How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Aradin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:11 am

I almost posted this as a response to Grench02's thread on PVP & RP, but it felt more tangential than relevant. So here as its own separate thing...

Recently (past year or two IG) there's been a rash of attacks from Underdarkers on the surface looking to enslave people. And often I've heard the villainous players are some of the best RPers around: fun villains, great at engaging with all kinds of people, don't force PVP or hard slavery, etc. I've also known them to get killed...multiple times. But they keep coming back.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike villains. Conflict is a great part of any story. But I'm having a bit of a problem in terms of trying to balance IC with OOC. Because Arelith doesn't enforce a hard death penalty (something I agree with), it relies on players choosing when their characters are truly 'dead'. But that means so long as a villainous player wants their villain to remain around, they'll remain around no matter how many times they die. So long as you have a half-decent reason for why your deity raised you from the dead, you're effectively invincible.

It puts me in this weird mixed headspace of "If it's good RP, it should be encouraged" and "Your character's goal is to harass other characters and even killing you doesn't stop you from doing it". If literally destroying a villain isn't enough to stop them, what is?

And then that brings up the other point of "Are villains actually supposed to be stopped?" If you make a villain PC then why should I, the hero, get to be resurrected infinite times while you only get one life? Or is the lot of Arelith villains to always, eventually, lose (or fade away into obscurity)? I'm not sure that feels right either.

So I'm looking for a little feedback. Am I reading this all wrong? I've only played Arelith for the last year or so; maybe some veterans can fill me in. If I got any info wrong please correct me, I'd like to learn the swing of things. Thanks!

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


User avatar
GwaiLo
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:51 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by GwaiLo » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:32 am

Well I have killed Paush a handful of times, but that sneaky demon keeps coming back to life!

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Dr. B » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:43 am

This isn't really a problem with villains, per se. Your question boils down to "How do I stop another character from existing?" You can't, because that's the way the server is designed. The best you can do is find some other way to interfere with their goals.

Exordius
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:42 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Exordius » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:11 am

There is a way to kill them through rp after defeating them if they agree to it but the method needed to do it is considered IG to be one of the most evil things you can do for some odd reason.

User avatar
Diegovog
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:23 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Diegovog » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:31 am

I understand the frustration of not being able to resolve properly a conflict. But this stale feeling can be as harmful in pvp as it is in world storytelling.
Objectively speaking, you have the right of existence of your character unless you have violated the rules and done some pretty bad things. So that means you can choose to bring your character back to life after dieing in pvp as well as choosing to be a young-adult human even after 50 years of IG continuity.
I believe the answer to both, when abused, is stepping back and allowing things to change. Most people don't want the Hub in war for 2 months straight with large party-pvp. Nor characters holding non-voting areas of interest/power for 2 straight RL years.

Change is good. Villains who fail to understand that become a persona non grata and characters who don't develop become boring.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:09 am

I understand the dilemma, and how it feels like there's very little resolution - it's something I've examined myself a few times over the years getting to where I'm at now, and it required a slight paradigm shift.

Remember, this is a fantasy/magic world where devils and demons are real, souls can be bartered, and even returned to life. So if I follow that train of thought, I'm looking less at a Walking Dead/Game of Thrones world where main characters die all the time and stay dead, and more a Power Rangers/Sonic the Hedgehog world, where even if you blow the villain up in a skyscraper tall mechanical explosion, you can be sure they'll be back next week with a new villainous scheme, and perhaps even some of their favorite/strongest underlings which have been healed since then as well (Good help is SO hard to come by when you're Evil, after all.)

Rather than focusing on the real life survival instinct premise of extinguishing the character to end their threat, find a way to ruin their goal. Remember, you're not trying to ruin the player's life, but if their villainous goal flies in the face of your character's beliefs, you should certainly be trying to ruin their character's plan. If you're not, there's not much challenge or entertainment in their villainy, either.

