Breaking a Disguise through Roleplay (formerly phrased as Smarts)

[Ninjimmy]

Since discussing disguise is all the rage, do people consider it meta-gaming if an intelligent or observant character cracks a disguise because they recognise a speech-pattern, or mannerism and just make the connection instead of making the spot check?

Personally, I think if you're playing a smart or observant character then it makes sense that they might cotton to something even if they can't pierce the disguise, but I could be in the minority. Thoughts?

[-XXX-]

Joe asks Bob to remove his hood/helm. Beneath hood/helm he can see Bob's bright blue hair and horns. Because this is Super Distinctive he can go 'omg it's Bob!' even without passing the *looks* check.

This DM ruling just ended Disguise as a functional feature.

Please consider reverting this.

Bob has lots in bluff, it's reasonable to assume with his high bluff, he would be able to appl ymakeup, wigs, ect- things that cant be properly represented IG.

Why can't this apply to blue hair and horns as well?

[/b][/i]ww.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

As we can see, disguising as a different age, race, and gender entirely are a pittance in terms of penalties.

For the same reason you can't be a drow wearing a bikini and going 'Oh no, I'm actually a moon elf!'

WYSIWYG

This hasn't changed the feature. Ok I'll put it another way.

99% out of 100, you need to break someones disguise to recognise them.

This is REGUARDLESS of the presence, or not, of any Hood, Helm, or other covering.

HOWEVER!

The rules of What You See Is What You Get are still in place. SO there may be edge cases, where DMS go 'No, you female Drow Monk cannot pretend to be a Male Halfling Paladin.

Likwise, if you're playing a Dwarven Red Dragon Deciple, and someone forces you to take off your cloak, revealing your wings... and you're the only Dwarf Red Dragon Deciple around, even if your bluff is 100, it's very reasonable to guess that you are, in fact, That Dwarf.

These are RARE cases though. Generally speaking, for 99% of the time, you NEED TO PASS YOUR SPOT CHECK TO BREACH A DISGUISE, REGUARDLESS OF HELM, HOOD, OR OTHER COVERING.

For reference and context I suggest reading the entire thread here - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21664&p=173313&hil ... ne#p173313

[Emotionaloverload]

Character A sees Character B. Character B has a certain way of speaking, a particular outfit and description. Character B punches Character A in the face and takes his bag of cashews.

Then Character B runs into the Nomad and uses -disguise but his way of speaking, particular outfit and description stay. Character B has made no real effort to actually disguise beyond the mechanical function. Character A enters with the guards and points Disguise Character B out even though he didn't break the disguise as the very possible suspect.

This scenario is one of the instances where I feel that observational disguise breaking is within the reasonable parameters. That said, without actually breaking the disguise, it would leave your character the space to not be entirely convinced that they are right about their accusation.

However beyond that, I would be very very cautious about observational disguise breaking because if the character is~ that observant they will have the skills and stats to back that rp up.

-S

[Archnon]

Alternatively the game developers have made amazing tools available to quickly change your outfit and description. It is not that hard to switch these. Even having a stock outfit color change saved and a hotkey to clear your description. My personal favorite is to just load up the base vesture and save it, then you look like a brand new player. Throw the hood on to boot. Set your disguise on the outfit as "Nothing to see here" and you can have some fun.

Disguise mechanics is a two way street!

If you are going to break the disguise because of WYSIWYG you should have some of the mechanical skills to back it up!

If you are going to use the mechanics of disguise, then you should have the RP to back it up and that means investing in the disguise.

[Aardra]

guys is it ok to cheat

[Ninjimmy]

Welllllll, alright, give an example since the response above implies it wasn't clear-

You encounter another character called Traveller(disguised) who addresses your character by a nickname that only one other person calls them.
Is it Meta to assume IC that the disguised traveller is the character in question or, if you fail the spot, should you immediately be flummoxed and wonder HOW someone could possibly know this?

I'm not so much talking not changing the description or not changing your clothes, I mean RP reasons why your character might make the connection.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Character A sees Character B. Character B has a certain way of speaking, a particular outfit and description. Character B punches Character A in the face and takes his bag of cashews.

