What kind of interaction would the surface/underdark want from the other?

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

Posting the question into its own thread, rather then into one of the existing ones, so it can hopefully be started free of baggage from past threads.

I have noted over the past couple years that there is often dramatic differences in what players see as meaningful, and enjoyable interaction with other characters, factions, and settlements.

The question being posed in this thread is specifically what kind of interaction, conflict, and General rp players would like from those on the other side of the UD/Surface divide? Also, if it can be done without sparking a forum war, what kind of interaction is not desirable?

[DangerDolphin]

Hi! My ideas for the kind of encounters/plots I would enjoy seeing as a surface player:

Drow raid the surface to defile a shrine to a goodly deity. Coming across novice adventurers, they gloat at their inability to protect their temples and fade away into the dark before powerful surface forces can be rallied.

A group of starving goblins sneak up to the farms outside Cordor and steal all the crops. Any surfacers they come across, they demand hand over all food and ale on their person before they are allowed to leave.

A caravan of Duergar merchants set up shop outside Cordor in the outskirts selling rare forge goods. They also have some under the counter illegal items (Like poison) but not mentioned to anyone but those who ask. (Not sure this one would actually work right now, given the current administration)

A group of human outcasts set up a surface camp because the oppressive darkness and claustrophobia is driving them mad. Local authorities are suspicious and hostile to them, but goodly Ilmateri priests take pity and try to help them, sparking a furious debate.

A tribe of kobolds hears stories of a dragon on the surface and take a pilgrimage to visit it. They try to hide from most surfacers, but may also come out to interrogate lone wanders about the location.

An Orog warlord takes over the arena at Sibayad and challengers surfacers to fight him in single combat. He pledges that if he is defeated, he will return to the Underdark for another two months. If he wins however, he demands concessions from the loser...

[Griefmaker]

Hi! My ideas for the kind of encounters/plots I would enjoy seeing as a surface player:

Drow raid the surface to defile a shrine to a goodly deity. Coming across novice adventurers, they gloat at their inability to protect their temples and fade away into the dark before powerful surface forces can be rallied.

A group of starving goblins sneak up to the farms outside Cordor and steal all the crops. Any surfacers they come across, they demand hand over all food and ale on their person before they are allowed to leave.

A caravan of Duergar merchants set up shop outside Cordor in the outskirts selling rare forge goods. They also have some under the counter illegal items (Like poison) but not mentioned to anyone but those who ask. (Not sure this one would actually work right now, given the current administration)

A group of human outcasts set up a surface camp because the oppressive darkness and claustrophobia is driving them mad. Local authorities are suspicious and hostile to them, but goodly Ilmateri priests take pity and try to help them, sparking a furious debate.

A tribe of kobolds hears stories of a dragon on the surface and take a pilgrimage to visit it. They try to hide from most surfacers, but may also come out to interrogate lone wanders about the location.

An Orog warlord takes over the arena at Sibayad and challengers surfacers to fight him in single combat. He pledges that if he is defeated, he will return to the Underdark for another two months. If he wins however, he demands concessions from the loser...

I totally dig these ideas! This is far superior to the typical "underdarker/surfacer! Quick get a lynch mob and kill them!"

But more ideas like this and a even more important, a better reaction by those being "invaded" by the characters doing stuff like this would be superb.

[Aradin]

As they guy who started one of the other threads, I'm certainly no expert but I have gained some insight through all the replies.
It's a little hard to say; it's like you said, we're all different people and so what we see as meaningful and fun varies from person to person. I don't feel super qualified to say what is objectively good stuff, so I'll only say what would be interesting from my perspective.

It would be super fun to engage in some longer-lasting cross-elevation storylines. I think one thing that feels a little fatigued to me is the notion of how Underdarkers and surfacers are expected to interact. If you're an Underdarker and you want to RP with surfacers, kidnapping and collaring them isn't the only way to do it. And based on what I've experienced in-game that seems to be what most interactions revolve around (this could of course be massively wrong in an overall perspective and not representative of what's actually happening; again, this is just my experience).
Of course it's really tricky and taboo for an Underdarker to go to the surface and vice versa, but there are other ways to interact besides collaring and combat. I've had the pleasure of brief but interesting RP with Underdarkers on my surface-dwelling char, and I've come out of those interactions thinking to myself "I as a player wish I had a reason to continue this relationship, but IC I don't."