I feel like I've been saying this a lot lately, but this can really be resolved by picking IC stances and goals and sticking to them - while remembering that in the world your character lives in, expecting someone to stay dead because you kill them is a relative thing- and then acting accordingly. It's good to want to be nice to your fellow players, but as long as you're coming from a mentality like that, the nicest thing you can do for everyone's benefit is to act IC on-screen and offer some kind of mutual narrative arrangement to the other player in a tell. IMO, holding your character back from their instincts is detrimental to the narrative unless they have a reason to do so, which you might be able to work out in that tell.

Edit: And if they're playing with no-tells on, that, to me, suggests that they want and will appreciate a fully IC-immersed response.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Nitro » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:45 am

You can't ever win in Arelith. You can have victories, but you can't win like you might in a single player RPG. There is nothing you can do to dictate what others do, except interact with them. If your goal is to stop surface raids for example, you might approach it via diplomacy and bribery, or violence with the goal of making raids too costly to enact. But in each of these cases you must be prepared for failure, because anything that involves another player can't be concluded to the satisfaction of only one of those players.

And of course, if someone is actually harassing you by PvP'ing as often as the rules allow, with minimal RP etc, toss a line to the DM's.

User avatar
ReverentBlade
Posts: 577
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by ReverentBlade » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:11 am

Just stop interacting after the villain becomes stale and hope they take the hint. Things only have to affect your character as much as you want them to.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:04 am

Ultimatly you have little to no controle over another pc, or indeed another players actions.

You do however have significant controle over your own actions.

Don't worry too much about forcing another pcs narrative to fit your own. If it happens? Great- that's someone you probably want to rp with more. IF it doesn't? Let it go.

Tell a good story for yourself. Work with people who are willing to run with that story. Run with other peoples stories if you can! Take chances! Be chill. There's some good advice here, and above.

My two cents?

1) If your a bad guy (and to an extent if your a good guy too, but I think this effects typically evil characters more) - Seriously? Loose occasionaly. I'm not saying -delete, but maybe after a PvP death take a break, play another character, hold off on the raids. RP recovering from the wounds of battle. RP the fact someone won in a way that they may know about. People will really appreciate it because it'll feel a little less like slamming ones head against a brick wall.

2) If you're the good (and to an extent if you're a bad guy) guy? Try to show your foe IC respect. Part of the reason I think that evil characters don't often like to loose, is often (not always) for their rp to work, they want to be feared, or (as I said) at least respected. Loosing looses respect. So if a bad guy does loose, then he's taking quite a blow.
If that's compounded by things like, 'Stupid drow, so weak we killed him easy!' you're encouraging that pc not to accept the loss, but to push harder for a win, which is just shooting yourself in the foot.
If however you say something like: 'That Drow was a dire foe, and a respectful one, but, this day, we've won.'
Then you're still showing your enemy fear, respect, and you're encouraging him that he -can- loose and still be the Dire Foe you want to contend with.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

BoredGM

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by BoredGM » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:06 pm

Work within the game. This is what PvP on this scale might mean. If the villains can come back within certain time, you just have to be able to continue fighting that as well, within that framework. Maintain the guard, advance controllable territroy, etc.
And there might actually be "winning" or victories in this style I suppose. If one side wins enough and controls 98% of the territory in the sphere of awareness for say a few days, victory for a while. There might be rules in this system, such as acceptable level ranges for conflicts, as opposed to a level 20 fighting a level 5.
The game actually could be redesigned to make death a bit more consequential in the case of PvP play. *Random example for change* Say, each day or so is the only time people may be able to do things, and if one side wins that day then they win for that day. No more after that. So I guess only one life per day?
But yeah, in this world even death does not stop your foes. What do you do?
I would think this would be the obvious way of dealing with it IC.

Now, another question might be is that what is desired?

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Aradin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:20 pm

All great advice, thank you. This is helping me understand the social dynamic of Arelith a bit better. I welcome any other words of wisdom!

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


PEST CONTROL
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:35 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by PEST CONTROL » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:11 pm

Haven't posted much since returning, but this thread got my interest.

PC's do die. It takes time but sooner or later they die or leave. So, IMO it is up to you to use that time to make a great story out of whatever other PC's are "giving" you. The Other PC might be a horrible RP'er who just wants to PvP, but that doesn't matter because you can make great storylines for yourself and others using those interactions as fodder. The sign of a great RP'er is they are not limited to what other players do. They can morph and adjust their story depending on situation and make it enjoyable for everyone involved. Win or loss does not fit here.