Then Character B runs into the Nomad and uses -disguise but his way of speaking, particular outfit and description stay. Character B has made no real effort to actually disguise beyond the mechanical function. Character A enters with the guards and points Disguise Character B out even though he didn't break the disguise as the very possible suspect.

This scenario is one of the instances where I feel that observational disguise breaking is within the reasonable parameters. That said, without actually breaking the disguise, it would leave your character the space to not be entirely convinced that they are right about their accusation.

However beyond that, I would be very very cautious about observational disguise breaking because if the character is~ that observant they will have the skills and stats to back that rp up.

-S

I'd never do this myself.

Disguise is disguise. If they're in -disguise mode, and I can't breach it, and it's not an extreme and disingenuous example like the drow-in-a-bikini-but-says-she's-a-moon-elf, then the burden rests on the spotter.

People conflate and bloat the -disguise system with the What You See Is What You Get philosophy. I think you should avoid WYSIWYG almost entirely, and when its clear there's abuse, that's a breach of the Be Nice rule (because abusing mechanics to be a douche always is).

Character A has no reasonable assumption to assume its Character B. No more than any other individual in the tavern.
Disguised Character B could just be so incredibly alike to Character B, but they're not the same.
They're someone else.
Would Character A really accuse someone besides Character B?
Disguised Character B is not Character B.

-disguise is very difficult to pull off in the modern server climate. Each scenario should always be in their favour. Unless you can breach, and unless its egregious, you shouldn't even entertain these "what if" scenarios. Just give it to the person -disguising.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

It's not against the rules to guess. If someone's disguise is so awful you can guess who they are, then you're doing just that. I don't think that's metagaming since you're working with evidence presented.

It's more than the 99% edge cases that was quoted earlier. It's more like 90%. I see a lot of people who don't put effort into their disguises. In fact, my character will IC tell other people about things to look out for, regarding people who have key character traits that they always have throughout all of their disguises.

This is all IC. There's room for error. I might guess wrong, and I won't even know if I guessed wrong. But a disguise goes both ways, if someone spends zero effort trying to RP being disguised, that's sort of abusing a mechanic that's meant to be RPed.

The wiki even says this. Don't use -disguise if you're not going to disguise.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Disguise

Being disguised means that your character is making an active effort to either appear inconspicuous, shroud their identity, or outright pretend to be somebody else. This effort must also come from the player and be reflected in the roleplay, for a character that acts, speaks and looks the same way as they do without the disguise will beckon for common sense.

...


As said above, -disguise exists for disguising purposes. If your character is not, in any way, trying to disguise, then you should not use -disguise. Some fleeting creativity is okay, but otherwise try to keep those things to a minimum.

[Wuthering]

Welllllll, alright, give an example since the response above implies it wasn't clear-

You encounter another character called Traveller(disguised) who addresses your character by a nickname that only one other person calls them.
Is it Meta to assume IC that the disguised traveller is the character in question or, if you fail the spot, should you immediately be flummoxed and wonder HOW someone could possibly know this?

I'm not so much talking not changing the description or not changing your clothes, I mean RP reasons why your character might make the connection.

"Hey, I know that guy! He's the one who keeps misspelling traveler!"

[Eira]

Description text also exists and should be used.

Say you meet Jill. Jill's description says "A 5'2 moon elf with sapphire blue hair and three diamond piercings in her right ear. A large scar stretches from her right brow to her left cheek. A small tattoo that says Jill is on her chin."

Then later you meet Peggy (Disguised). Peggy's description says "A 5'2 moon elf with sapphire blue hair and three diamond piercings in her right ear. A large scar stretches from her right brow to her left cheek. A small tattoo that says Jill is on her chin."

Even if you didn't break the spot check, unless your character's wisdom is 2, I think it's pretty reasonable to go "wow maybe the person that looks exactly like Jill, with the tattoo saying Jill, is Jill"

With the new outfits and the range we have to use disguise, people that want to be disguised should go to even a little effort. Even if that's just making the description blank or changing the color of clothing.