That's what it comes down to, I think. It seems to me that Underdarkers don't have much of a reason to go the surface besides running dungeons and getting new slaves. Surfacers don't have much of a reason to go to the Underdark besides running dungeons and freeing captured slaves. I think there's a lot of possibility for some great RP, we just need to think outside the box a little. Heck, it's possible that there's amazing RP and great subterfuge and cool plots happening right under my nose and I just haven't noticed. As one example I saw the Erudite Arcanum posting advertisements in surface settlements to purchase written works, which is RP potential of a nature I haven't personally seen before.

Anyways I'll stop rambling and sum it up by saying: maybe we can think outside the box and come up with interesting, non-tired reasons why surfacers would want to interact with Andunorians (and vice versa). DangerDolphin's ideas look like some great launchpad ideas to me (I particularly like the arena one).

[Eira]

One note is that oftentimes UDer and surfacer interactions are heavily watched. And if a UDer is a little too "friendly", they get a talking to.

So for those that feel as if their only options are to be hostile, that is what they will do.

I've been in Sibayad as a kobold, for a very legitimate still-evil-but-non-hostile reason, and a group of NPC paladins showed up to kill her specifically. One transition away from the kobold merchant, and in a very well-known "neutral" area.

Like, sure. That makes sense, I do play a very evil character (that I am unsure how well known they are), but it felt very frustrating at the time.

[DangerDolphin]

I've been in Sibayad as a kobold, for a very legitimate still-evil-but-non-hostile reason, and a group of NPC paladins showed up to kill her specifically. One transition away from the kobold merchant, and in a very well-known "neutral" area.

Like, sure. That makes sense, I do play a very evil character (that I am unsure how well known they are), but it felt very frustrating at the time.

That's really disheartening, I'd love to RP with some player kobolds in Sibayad. I dislike how it always has to be a fight when running into underdark players.

[Apokriphos]

That's really disheartening, I'd love to RP with some player kobolds in Sibayad. I dislike how it always has to be a fight when running into underdark players.

There has been a group of players looking to turn Sibayad into a neutral city like the Shadovar. Maybe one day it will happen.

[Aradin]

^^ Agreed. My fun interactions with UD characters has been when we're out in the wilds, crossing each other's paths. I had a really good one recently where an UD dungeon was too tough for either of us individually, so we begrudgingly agreed to work together. We had this animosity and distrust between us the whole way through while watching each other's backs. It was great.

As soon as you get into settlements, it becomes a lot less of a grey zone for how you navigate the encounter, in my experience. It's disheartening to hear that about Sibayad, since House Brandt is doing so much work to try and make it a neutral ground. Imagine if it could actually be a safe hub for UD/surfacer interactions. What an RP dream.

[Huschpfusch]

I would like to see more Y-structured than just I-structure events/stories!
So at some point the opposing parties disentangle from story and go on seperate quests rather than bump their heads in repeat-ad-infinite-fashion.
e.g. UDlers go rob dwarven ale from the surface. In their raid they manage to get one barrel back to UD.
-> down in UD they discover there is no ale inside but something else! Maybe some evil creature that hands out a "cursed item/blessing" for reward and then UDlers must go on to find solution to curse somwehre in UD.
-> up on surface the defender PCs discover also that there was no ale inside smashed barrels during fight and so they then go investigate the smuggling business of dangerous creatures on surface.
So two totally seperate storylines originating from an initially us-vs-them event.

[Griefmaker]

I've been in Sibayad as a kobold, for a very legitimate still-evil-but-non-hostile reason, and a group of NPC paladins showed up to kill her specifically. One transition away from the kobold merchant, and in a very well-known "neutral" area.

Like, sure. That makes sense, I do play a very evil character (that I am unsure how well known they are), but it felt very frustrating at the time.

Is that one of those random mob types of things? Sort of like the drow ambush parties for surfacers in the UD? Because otherwise, non-random paladin NPC mob is pretty lame.

[GwaiLo]

A tavern where everyone is welcome to get sloshed. I can think of two that exist but they aren't on the surface or underdark, and nobody is ever there.

[Eira]

It was not a random mob spawn.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The very first thing I look for when attempting to engage a player from a different faction in some kind of adversarial plot has changed over the years- I look for a player who understands that while our characters is team good/neutral/evil/law/chaos/UD/Surface/Cordor/Brog/Sibayad/Sencliff/etc. etc., we are both simply players on Arelith trying to have a good time with some narrative, and that can entail losing for either side as appropriate.

