A Hero Emerges: Guide to Paladin RP

[Hunter548]

Even when you're convinced you're in the right, murder is still murder,

Actually killing something that is evil-aligned for no personal gain is in fact a good-aligned action

Except Paladins are both Lawful and Good. That is, while killing something evil could be construed as good there are times when it is not in fact lawful. We punish people for crimes they commit not ones we fear they might. For lawful and good the ends do not justify the means. How you defeat evil is just as important as defeating evil.

Lawful upholds a justice system, and favors the truth, and civility (as determined by culture), and mercy. Lawful good where applicable (some faiths make stipulations for not being beholden to laws they find immoral) upholds both the spirit and the letter of the law. For instance, consider a situation where Emily taunts Stan into a fight. Emily then injures Stan and claims self defense. If Stan was a Banite on top chances are everyone will just turn a blind eye. Emily has indeed upheld the letter of the law, but not the spirit. The spirit was meant to offer a means for an honest citizen to protect herself from an aggressor, not to protect an instigator from an aggressor. Emily has committed a lawful neutral action.

I think it is a hard alignment to play. We want to think of it as easy: good versus evil. But, it is more than that. It is complex. Would a paladin protect an alleged murderer from a mob lynching or stand aside, or join with the mob? And if you did choose to protect a right to a trial would you use a threat of violence to obtain it? I'll let you all find your own answer. I do know it is not simply good versus evil though.

Lawful does not mean "obeys the local laws". Otherwise, every vaguely evil country in Faerun could solve all paladin-related problems by making it illegal to be a paladin. A paladin is under no obligation to allow or tolerate the law being used as a shield to protect evil.

[The Rambling Midget]

Personally I think the RP quality goes up when there is a chance of PVP in the mix.
There's stakes, tension and it makes for good dramatics.
Granted there's a balance to maintain to keep it decent.

I absolutely agree with that, and I'm by no means suggesting that Paladins or Good characters in general should avoid altercations, but I do believe that there needs to be a difference in reasoning, which would usually lead those characters to be instigators in the minority of cases. When someone evil is clearly too dangerous to be left alive, Good should feel free to come charging in with lethal intent, but it should come after a meaningful demonstration of evil. Once there, "repent or die" works for me. Offering the option then means that good isn't choosing to kill, evil is choosing to die.

What I'm arguing against is immediately writing off a character as a lost cause, just because they bombed a Detect Evil save or used a Confessor's Quill. A stern talking to or a persuasive beating seems like a more reasonable place to start. The history of Arelith's good vs. evil conflict has involved far too much nuking from orbit.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I've never heard of anyone getting bashed just because they had evil on their character sheet. People tend to view PVP scenarios in a vacuum and ignore everything leading up to it. When people who play as slave catching fiend lovers complain about a Paladin bashing their character in town for "no reason" I take it with a grain of salt.

[Nekonecro]

What I'm arguing against is immediately writing off a character as a lost cause, just because they bombed a Detect Evil save or used a Confessor's Quill. A stern talking to or a persuasive beating seems like a more reasonable place to start. The history of Arelith's good vs. evil conflict has involved far too much nuking from orbit.

That comes under the filling part of the Paladin sandwich I was blathering about.

What it boils down to is that every situation is different and it is forever a balancing act between facilitating RP, creating conflict or bending your character so much that it ends up as a holy pretzel.
No one does it perfect, certainly not I.

A lot of these threads come across as the person saying -I think a paladin should be like this- with everyone else going -no, it should be like this-
Or as simply a one size fits all how to paladin without taking into account all those fun little things that influence a situation.
To shake my own old man stick at the paladin kids, I'm a fan of the "prove you're actually trying redemption and if you mess up then I'm going to fight you" method and there's probably a crowd already forming saying that I'm doing it wrong.

And? That's okay.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I've never heard of anyone getting bashed just because they had evil on their character sheet. People tend to view PVP scenarios in a vacuum and ignore everything leading up to it. When people who play as slave catching fiend lovers complain about a Paladin bashing their character in town for "no reason" I take it with a grain of salt.

I have, by a well respected hin at the time committing the lowbie bashing too, its what drove the characters to become fullfledge banites because the Hin's god "told him to smite them" when he detect evil some low level plebs, these same characters later on followed hoar instead thanks to another more philosophical LG character who convinced them Bane wasnt the path or vengeance/justice that they truly sought.

Now that we have haks, detect evil should be reworked to only work on higher level evil characters, no saves, but with an added spell (on more than one list and wandable) that can hide one's alignment. A low level paladin who accidentally uses it on something like an epic blackgaurd would get stunned on the spot if the blackgaurd was not masking their presence as it would overwhelm the paladin.

[Naiinara]

Lawful upholds a justice system, and favors the truth, and civility (as determined by culture), and mercy. Lawful good where applicable (some faiths make stipulations for not being beholden to laws they find immoral) upholds both the spirit and the letter of the law.

Lawful does not mean "obeys the local laws". Otherwise, every vaguely evil country in Faerun could solve all paladin-related problems by making it illegal to be a paladin. A paladin is under no obligation to allow or tolerate the law being used as a shield to protect evil.

Yes, I made exception to that, the phrase in parentheses above. (some faiths make stipulations for not being beholden to laws they find immoral). I put it here again. I don't know any faiths that don't make exceptions, but at the time I was thinking Ilmater types might at times choose some different paths. But it does mean obey laws that are not immoral or based in culture. After all I do not see why a good person would knowingly act insulting.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I have, by a well respected hin at the time committing the lowbie bashing too, its what drove the characters to become fullfledge banites because the Hin's god "told him to smite them" when he detect evil some low level plebs, these same characters later on followed hoar instead thanks to another more philosophical LG character who convinced them Bane wasnt the path or vengeance/justice that they truly sought.