Characters get famous and are well known if they are great RP'ers. Work against them or with them, but enjoy the time you have with them before they are gone.

BoredGM

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by BoredGM » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:44 pm

PEST CONTROL wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:11 pm
...The Other PC might be a horrible RP'er who just wants to PvP, but that doesn't matter because you can make great storylines for yourself and others using those interactions as fodder. The sign of a great RP'er is they are not limited to what other players do. They can morph and adjust their story depending on situation and make it enjoyable for everyone involved. Win or loss does not fit here.

Characters get famous and are well known if they are great RP'ers. Work against them or with them, but enjoy the time you have with them before they are gone.
I think I must disagree with at least a part of this.
Combat has a goal, to defeat the other side. The people engaged in this goal will want to achieve by the quickest way possible.
What that means is that usually - I've found - people who engage in the combat of dnd and other such rpgs will engage in that combat until the end of it.
And not RP.
However, I do not disagree that it might be possible to engage in such, but it has to be recognized that it has to BE ADDED ONTO the actual system.
If you click on an enemy and you two fight it out until the end, no default RP has happened by the system of Neverwinter Nights.

Furthermore, although yes it does have to be added onto, I truly wonder how much of this has happened - let's say percentage wise - in the dnd type play that has actually happened? In my experience, it is not the default method of play to add things onto the system of combat with such recognition of what is happening, and with such intents.

I would agree that it makes stories - because stories are a sequence of events. But I would have to disagree with what I think the spirit of the comment is. The RP will not happen if all you do is fight.

User avatar
Royal Blood
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:01 pm

Hey, to respond to the original poster,

Impactful role play will likely lend itself to get the best result. Nobody wants to roll a character they've invested weeks or months of time into based on a PVP encounter where they died in a field or maybe they were just matched up against a build that they had no chance of winning against. Equally, with more impactful and deep role play a character is more likely to change their behavior in my opinion as opposed to simply being defeated in a PVP encounter

I would search for creative ways to resist villains and equally villains should search for creative ways to engage.

For both sides I think one thing that is a responsible quality of a role player is to allow interactions to impact their character. If you lose in combat don't lead another raid up there next week. Back off if you get defeated. Reevaluate your options. And then come at it from a different angle.

ultimately however as some of the other comments have stated you can only control your own actions. That also means that you control what you get out of an interaction whether you enjoyed it or not. And what you make of it.

Be your own personal best and don't allow the actions of others to influence too heavily your enjoyment.

Last, I think it helps to consider what makes a character successful. A successful character in my mind is one that lends itself to a good narrative and a good story. Your character is not any less valuable or less successful if they die or get defeated in combat. You can take any situation and turn it into something positive. For example a successful Chancellor may not be the chancellor that was able to rule for 5 in-game years and defeat everyone who resisted them. Rather, a successful Chancellor may be the chancellor that only survived 3 months but the story in those three months was on fire and Drew people Into it.

Same idea works In what you're describing I think. So what if they come back? Maybe it's the 9th raid this week? What do you make out of it? What do you do about? Have an IC response and be creative!
I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

Grench02
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:38 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Grench02 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:07 pm

I see several replies above effectively stating to, "RP your way through/out of the encounter." That is fine IF the parties involved RP'd their way -into- the encounter.

We, *offers his hand to shake*. This opens the interaction and allows for consensual interaction.

Do we, *goes instantly hostile on entry and demands all present participate in her story/plan or die* - then proceeds to kill any who responded (participated in RP = eligible for PVP) or not (did not reply = non-compliant with demands = eligible for PVP)?

There might be some places or times where that could/should be allowed - encounters at sea, planned raids, etc. But should it be allowed everywhere across all encounters?

When dealing with a determined and recurring high level villain intent on predating on writ-work routes with a "submit to and participate in my story or die" mentality, there really isn't a viable mechanic on Arelith or story that players can use or write to actually -do- anything about the 'bad guy'.

