What if these two skills were reworked?

[the grim yeeter]

yeah, because nwn is a videogame adapted from that ruleset. the ruleset in question doesnt have these, and the usual philosophy is "skill vs skill", "attack roll vs attack roll/AC". from nwnwiki's article on this:

"For example, in pen and paper, disarm is opposed by an attack roll, and the analogies to knockdown (trip and overrun) are opposed by strength checks."

NWN2 works the exact same way as P&P when it comes to Knockdown and Disarm. They got rid of Discipline and managed to pull it off nicely. It's not impossible to implement.

The game also only allows you to bank 5 skill points on level up; any more and you're not allowed to finish leveling up.

It is, admittedly, also a game that stays more true to 3.5. For example, you can't just stack Strength on every piece of gear. Only the highest bonus will count if you were to do so.

This sounds like boomer torture.

Furthermore, "It's not impossible to implement" does not apply to Arelith. Over many years, Arelith's balance have been designed based on all these skill checks from the original game, which means that changing one such mechanic to become the way you describe above, would make for drastic changes in the overall meta (for the worst). A good example is the drastic change that was the lore update, which - even though it will be denied by those who initiated it - has been one of the worst updates Arelith has ever seen when it comes to server balance, building and PvP dynamics, with one of the reasons being that it strongly facilitated shotgun PvP (and in turn, heavily discourages pre-PvP RP).

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

yeah, because nwn is a videogame adapted from that ruleset. the ruleset in question doesnt have these, and the usual philosophy is "skill vs skill", "attack roll vs attack roll/AC". from nwnwiki's article on this:

"For example, in pen and paper, disarm is opposed by an attack roll, and the analogies to knockdown (trip and overrun) are opposed by strength checks."

NWN2 works the exact same way as P&P when it comes to Knockdown and Disarm. They got rid of Discipline and managed to pull it off nicely. It's not impossible to implement.

The game also only allows you to bank 5 skill points on level up; any more and you're not allowed to finish leveling up.

It is, admittedly, also a game that stays more true to 3.5. For example, you can't just stack Strength on every piece of gear. Only the highest bonus will count if you were to do so.

This sounds like boomer torture.

Furthermore, "It's not impossible to implement" does not apply to Arelith. Over many years, Arelith's balance have been designed based on all these skill checks from the original game, which means that changing one such mechanic to become the way you describe above, would make for drastic changes in the overall meta (for the worst). A good example is the drastic change that was the lore update, which - even though it will be denied by those who initiated it - has been one of the worst updates Arelith has ever seen when it comes to server balance, building and PvP dynamics, with one of the reasons being that it strongly facilitated shotgun PvP (and in turn, heavily discourages pre-PvP RP).

I'd like to take a step back and address this overall sentiment that keeps getting uttered lately, because I've finally put my finger on what it is about the sentiment that bothers me.

Feel whatever you like about the lore update, good, bad, or indifferent. (Me, personally, I'm a traditionalist and would just like to see proper UMD tables and skill checks for scroll uses across the board, with UMD being unlocked from specific classes, but that's neither here nor there).

Claiming that the lore change fostered the shotgun pvp mentality is completely inaccurate. By and large, everyone that was "Gud" at PvP was already looking at the fastest, most efficient results possible in PvP scenarios, because it's not IC to lose any fight on purpose where the result is a massive failure, beatdown, or death on your part, so you do that to the other person as fast as possible.

The only thing the lore change did was give access to the same tactics to those who weren't already "Gud" builders with a 3 level bard, rogue, or assassin dump included in all of their builds.

The mentality never changed, the playing field just leveled, and people realized that the mentality tends to suck when applied on a broader scale.

[strong yeet]

The only thing the lore change did was give access to the same tactics to those who weren't already "Gud" builders with a 3 level bard, rogue, or assassin dump included in all of their builds.

The mentality never changed, the playing field just leveled, and people realized that the mentality tends to suck when applied on a broader scale.

This is probably my least favourite post ever made on these forums and that is quite the feat.

Not only does it manage to be infuriatingly self-satisfied and on a high horse of ludicrous height, it also manages to be staggeringly wrong on both a level of interpreting what it's replying to, and of interpreting changes to how the game works on a very simple and fundamental level.

If your entire takeaway from the enormous gravity of the lore change (whether it's good or bad I don't really care to argue about, because it's not the point) is that "the playing field is now leveled!" then you've probably missed something. Or a couple somethings. Maybe all of them.

Do you honestly believe that NWN's mechanics are now any less opaque or confusing to newcomers than before, or that these nebulous G-U-D players have altogether lost their grasp on things?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The only thing the lore change did was give access to the same tactics to those who weren't already "Gud" builders with a 3 level bard, rogue, or assassin dump included in all of their builds.