Best way to avoid dealing with drama OOC, IMO. Most of us have some level of separation from our characters, but seeing players proudly proclaim to be team UD or team surface or team good or team evil is still a thing, and while I'm happy if that works for them, I generally find the mentality to be oppressive to the smooth flow of a prolonged story- people become invested in "their team" winning, because they don't want to disappoint said teammates.

It's a normal reaction, and one that's hard to step back from - the people who can are narrative gold mines waiting to be tapped.

[Nevrus]

As a surfacer:

I have heard tales of a very persistent kobold, who through RP and the use of fixtures, attempted evil rituals outside of Light's Keep for years until it finally took, and his rituals were always discovered and disrupted before he finally won.

The key being they could be disrupted without his death. Just by all the fixtures getting bashed.

The thing about enslavement is that it directly targets players - and characters that are generally too weak to offer any resistance - and defines that character's entire next month of playtime if it takes. If the player isn't interested, that's the end of the story - a big bad meanie or a group of them stomped me and then left.

I would far prefer the spirit of the suggestions listed above, as a surfacer - there are goals that don't directly involve targeting a player, but that others can show up with and interfere with, or fail to interfere with.

Because we are in a roleplaying server, literally everyone can take on the effective powers of a DM for small events where you aren't doing something that will affect the core setting or require any building. Do a ritual to summon a demon, undergo a rite of passage that involves killing a bunch of wild animals where it might piss druids off, walk around with an infectious disease that will still spread if you die and only the surfacers can cure it.

Make stories that are different from the stories we read about on message boards every week. If you make it interesting enough a lot of us are willing to take a loss to help it progress as players.

But please, if you're beaten, don't just show up the next day like nothing happened. A problem that can't be engaged with in any meaningful way is not a problem, it's an annoying reality.

[Nitro]

To be fair, Sibayad has a massive sign at each of the entrances that specifically states monsters are not welcome, and that if they must visit they are to do business fast then leave. The Kobold two transitions away is there because its not welcome in the city.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Individualized relationships; less reliance on faction roleplay. I want your kobold and my dwarf to foster a relationship because it's your kobold and my dwarf, not because you're an UDer and I'm a Surfacer.

The older I get, the more I've come to loathe triggerfingers that funnel me do a particular path because 'lo and behold, you're an UDer and I'm a Surfacer so let's just get out our swords and do it all again.

My most fun I've ever had with UDers is when my character actually knew their name - we were known to each other. We had some kind of vested interest in one another.

Everything else makes me because I know there's a player behind that character with probably some sort of story to tell or scene to create, but instead, we gotta roll it up to faction roleplay.

edit: also, don't enslave me. let's try something else

[Echohawk]

In honor of the late Tyros:

hate

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[msterswrdsmn]

Right now, i'm playing as a sort of messenger between the UD and surface. Its very touch and go, as most of the times I wind up on the surface with a message, I end up staring back at an army of people. Which, given how things are IG, is a perfectly normal reaction (seriously).

Doing this kind of stuff very much involves taking the initiative to approach the hostile side, fully expecting to die. Doing it in a way that doesn't involve both sides wanting to rip you apart is very tricky to do. Its something you really need to approach carefully, and expect for things to blow up at any given moment.

[Grench02]

In my humble opinion only, and I think these would apply for surface as well as underdark.

Interaction in the form of a planned raid? Great! We need more of these.

Occasional interaction in the form of ambush? Fine - so long as it doesn't become systematic without a resolvable plot.

Continuously using a high level character for hunting the weakest characters near settlements for months on end with no resolution regardless of how many low levels get killed or how many times your high level gets killed? Gets old.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

I would like a sort of rocky, slightly cavey area in a field that serves as a midway point between full Underdark and Surface that has some central function, like a tower that has a secret chest you have to explore or an old fort to be held without NPCs, only PC battles there though I understand it would perhaps tread too much to making the world too "game"-ey with it. I like LOTROs PVP Monsters v. Humans/Elves/etc. for the aesthetic of the armies of light and dark fighting over broken down keeps.

Interaction in this area would necessarily be hostile because of the areas strategic importance between Surface/UD. Like Deep Space 9s wormhole and the station during the Cardassian / Bajoran war. Maybe depending on who captures it, there is an NPC to defeat that serves as a "Boss." The NPC race and class depends on the last PC that killed it . So if you're a kobold you'd leave a kobold NPC there to defend it. I dont know what the ownable forts are like but maybe something similar to that.