Mechanical solutions are not impossible.
I have played on another server where a mechanic was introduced to help with this - and it worked somewhat. Killing another character in PVP placed a stain on the winning character. The one they killed could console command "-forgive -charname-" to erase that stain. Believe it or not, we almost always forgave the PVP kills. Too many stains would make a character an 'outcast' that would be attacked by any NPC they encounter. Stains would also 'fade' over time. I suspect this was modeled somewhat on 'Reputation' in Baldur's Gate.

On Arelith with the wall transition, in theory, a menu could pop up asking the recently deceased, "Do you forgive -charname- for this death? -Yes- -No-". Educating new players on use of "-forgive &charname&" was, admittedly, a bit of a pain.

Effectively, this gives an incentive to someone who wants to play a killer to RP into the encounter further to ensure consent - in hopes that those they kill will agree and forgive the PVP death. Otherwise they risk acquiring enough 'stain' to result in more or less having to 'take a break' for a few days until the 'stain fades'. Kind of like hunters having a 'bag limit'.

Throwing thoughts out there.

Apokriphos
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Apokriphos » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:43 pm

I have found that hostile roleplay in Arelith are my most memorable encounters in the game, far beyond any NPC dangers.

We all play Arelith with an expectation that the character's we control live in a world as realistic to the setting as possible. This means a goblin player character visiting the surface can expect any character he sees to attack or flee, even if the goblin character himself means no harm to anyone. With the exception of commoners, everyone plays an adventurer, and routinely hunts and kills goblins for sport, so the player's character should be fearful of this expectation, making it extremely perilous for him to walk there.

If players had to agree to have hostile roleplay OOC before it occurred, very odd situations violating what you see is what you get principle would occur, with goblins routinely ignoring players because they may not be interested in being accosted on their way to a mining or harvesting opportunity.

Conflict within the roleplay rules we require in the game makes the world more interesting, dynamic, and real. Limiting this to some OOC agreement beforehand would be harmful to the world we play.

---

One of the largest problems with conflict roleplay is the conflict itself. It favors the party with cat-like reflexes over interesting roleplay like you might expect or enjoy in a good story, not leaving much room or time for conversation.

I believe that once this approved suggestion is implimented: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=26363&p=210551&hil ... al#p210551 so long as -pray and regeneration is not allowed within it, more opportunity for roleplay in hostile encounters will appear. Perhaps this will leave less players with a bad taste regarding conflict by enabling another way for two hostile parties to converse.

User avatar
Anatida
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:00 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Anatida » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:24 pm

I want to lovingly challenge the subject line of this post with my own question.

Why approach RP with the mindset that Good always wins?

I certainly understand the OP's question and dilemma. However, I think all of us (myself most of all) have a tendency to get stuck within our own view. So I reiterate, respectfully, "How can you stop a villain PC?" "Why is there a presumption that Good should win and the Villain lose?" IE: That the villain is the one that must be stopped. Why not those pesky goodies that just keep coming back no matter how many times we might kill them?

There are entire nations and even universes (within the multi-verse) of Forgotten Realms that are ruled by evil; be it evil empires or evil creatures (Far Realms).

I would ask that as a player we consider; most evil is not evil simply for the sake of being evil. Many evil races (for example drow) believe they have been deeply wronged and struggle to regain what was taken from them. Many faiths that are considered evil truly believe that their god's mandates are what would be best for the world. Now I'm not saying this thinking is right or wrong. I'm offering a viewpoint that [generic] you may not have considered.

Grumpy's reply was and is marvelous. If a given villainy has stopped being a story tool and is simply an irritation, stop interacting with it. The same is true for any story whether it is being pushed by evil, good, or some faction or other.

Happy Gaming!
~Ana
Last edited by Anatida on Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My pronouns are: She/Her/That *itch


BoredGM

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by BoredGM » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:25 pm

See my response in the other thread about PvP currently :).

strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by strong yeet » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:47 pm

I think the idea of simply "ignoring an irritation" in regards to someone else's attempts at villainous or some kind of antagonistic (not necessarily villainous; paladins make great antagonists, and are obviously not evil) roleplay is a very dangerous one, not to mention quite frankly disrespectful. At best it devalues the actions of other players and is somewhat condescending ("i am better than this person/these people/that faction and don't deserve disruption to my story at their hands").