[Ninjimmy]

Welllllll, alright, give an example since the response above implies it wasn't clear-

You encounter another character called Traveller(disguised) who addresses your character by a nickname that only one other person calls them.
Is it Meta to assume IC that the disguised traveller is the character in question or, if you fail the spot, should you immediately be flummoxed and wonder HOW someone could possibly know this?

I'm not so much talking not changing the description or not changing your clothes, I mean RP reasons why your character might make the connection.

"Hey, I know that guy! He's the one who keeps misspelling traveler!"

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... /traveller

This is gon' be another Colour Spray thing, isn't it.

[Nitro]

Elven warrior (Disguised)
First paragraph of description
This drow warrior oozes with malice, crimson eyes glaring at anyone looking at them

We have all the tools in the world to make disguising properly easier. Save a description to the same name as your disguise and it auto-applies. Macro a saved outfit, and now with two presses of a button you have a complete disguise. If someone disguises around a corner while the guards chasing them are out of line of sight expect to be let off scott free while still wearing the exact same outfit when the guards come around the corner and get mad that the guards call them out on it, they are the one trying to cheese the system, not the guards.

[Apokriphos]

Since discussing disguise is all the rage, do people consider it meta-gaming if an intelligent or observant character cracks a disguise because they recognise a speech-pattern, or mannerism and just make the connection instead of making the spot check?

Personally, I think if you're playing a smart or observant character then it makes sense that they might cotton to something even if they can't pierce the disguise, but I could be in the minority. Thoughts?

The Core of the Disguise Mechanic is: If your character cannot beat the mechanical spot check of the disguised PC, for all intents and purposes, they are disguised and thus unrecognizable by your PC.

All of the other exclusions are clearly written in the http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Disguise entry.

If you as a player attempt to use a players misspelling of a word or working of a particular phrase to out a disguise, then you will need to have documented proof of this connection in case the disguised player justifiably calls you out on it.

Additionally, using the disguise tag as a reason to single out disguised players to ask them to remove their helmets, when this policy isn't followed on non disguised PCs is Metagaming.

[Ninjimmy]

Since discussing disguise is all the rage, do people consider it meta-gaming if an intelligent or observant character cracks a disguise because they recognise a speech-pattern, or mannerism and just make the connection instead of making the spot check?

Personally, I think if you're playing a smart or observant character then it makes sense that they might cotton to something even if they can't pierce the disguise, but I could be in the minority. Thoughts?

The Core of the Disguise Mechanic is: If your character cannot beat the mechanical spot check of the disguised PC, for all intents and purposes, they are disguised and thus unrecognizable by your PC.

All of the other exclusions are clearly written in the http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Disguise entry.

If you as a player attempt to use a players misspelling of a word or working of a particular phrase to out a disguise, then you will need to have documented proof of this connection in case the disguised player justifiably calls you out on it.

Additionally, using the disguise tag as a reason to single out disguised players to ask them to remove their helmets, when this policy isn't followed on non disguised PCs is Metagaming.

I don't... really have an opinion on the second part? Not completely sure where it came from?

The thing I'm asking about is if you see someone use a phrase your PC only associates with one person and thus correctly guesses that they are that person, would you consider it Meta-Gaming?

It seems your answer is "It might not be if you have documentary proof that it's something only they say and would be a reasonable conclusion" which seems... kind of MORE Meta as you'd need to screencap someone you think might disguise? (that's just how I read it, happy to be corrected)

I might add, this is also predicated on the assumption you deduced correctly since it's entirely possible someone could use someone else's mannerisms as a disguise.

[Apokriphos]

...
The thing I'm asking about is if you see someone use a phrase your PC only associates with one person and thus correctly guesses that they are that person, would you consider it Meta-Gaming?

It seems your answer is "It might not be if you have documentary proof that it's something only they say and would be a reasonable conclusion" which seems... kind of MORE Meta as you'd need to screencap someone you think might disguise? (that's just how I read it, happy to be corrected)

I might add, this is also predicated on the assumption you deduced correctly since it's entirely possible someone could use someone else's mannerisms as a disguise.

The wiki clearly dictates how this exchange should occur. I recommend reading it thoroughly and following it to the letter.