[Xarge VI]

I have some advice from playing an evil drow witch, who was mostly well received on the surface, at least according to the tells I've received. I think this applies well to both surface and underdark:

Don't get frustrated when people escape you, fireball over Wail of Banshee is generally better way to grow your character's infamy, in fact try to avoid causing a pvp death on first encounter. However you don't need to make the escape easy (admittedly that part takes some finesse.) Narrow escape is generally better for starting a story than death and respawn.

Don't be afraid to retreat, It allows the heroes to be heroic while you still keep the threat of monstrous presence alive (And vice versa).
If you are outnumbered/outpowered surrender is also an option, even if it may lead to your character's death it gives the heroes a moral dilemma to consider.

Be afraid, be very afraid if the situation calls for it. Captive that takes captivity like it was a nothing is not very fun. Even if your character is tough/Insane/whatever there should be some fear coming out of the seams when the situation calls for it.
There is a distinct difference between being tough and being invulnerable.

If you enjoyed a particular encounter target that character.

[Arienette]

I play a Surface and a UD char. Personally i wish more UDers would "stick around" for some backlash.

Seems to go like this:

1. Bad guys come up and do something mischevious.

2. Bad guys immediately retreat back to Andunor.

3. Repeat the next day.

[BoredGM]

Man I could quote like 5 people for this one haha.

But in the other threads Grumpy agreed you basically could try to be a mini dm and also said something about giving us tools.
Now...here's what I see as a previous tabletop dm and a new player here on Arelith.

So first off, as a tabletop DM you have all the power to make the monsters and the encounters and the structure/environment of the dungeon etc.
As a player on Arelith, you don't have that here. So first off recognize that we can't really do as much as is typical when making such RPG based story lines.

However, the aims are - or could be - a bit different here on Arelith. We might not want a full dungeon crawl that takes 4 - 20 sessions. We might not want this part of the game or that part of the game. We want to try to aim for RP, or whatever else you might want.

Encounters might not have combat as a solution, and if they do the players might want 2 groups of people around equal level so as to be not one-sided etc. That requires a group of players on each side maybe?
All in all what I'm trying to say is as a DM for tabletop you can make entire dungeons, cities, etc. Here on Arelith, I think you'd have to be a bit more creative in what you want to do and how you want to do it.

As an example, before I departed Skaljard for the mainland I hosted a party. Now of course this is just a party and we didn't do things for stories and such, but I did want to have some sort of activities for us to do together.
So what I decided to do was make a bunch of those semi large potted ferns and drop them in the weald north of town in a semi open and peaceful area. I dropped them in such a way to form a sort of raceway. I also placed some of them semi close to each other so you had to use wasd. Then for the two people that came to the first party, we had a little race in the potted fern maze.
Another activity I had prepared - among more - was I had taken a bunch of writing paper and made them into numbered cards. Then we used them for a simple game of memory on the floor next to the potted fern maze. We three had a bit of fun outside of writs for a time. The potted fern thing reminds me of the above example with the kobold wizard and the fixtures.

All in all, we might have to be a bit more creative as people who want to make smaller stories or events, since we don't have the FULL powers of a DM or Developer. We might have to aim for smaller, sometimes one shot things. We might have to do things outside the box, not regular dnd type go on an adventure and come back to town after stories.

Also, consider that - I think recently - there has been a lot of DM's online going on about how the players can lose besides just death? This is because it is supposed to be something like a game, and games are supposed to have a way to lose, but in DnD this isn't typically so obvious. This is because it is supposed to be something like attrition over so many encounters per day, and due to polls it's clear that some people at tables don't even play like that! So then people are asking, well how can we make them lose in other ways besides just straight out oh this encounter is too hard.
So consider other states of loss for things on Arelith.

By the way, 30+ potted ferns was about 300+ clay. The people in town were like "Hey why is he riding his horse everywhere today?"
Hehehe.

[The GrumpyCat]

But in the other threads Grumpy agreed you basically have to be a mini dm and also said something about giving us tools.
Now...here's what I see as a previous tabletop dm and a new player here on Arelith.

Wait? What?

No.

Ok it's ENCOURAGED to do so via the RPR system. If you want to, and are able to, master it then your RPR
may well be higher than if you don't. But you don't HAVE to. If you HAD to then we'd simply ban everyone who wasn't a 40 rpr.
And we'd have very few players.

[BoredGM]

Haha didn't mean it that way, it's been changed.