At worst it allows for a sort of doublethink that allows characters to simply ignore choice or consequence, or simply the wider world around them. I do not think bubbles that defy what would otherwise be "reality" (in the sense that what is perceptible of events happening around a place or a character by other players, either through eyewitness or the words of other characters) are healthy. This especially is a very ugly thing, and is a great way to make other players feel awful. It's a problem of communication -- the answer here should not be to cut off all IC communication, but open alternative OOC lines. Maybe the other side believes that you are having a great time. How can they know?

It's also important to look inward and figure out why you are not having fun. Is it because of a personal unwillingness to bend? It can be easy to fall into an unhealthy mindset, where other players' actions are cast in an uglier light than they should.

I certainly do not think it is healthy to define other peoples' roleplay as an irritant; collaborative story necessitates collaboration, not exclusion of elements that defy a pre-written plan. If there are troubles with player conduct, especially with such things as PVP are concerned, then such issues will never be made better with exclusion or any IC measures: only the DM team can truly deal with such things.

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Aradin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:14 pm

Anatida wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:24 pm
I want to lovingly challenge the subject line of this post with my own question.

Why approach RP with the mindset that Good always wins?

I certainly understand the OP's question and dilemma. However, I think all of us (myself most of all) have a tendency to get stuck within our own view. So I reiterate, respectfully, "How can you stop a villain PC?" "Why is there a presumption that Good should win and the Villain lose?" IE: That the villain is the one that must be stopped. Why not those pesky goodies that just keep coming back no matter how many times we might kill them?
For sure. That's why I included the 'And should you?' in the title, and questioned as such in my post. Mostly this is about me trying to better understand Arelith's social dynamic as it pertains to "good guys" and "bad guys".
Also seeing what I can learn about how to resolve these kinds of conflicts in a satisfying way for everyone's stories (if possible; obviously that can't always be the case). I agree with some of the replies here saying that if you're pursuing conflict with someone or against a group and doing one approach over and over is getting stale, it'd probably be more fun to switch things up and try a new approach.

I also want to make clear I have no grudges, no ill will, etc. I'm having maximum fun! I'm just trying to get a sense of things.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:00 pm

Aradin wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:14 pm
Anatida wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:24 pm
I want to lovingly challenge the subject line of this post with my own question.

Why approach RP with the mindset that Good always wins?

I certainly understand the OP's question and dilemma. However, I think all of us (myself most of all) have a tendency to get stuck within our own view. So I reiterate, respectfully, "How can you stop a villain PC?" "Why is there a presumption that Good should win and the Villain lose?" IE: That the villain is the one that must be stopped. Why not those pesky goodies that just keep coming back no matter how many times we might kill them?
For sure. That's why I included the 'And should you?' in the title, and questioned as such in my post. Mostly this is about me trying to better understand Arelith's social dynamic as it pertains to "good guys" and "bad guys".
Also seeing what I can learn about how to resolve these kinds of conflicts in a satisfying way for everyone's stories (if possible; obviously that can't always be the case). I agree with some of the replies here saying that if you're pursuing conflict with someone or against a group and doing one approach over and over is getting stale, it'd probably be more fun to switch things up and try a new approach.

I also want to make clear I have no grudges, no ill will, etc. I'm having maximum fun! I'm just trying to get a sense of things.
Here's a head-space thing that helps me.

Arelith is not Game of Thrones.

Arelith is Star Trek (Stay with me here) Or even Doctor Who.

In Star Trek (at least the older series) The main cast were regularly put in peril. But you basicaly knew that Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Data, ect - would all survive the end of the episode. Main character deaths were exceedingly rare.

But that didn't mean you weren't invested in what happened. You still wanted to see how they'd escape situations, how they'd react, ect.

Likewise, to use Doctor Who as another example - You kinda know that the villains, esp the big bad ones, will generally return. Even if they've been bested, but that's fine. The interest was how they were bested -this episode.-

Another great example, and more modern, is the TV show Once Upon a Time. The main cast in that rarely meet any serious 'end', the villains win and loose, but endure, as do the 'heroes'. Its' actually a little tiresome as TV, imo, but it's very similar to how Arelith works, or at least should work.