Regarding your question, the problem is simple. As a player can see the disguise tag on any particular PC, they can use 'matching phrases' as an excuse to justify an identity you may have learned from a login name, even if the only connection is a mispelling of 'traveler' as mentioned above.

Players need to be extremely careful how they use information to deduce an identity if their PC cannot beat a spot check and all other rules and roleplay are followed. Regarding the helmet example, I have seen this act done frequently enough to represent in my mind a worst case scenario of metagaming the disguise tag for personal benefit.

[Aardra]

If your PC can't mechanically break someone's disguise, then your PC does not recognize them.

You wouldn't claim to have spotted someone after the fact because your character "recognized their scent" or whatever. That'd be silly. Same thing.

We're a roleplaying game. If everyone made up their own rules and improvised against mechanics without the consent of the other player, things would fall apart real quickly.

[Ninjimmy]

The wiki clearly dictates how this exchange should occur. I recommend reading it thoroughly and following it to the letter.

Regarding your question, the problem is simple. As a player can see the disguise tag on any particular PC, they can use 'matching phrases' as an excuse to justify an identity you may have learned from a login name, even if the only connection is a mispelling of 'traveler' as mentioned above.

Players need to be extremely careful how they use information to deduce an identity if their PC cannot beat a spot check and all other rules and roleplay are followed. Regarding the helmet example, I have seen this act done frequently enough to represent in my mind a worst case scenario of metagaming the disguise tag for personal benefit.

Point of order, it's the EU spelling of traveller, I wasn't making a point I'm just British.

I have read the wiki page, but this feels like a separate problem. If someone is RPing a disguise but drops subconscious hints they are that character in disguise, you could argue it's "not attempting to actually disguise." but they are, it's just something that you and the PC would observe. I can see the case for you should have to break the disguise mechanically to KNOW but at the very least, you'd suspect if someone starts using the same catchphrase. Extreme example, but that's the kinda thing I mean. Like... the player could even be doing it to drop a chance for someone to work out who they are.

Equally, I can see where the difficulty could arise with the opportunity TO meta-game by checking a username and then backwards justifying it, but assuming for now it's a genuine deduction and the character is High Int/Wis, does it not make sense they might believe someone is X based on their actions even if mechanically for whatever reason they haven't broken the spot?

Or to put it one degree apart to illustrate my stance better, if they haven't even SEEN the person in question but heard they didn't leave a name but did/said [blank] and then concludes it might have been someone based on that and says so - they haven't been able to make the Spot but might have broken the disguise based on that, that's pure RP but is circumventing the disguise mechanics?

The helmet thing I feel is a different scenario? I'm not encouraging active meta-gaming by demanding anyone with a tag strips and exposes their faces, just interactive RP by responding to someone's disguise beyond "(right click) Oh it's X" by using hints and things they've said.

[JubJub]

Disguise goes both ways, you must break the disguise but the person in disguise must also take steps for the disguise. Since the name above the character is OOC simply adding a disguise name but taking no steps to actually change your appearance isn't going to work. If I am always in bright red armor and simply one day change my name and walk about in bright red armor, you can hardly claim metagaming if folks immedietly say that looks a lot like Bob. Rp means not simply running from a guard and darting around a corner and adding disguise then expecting the guard to simply run around the corner and be like ohhh you must be someone in the exact same clothing but totally different person.

[Glowing Mushroom]

How does this affect someone if their description or outfit is exactly the same, even if disguised? Does this nullify the disguise? Or do you still have to believe they are changing themselves somehow?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

How does this affect someone if their description or outfit is exactly the same, even if disguised? Does this nullify the disguise? Or do you still have to believe they are changing themselves somehow?

Read my post. If you recognize the person, you're allowed to guess.

[Archnon]

It seems the disguise mechanic and the RP around it is really what you make of it. Some characters use disguise to block everyone. Others may reveal the disguise to certain people. In the end, you have to RP it your way and react to others as best you can.

However, if you actually want to stay concealed, keep in mind:
1.) Appearances, clothes and skins are IC information and can be used for RP purposes.
2.) Written descriptions are also IC information can be used for RP purposes.
3.) Cadence and conversation are also IC information and can be used for RP purposes.