The mentality never changed, the playing field just leveled, and people realized that the mentality tends to suck when applied on a broader scale.

This is probably my least favourite post ever made on these forums and that is quite the feat.

Not only does it manage to be infuriatingly self-satisfied and on a high horse of ludicrous height, it also manages to be staggeringly wrong on both a level of interpreting what it's replying to, and of interpreting changes to how the game works on a very simple and fundamental level.

If your entire takeaway from the enormous gravity of the lore change (whether it's good or bad I don't really care to argue about, because it's not the point) is that "the playing field is now leveled!" then you've probably missed something. Or a couple somethings. Maybe all of them.

Do you honestly believe that NWN's mechanics are now any less opaque or confusing to newcomers than before, or that these nebulous G-U-D players have altogether lost their grasp on things?

I don't understand how you drew any of those conclusions from what I was saying, other than that you didn't like what I was saying, honestly.

I don't believe the system of D&D is less opaque or complex. What I do believe, is that every class has access to Lore, with or without building skills, and that 50 is the commonly known, not-opaque score to hit 7th level spells with scrolls. It's plastered all over our forums, it's in a table on the wiki, and "In the year of our Lore" is a common joke in the community.

There's nothing high horse about it. EVERY character in the entire universe has access to the exact same scroll collection by investing in Lore. The argument contested is that the lore change enabled shotgun PvP meta. The only thing the lore change altered was who had access to scrolls, so this argument can logically, without stretching, be correlated to "scroll use = enable shotgun pvp."

Realistically speaking, gaining access to scrolls didn't change the mentality. It just changed the tools people with that mentality had available. I have nothing against the Git Gud crowd in terms of this subject, however, "Gud" builds dip, and "Bad" builds pure, is pretty much an accepted staple mentality. Even after the lore change, this is still the case. Now people who make "bad builds" can still scroll-pvp.

SO, without being on my high horse, and knowing that I didn't benefit from it (the change actually made my casters less desirable from a certain standpoint, since now anyone with 80 lore can hypothetically do the same things my epic level wizard can, while also doing the same things as an epic level cleric and druid), yes, I can say that it is drastically easier to make your "bad build" and still have access to scrolls. Which was the entire point.

How you got me taking some sort of moral high ground out of making an observation that Lore didn't cause shotgun pvp mentality is beyond me. I also engage in shotgun PvP mentality when I hypothetical a scenario. But I'm not ashamed of that- like I said in the previous post, it makes IC sense, and the only exception is if you're intentionally collaborating with another player. (Which SHOULD hopefully be most of the time, and if it's not, that's still a problem with shotgun mentality, NOT lore.)

My post takes a stab at nothing other than people trying to blame Lore for the faults of a player mentality that has existed long before the change, and trying to use that faulty logic to continue to shame a change they don't support rather than accepting it and moving on. You don't see me claiming that my desired UMD-traditionalist views would solve the shotgun mentality, because that's ridiculous. People would just learn different ways to shotgun.

[Basementfellow]

this game's pvp has always sucked, just some people got so good at it that they let the ez wins delude them into thinking otherwise.

[TimeAdept]

My post takes a stab at nothing other than people trying to blame Lore for the faults of a player mentality that has existed long before the change, and trying to use that faulty logic to continue to shame a change they don't support rather than accepting it and moving on. You don't see me claiming that my desired UMD-traditionalist views would solve the shotgun mentality, because that's ridiculous. People would just learn different ways to shotgun.

Objectively incorrect. Almost every single balance change since loremageddon can be directly traced back to consequences of loremageddon's initiation. From the bevy of monk and divine changes and considerations in builds and balance, to every single new class addition being best with, and having to be balanced explicitly around, monk and divine dips (or both), spellsword changes and more. In fact, pretty much the only one that isn't affected by the fallout from loremageddon is Loremaster and HIPS cooldowns.

Everything else can be directly traced back to changes affected by loremageddon, including a push to higher saves all around due to easier gearing because of moves to new classes and monk/divine (which directly feeds into the weakening of wizard in general, along with the timestop change which was done due to non-physical flat dmg classes still being able to effectively execute, and mages being forced to use it do to not being able to use saves, because, see above, a massive upswing in saves due to class dip changes and gearing.... which led to a rise of shadow mages, and their immediate buffing, as the only way a "DC" mage can exist - this lead even MORE towards shotgun PvP because now it's the only way a caster can function - and mostly, now, they don't), a preponderance of monk and divine dips because no one "needs" to take bard and rogue anymore for UMD to get PvP scrolls, a complete drop of weaponmaster (poor saves, takes too many feats, low SP) from almost every build in existence except the EXTREMELY shotgun 16/7/7 barb/fighter wm, or the bard/wm, a meteoric rise in the power of ranged builds that no longer need to worry about UMD and can go pure ranger, AA, or zen archer cleric (with monk or paladin), all of these things directly contributed to a PvP meta that favored as much flat damage as possible, as many attacks as possible, as few "enemy-makes-saves" effects as possible, and as little windup needed as possible. That means your overall meta immediately and hugely skews to divine, monk, barbarian/CoT, and ranged, with the only real truly viable casters being shadowmages or shamans/clerics who super meme out Wisdom.