Don't look for THE BIG WIN look for perhaps 'Today's Win' or 'Todays Loss.' And build on it, and enjoy whatever happens next episode.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Anime Sword Fighter
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:47 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:12 pm

Arelith as Star Trek is totally an apt metaphor. It also makes me want a Spelljammer module PW more.

I think what Arelith lacks that makes it so awkward is a structural logic for respawning as often as characters can do. Sure we have the in game "Oh my god saved me!" Or even more simply *raise dead* on someone that dies, but it really does break seriousness of death once it happens so often and leads to people casually making remarks like "I died three times to BIG BAD NPC" or "We slayed that paladin twice over." while the paladin is standing around the corner. It's just awkward!

Some kind of cleaner, more in-depth reasoning for the ability to walk through the portal and come out whole would be cool. Ive always been a fan of respawning in some kind of hospital - or tavern - rather than randomly throughout the world with a little "Oh we found you and nursed you back to health" type thing from NPCs. But that would be quite a bit of areas to make to account for different places to spawn in. Respawning at gravesites hones in the fact that you've literally died and are rising from the ground out of your grave.

Idk tho just some thoughts

Nevrus
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Nevrus » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:04 am

I'm going to throw another wrench in this that should really cut to the heart of a matter.

Are you really interested in opposing a character? Do you want your character's story to involve them working, stumbling, failing, but ultimately undermining the other character?

Ask the other player.

Yes. Say "I think what you're doing is awesome and I'd like to be your opponent. Can we work out a narrative arc that will ultimately result in your character being stopped?"

The best villains I've ever dealt with are the ones where me and the other player were in communication and were both interested in creating memorable scenes, not even knowing how most of them would play out.

Is it as immersive as possible? No. Is it more immersive than killing that slaver goblin for the tenth time and then paying him a ransom the next week? Yes.

This also requires that the participants understand a few important tenets:
1. Narrative arcs mean typically one side will be the 'loser' and the other side will be the 'winner' until the very end when it's finally upturned.
2. Someone is willing and interested in playing out the consequences of loss. It doesn't necessarily mean character deletion, but showing the world that you lost and it cost you.
3. The ultimate victor will play out step 2 themselves on their way to achieving that victory.
4. The person set to be 'stopped' has to be doing something that the other character CAN stop. A paladin that doesn't hang around with evil and doesn't have any manipulative spy friends can't do anything to your internal Underdark politics. If the reason you are doing evil is to get enough gold to do something to advance your RP, and you're going to keep coming back until you do regardless of how often you get killed, you aren't making a story that your opponents can interact with in any meaningful way.

I'll end this with some Greek definitions that are good to keep in mind:
An Antagonist is "One who initiates change."
A Protagonist is "One who reacts to change."

Both are necessary to create a dynamic narrative.
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.

User avatar
Diegovog
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:23 pm

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Diegovog » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:36 am

Nevrus wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:04 am
Ask the other player.

Yes. Say "I think what you're doing is awesome and I'd like to be your opponent. Can we work out a narrative arc that will ultimately result in your character being stopped?"

The best villains I've ever dealt with are the ones where me and the other player were in communication and were both interested in creating memorable scenes, not even knowing how most of them would play out.
When you are a bystander or just watching these scenes, they are theatrical. Sure, you're going to read some extensive, beautifully written emotes, but you just know nothing is going to happen. It's an antagonist that's not even a real threat. I understand a lot of people enjoy this novel approach, but at the end of the day the consequence of such encounter is as worrying as the next day's gossip.

I'm also not a fan of too much OOC driving IC stories. It feels less natural, less spontaneous and predictable. Which is why it's SUPER hard being a good storytelling DM.

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: How can you actually stop a villain PC? And should you?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:12 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:09 am

Rather than focusing on the real life survival instinct premise of extinguishing the character to end their threat, find a way to ruin their goal.
This is 1000000000% the truth and should be plastered everywhere. This works on both sides of the heroes-villains aisle.

Defeat is not death on Arelith, defeat is submission, failure, and loss.
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

Post Reply