[monkeywithstick]

I believe it might be possible. 2 people enter into a building from which they cannot be heard saying "We are going to tune our instruments. Be right back."
They go in, tune their instruments wordlessly, and come back out. Is that roleplaying in your point of view? Or is there another problem with the example provided?

They agreed to do so. One of them might decide not to. Also, tbh LRP wise if anyone enters a building with me from which we cannot be heard, either my character has a deathwish or the other does.

[BoredGM]

They agreed to do so. One of them might decide not to. Also, tbh LRP wise if anyone enters a building with me from which we cannot be heard, either my character has a deathwish or the other does.

Okay, so instead of PvP = RP, I will begin to say also that tuning an instrument = RP in the context of the game. So let's do another example with that.
Let's say instead of fighting with combat to complete our writs in game, all of our writs involve only creatures on the path that when encountered make our real life instruments go out of tune. Then to pass them, we need to tune the instrument. That is also roleplaying. Thus, tuning an instrument is roleplaying in that example right?

[monkeywithstick]

Okay, so instead of PvP = RP, I will begin to say also that tuning an instrument = RP in the context of the game. So let's do another example with that.
Let's say instead of fighting with combat to complete our writs in game, all of our writs involve only creatures on the path that when encountered make our real life instruments go out of tune. Then to pass them, we need to tune the instrument. That is also roleplaying. Thus, tuning an instrument is roleplaying in that example right?

They have chosen to go to a place IC and do a thing IC. I really don't think I can clarify this anymore than I already have...

[Aniel]

This thread reads like a clown fiesta.

If it reads like a clown fiesta, then is that because we reached a conclusion from the results of the arguments that you find you disagree with in some way? That is all that has happened.

Sorry, but I disagree. Feel free to do whatever you please, by all means. But I don't agree that PvP is RP.

It reads like a clown fiesta because it was dissolving into what looked like a lot of petty arguing.

I don't understand what you mean by PvP isn't RP.

A villain is confronted by the hero. After dialogue and gloating the hero moves to subdue the villain who resists. As such a narrative tool is utilized to resolve this IC conflict: PvP. After a valiant struggle, the villain is subdued and brought to justice and put on trial for their crimes.

Did RP pause for an OOC fight so that the hero could meta capture the villain?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

To malcolm...the others were explaining that PvP = RP because it is interactive storytelling, such as the story of playing a game of memory in game as the example I've provided. Another was explaining that PvP = RP because it is in game decisions, such as the in game decisions of picking which cards to play during memory. That was all to show me how the RP happened in my provided example between a level 30 and a level 10. Because I don't think it did.

I have understood your response to mean that whatever happens in game on the screen without regards to what your thoughts are is roleplaying, and that is why PvP is roleplaying. Is that something you would agree with?

To monkey.
I don't mind everything else you said. Pretend the player ONLY tunes the instrument. Specifically the exact words "He tunes it."
Do you think that is roleplaying because it is a decision in game?
I want you to be crystal clear on that.

i feel the monologues of others about how you can make RP out of anything may muddied the waters a bit and I feel you could see past the semantic difference of "decision" and "action". Search your heart young padawan, you have the power to defeat this pedantry.

Seriously though, when people say decisions in game, they mean actions. All visible acts/things, be it words, emotes, lying down on the ground, badly injured, character attacking another character, etc. are fully in game and part of the roleplay environment.

Acting = roleplay and and an actor needs to act on their decision in a way that is tangible for their viewers for it to be acting (that is why monologuing is a thing in theatre), the interactive part refers to other actors being present. Except we stick to terms such as roleplay and character because this is DnD, not theatre.

Traditionally speaking arelith has never allowed PvP, we allow CvC which is character vs character. We such a high standard about nothing in game being OOC that we have rules against OOC ((chat)) that is not used via tells and do not allow party chat.