I have nothing against the Git Gud crowd in terms of this subject, however, "Gud" builds dip, and "Bad" builds pure, is pretty much an accepted staple mentality.

Also flat objectively wrong.

30 druid, 30 Wild Mage, 30 warlock, 30 bard, 30 Hexblade, 30 Swashbuckler, 30 monk (yes), 20 CoT (20 in a prc is pure imho), are all perfectly good and viable builds on Arelith. Hell, a 30 fighter can be perfectly good and viable, as access to a +6 (or +7) weapon beats certain PvP and PvE DRs that a +5 weapon will not, along with having very good all day saves, AB, and AC unreliant on outside buffing due to the number of feats it has and the ease with which it can gear, as well as simply take 4 great STRs in epic.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

My post takes a stab at nothing other than people trying to blame Lore for the faults of a player mentality that has existed long before the change, and trying to use that faulty logic to continue to shame a change they don't support rather than accepting it and moving on. You don't see me claiming that my desired UMD-traditionalist views would solve the shotgun mentality, because that's ridiculous. People would just learn different ways to shotgun.

Objectively incorrect. Almost every single balance change since loremageddon can be directly traced back to consequences of loremageddon's initiation. From the bevy of monk and divine changes and considerations in builds and balance, to every single new class addition being best with, and having to be balanced explicitly around, monk and divine dips (or both), spellsword changes and more. In fact, pretty much the only one that isn't affected by the fallout from loremageddon is Loremaster and HIPS cooldowns.

First things first- I really don't understand how we came to this point. It seems like every time you and some others quote me in a debate of some sort that you're all over the pencil and missing the point, and I have no idea what I ever did to you (other than verbosely and politely debate things I don't agree with you/others about) that provokes this response. You aren't the only one who comes at me this way - it tends to be you and a few others who lean into people (or at least me) the same way in Discord - coincidentally, you may notice I haven't really been using the discord for anything other than casual chatter or meme-jacking for months now. Occasionally, if I'm willing to weather the poo-storm that I know will follow, I'll pop into B&M to ask a suboptimal question of people I happily acknowledge as more savvy than me, knowing that at some point despite the genuinely helpful people who will provide information asked for that I will endure some level of ridicule for my question.

Whatever I've done to you or others to provoke this response, I'm sorry. I genuinely don't know, and maybe that's part of the problem, but it's honestly exhausting that every time I try to make a point you and others seemingly feel the need to crap all over it. I thought we had a pretty decent OOC working relationship years ago when our characters coexisted in Cordor, maybe I missed something, or maybe I'm just misreading your motives and tone.

Let's focus in on the point that you glossed over- I bolded and underlined it. Notice I never once said that the other balance changes that followed couldn't be tied into the lore change in some way. I did say that shotgun pvp pre-dated lore, and I claimed that it will outlive it even if it's changed.

Unless you're arguing that everyone who currently cares and obsesses over numbers and details and how to get the fight over in the fastest way possible in their favor is suddenly going to stop caring and obsessing over those numbers and how to most efficiently body someone when PvP kicks off, your entire point is going out of the way to ignore my actual point so you can add an "Aelryn's wrong," notch to your belt.

I perceive you as an intelligent, well-reasoned individual, and I don't believe you can say that with a straight face. I don't believe anyone that doesn't have the pinkest rose-tinted glasses that I've ever seen in my life can say that with a straight face, and if you genuinely disagree there, then we can agree to disagree with no hard feelings, but my anecdotal experiences tell me that even before the lore changes, and even before EE, the server was, and remains, filled with players that will drop GRuin/G. Missile Swarm on a level 10 character "because actions have consequences." And that's 'fine' and 'within the rules', but it is absolutely and without question Shotgun Mentality.

To be clear, my definition of shotgun mentality is: end the fight as fast as possible, regardless of how fun or unfun the fight is for one or more sides, because losing fights aren't meant to be fun. It has nothing to do with lore. I can happily acknowledge for you that lore makes certain tactics in this mentality more widely accessible, and have already said as much in my previous post.

I will never acknowledge this mentality as a creation of the lore change, because it's been happening for years. When people argue that getting rid of the lore change will fix it, what I hear is that we want to put these tactics back into the hands of a select few willing and able to build by decades-old paradigms, rather than everyone and their brother no matter what their level of build-savvy.