Now that we have haks, detect evil should be reworked to only work on higher level evil characters, no saves, but with an added spell (on more than one list and wandable) that can hide one's alignment. A low level paladin who accidentally uses it on something like an epic blackgaurd would get stunned on the spot if the blackgaurd was not masking their presence as it would overwhelm the paladin.

That sounds pretty gross but hopefully such cases are rare and I'm sure the DM's handled it if reported. I agree it'd be cool if -detect_evil was reworked into something more sensible and less metagamey. In my opinion a Paladin should smite someone for their evil deeds, not just because it says evil on their character sheet. Lowbies don't get a pass if they are running around in 63 black with skull helmets and summoned undeads though.

[DangerDolphin]

Paladins should definitely be the hardest class to play. You have the same OOC PvP responsibility as any evil character (roleplay before PvP) but you also have to factor that in with the fact you are playing a GOOD person who has many non-selfish concerns. This includes:
- What if I'm wrong and this person isn't evil after all, maybe they were coerced into hanging out with bad people, what if they're trying to stop the bad people
- Killing another human being is traumatic - especially if it's premeditated and not just in self defense
- Could attacking this person in the middle of the town start a battle in which bystanders would be killed or injured

Then you have to factor in the fact that you're LAWFUL, which brings up a whole bunch of other problems:
- My CN best friend just killed someone that we both think is bad, but that person was not persona non grata, so they just committed murder and it's my duty to bring them in for a trial now
- I strongly suspect X is a necromancer/demon summoner, but I believe in the rule of law, I should try to gather evidence and bring them in alive rather than just killing them on sight
- I technically have no legal authority in this settlement, so attacking someone who I cannot prove is persona non grata would be illegal and assault

Obviously, this wouldn't apply if you were in an evil settlement or had a demonic chancellor, but that's generally not the case on the Surface.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I’m kind of shocked that someone thinks that just because someone is evil means you can kill them.

Shocked. Shocked I tell you.

In reality that is certainly what a good majority of characters do. Honestly I think we should get some hard rulings from our dear leader about what exactly is a justified good on evil killing.


I dont think anyone disagrees that if you summon a balor in town or walk about with the corpses of larry moe and curly in tow that a good longswordin' is on the way.


But if forgotten realms, you can be born of an alignment. Is murdering someone who has the potential to do evil, yet hasnt done any actual evil in the world a good act simply because their soul is bound for avernus?

I personally think the debate could only truely be settled by an actual hardline stance that says "in this setting, doing X means that a paladin would be justified/not justified in killing you"

Doesnt have to be a list of dos and donts. But DMs in PnP often make a call that in their setting, as the shaper of that reality, a paladin will fall if they do X.


Now if a paladin hears a rumor that someone is a Warlock, they detect evil and its there. Is it a "goodly" action to slay that person? Yes/no?

Is slaying an evil person in general, with no immediate benefit of that slaying a goodly act? Yes/no

Is slaying a member of a faction that has a troublesome history in the chance of weakening it for fear that trouble may rise again a goodly act? Yes/No


I think these three questions in my opinion are no entirely.

But the only one that could put that debate at ease is the shaper of our reality.

Whether or not they are goodly acts also doesnt take agency from the player. Plenty of paladins may choose their own reasoning to why they slay whom they slay. But I think many, often too many, operate under the assumption that to slay any evil is a good act in and of itself, and that assumption leads to a delusion of legitimacy.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Its not so much that the laws restrict them, more so they believe the principle of the laws are considered to be for the greater good. Like fair trials help prevent innocent from being wrongfully trialed.

[three wolf moon]

I've never heard of anyone getting bashed just because they had evil on their character sheet. People tend to view PVP scenarios in a vacuum and ignore everything leading up to it. When people who play as slave catching fiend lovers complain about a Paladin bashing their character in town for "no reason" I take it with a grain of salt.

I have, by a well respected hin at the time committing the lowbie bashing too, its what drove the characters to become fullfledge banites because the Hin's god "told him to smite them" when he detect evil some low level plebs, these same characters later on followed hoar instead thanks to another more philosophical LG character who convinced them Bane wasnt the path or vengeance/justice that they truly sought.

Thanks for making my prediction come true, friend. If you will recall:

These threads never go well. People have already started insinuating that "Lawful" anything has anything to do with the law of any given place and not the character itself. Soon, a Batman alignment meme will be posted, people will be called bad paladins indirectly, and so on. There have been many threads like this, probably none of them have been productive; and it's been that way since the inception of the server.

There's the passive-aggressive shade thrown, now we just need a batman meme for "Arelith Paladin Thread Bingo."

[DM Rex]

It's that time of the thread again.

Let's worry less about preaching to other players and just instead focus on our own roleplay.
See a paladin not really doing things very paladiny? Send in a report, we'll take care of it. That's what we're here for.

To simplify a few things, lawful does not mean obedient. It means someone with some kind of code.
A lawful good paladin may always try to make a woman smile because he serves a deity partial to that sort of thing. A lawful character is not expected to follow all the rules presented to them, and in fact due to oaths or orders may even go against the law of a given town, country, or region. This is encouraged.

And as for anything to pass without a save?
On a level of likelihood from 0 - 10.
Absolutely not.