You should not use, a.) tells so you can see a player name b.) the in-game player list c.) the portal page. This is all ooc information.

RPing a reaction to points 1-3 is not breaking a rule, it is maintaining immersion. Especially if you run into places that they frequent. If you account for those things when you throw on the disguise tag, then people aren't going to find you out with out that spot check.

However, what is wrong with saying something even as preposterous as "Hey, I know you, you're the Thane". I mean, I can accuse anyone I want of anything in the game, same as in real life. If someone uses these context clues and calls out your disguise without breaking the spot check, especially if you failed at points 1, 2, and 3, then it is on you to react. Challenge them, especially if it is in public. Others may not have spotted the same clues and should react accordingly. Accuse them of hiding something. Call the guards and say they are harassing you. etc.

If you break the disguise of your friend through these clues, go up to them and whisper, "is that you John?" See how they react and react accordingly. Play along, or don't. Get mad at them for hiding something from you. Or harrass them about it next time? Make it public, make it whispers.

RPing on this server is like doing improv. As long as people play their alignment, stay within lore, and keep things immersed, they are legit. For most of these things, it should be a DM and not any player that corrects it. However, in the end, you cannot control how other people RP. You can control how you react and the best reaction, as in improv is always, "Yes, and" to help build the story.

[Glowing Mushroom]

How does this affect someone if their description or outfit is exactly the same, even if disguised? Does this nullify the disguise? Or do you still have to believe they are changing themselves somehow?

Read my post. If you recognize the person, you're allowed to guess.

Thanks.

[Drogo Gyslain]

Since discussing disguise is all the rage, do people consider it meta-gaming if an intelligent or observant character cracks a disguise because they recognise a speech-pattern, or mannerism and just make the connection instead of making the spot check?

Personally, I think if you're playing a smart or observant character then it makes sense that they might cotton to something even if they can't pierce the disguise, but I could be in the minority. Thoughts?

In a huge summary of the discussed, yes.

IF your character is reasonably intelligent, and they pick up on some quirk or mannerism that would identify someone, like the same clothes, speech pattern, etc. Then yes, it would be reasonable to recognize the person. However, The Finesse is in the roleplay.

Just out and blurting it, a-la: *She notices the faint 'e' left off a word.* "YOU'RE (Character X)" is bad form.

Make it interesting. Make it fun! Make it ROLEPLAY.

I don't know how many times I have to say this recently, but roleplay is supposed to be interesting and fun. Learning about others characters, and finding all those little things and figuring someone out is fun. Just blurting out the answer, it can be damaging to someone. OR, it makes your character look like a jerk when you just go and out someone from being in disguise or in stealth. I've had it happen many times where someone just starts talking and yelling at me while I'm in stealth because "oh you shouldn't be in stealth".

Make it interesting, and play nice.

[Thalion]

as someone who uses disguises a lot, i find it infuriating how often people try to force me to break my disguise. to avoid re-writing an entire bio for each situation i keep a few saved for disguises i re-use, and keep a blank one for throwaway disguises. but when im disguised as something simple like "human slave" and using a blank disguise, it astonishes me how often ill get approached with " i dont see a name on your collar, reveal yourself to me or die"

its usually atleast once a day something like this happens, regardless of where i am or what i am disguising as. and none of them ever break it.

[Wuthering]

However, what is wrong with saying something even as preposterous as "Hey, I know you, you're the Thane". I mean, I can accuse anyone I want of anything in the game, same as in real life.

Yeah but I am not sure you can really say anything you want. I think there have to be checks against someone claiming they guessed who's behind the disguise when their character didn't beat the spot check. It's not as easy as it used to be to use OOC mechanics to bust a disguise but there are still ways to do it.

Even if you do have a clue, like they left up their actual description, I'd say be sporting and let them know in a tell instead of using that as a gotcha (unless they really deserve it for trolling or don't ever bother to change it or something, I guess.) You don't have to play it that way but it's a really easy mistake to make so I'd forgive it myself.

But then I usually don't ever call out a disguise unless the situation demands it, like they attempt a crime. Better to let people incriminate themselves for a while instead of shutting down a scene before it happens.