There's probably a solid debate to be had about which of those scenarios is better for the health of the server, but there is no rational debate to be had that the mentality will go away, because it definitively existed before the lore update. And again, my post takes umbrage specifically with people attempting to claim the mentality will go away if the lore change does. If you really believe reverting lore would get rid of shotgun mentality, then my bad for the negative tone I'm taking your post in, but I just don't see how you could possibly feel that way.

I have nothing against the Git Gud crowd in terms of this subject, however, "Gud" builds dip, and "Bad" builds pure, is pretty much an accepted staple mentality.

Also flat objectively wrong.

30 druid, 30 Wild Mage, 30 warlock, 30 bard, 30 Hexblade, 30 Swashbuckler, 30 monk (yes), 20 CoT (20 in a prc is pure imho), are all perfectly good and viable builds on Arelith. Hell, a 30 fighter can be perfectly good and viable, as access to a +6 (or +7) weapon beats certain PvP and PvE DRs that a +5 weapon will not, along with having very good all day saves, AB, and AC unreliant on outside buffing due to the number of feats it has and the ease with which it can gear, as well as simply take 4 great STRs in epic.

Of the classes you mentioned, excepting bard, all have a plethora of custom content tailored to making level 30 versions of these builds stand above where they would stand in vanilla, because dipping is usually a better choice otherwise. 30 bard works great, but plenty of people will tell you that 20 bard is plenty and that you could dip paladin/blackguard/CoT instead for more saves/damage/ac/feats. 30 casters with full caster level tend to work out better as a staple than non-pure casters, except for some feat-based 26/4 combos which are the only way to successfully get AutoQuicken 3 AND hellball on the same build.

30 Fighter can work great. 20/7/3 and 26/4 is still the iconic staple. You're digging into a pretty deep hole for an "Aelryn is wrong" point trying to argue otherwise, and I won't bother defending the reasons why I feel that way- I've literally been being told on discord and the forums for years that pure-classing is a mistake and that there's no reason to try to make it stronger with capstone abilities just because people don't want to learn how to multiclass, like that mentality isn't toxic in and of itself just as badly as claiming optimizers are bad role-players. You can argue this with them if you're invested, but it's still not relevant to my actual point, it's just another chance for you to go "Look, Aelryn's wrong!"

I'm going to do the thread a favor and step out now. You're welcome to hit me up in a DM or a forum PM sometime if you actually want to engage in this on a discussion level rather than get "Aelryn's wrong points" on a public thread, but I won't be holding my breath.

[the grim yeeter]

My post takes a stab at nothing other than people trying to blame Lore for the faults of a player mentality that has existed long before the change, and trying to use that faulty logic to continue to shame a change they don't support rather than accepting it and moving on. You don't see me claiming that my desired UMD-traditionalist views would solve the shotgun mentality, because that's ridiculous. People would just learn different ways to shotgun.

Objectively incorrect. Almost every single balance change since loremageddon can be directly traced back to consequences of loremageddon's initiation. From the bevy of monk and divine changes and considerations in builds and balance, to every single new class addition being best with, and having to be balanced explicitly around, monk and divine dips (or both), spellsword changes and more. In fact, pretty much the only one that isn't affected by the fallout from loremageddon is Loremaster and HIPS cooldowns.

First things first- I really don't understand how we came to this point. It seems like every time you and some others quote me in a debate of some sort that you're all over the pencil and missing the point, and I have no idea what I ever did to you (other than verbosely and politely debate things I don't agree with you/others about) that provokes this response. You aren't the only one who comes at me this way - it tends to be you and a few others who lean into people (or at least me) the same way in Discord - coincidentally, you may notice I haven't really been using the discord for anything other than casual chatter or meme-jacking for months now. Occasionally, if I'm willing to weather the poo-storm that I know will follow, I'll pop into B&M to ask a suboptimal question of people I happily acknowledge as more savvy than me, knowing that at some point despite the genuinely helpful people who will provide information asked for that I will endure some level of ridicule for my question.

Whatever I've done to you or others to provoke this response, I'm sorry. I genuinely don't know, and maybe that's part of the problem, but it's honestly exhausting that every time I try to make a point you and others seemingly feel the need to crap all over it. I thought we had a pretty decent OOC working relationship years ago when our characters coexisted in Cordor, maybe I missed something, or maybe I'm just misreading your motives and tone.

Stop taking things personally. Nothing is "directed at you". It has nothing to do with you. It simply has to do with you (or whoever) being incorrect about something, and with other people caring about Arelith, its balance, the way it is treated and probably most importantly: preventing the spread of misinformation. And yes, when someone is considered to be wrong about something, that someone will likely end up being corrected. This time by multiple people. None of them were bad people for doing so, and there was nothing wrong about the way they did it, either. You're not a victim.

I'm not going to bother replying to the rest of the post, as it's starting to smell like red herring.

[TimeAdept]

what that dude said