Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

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Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Petrifictus » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:48 am

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Chronomancy

Would such magic be possible in Arelith?
How could we make it work?
Could DMs make it work?

Timetravels and idea of ”what ifs” always has drawn interest to me, something I would wish to consider using in my roleplay. Imagine if there would be chance to undo or change things that your characters experienced, be it wrongfully or rightfully.

Like what if Wotan Woodberry would be able to stop his ill downfall from bad blood and blackpaint? How that would affect in timeline? Would it be temporary or permament?

Thoughts? Would be fun plot/element to play with.
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:07 am

There is Arelith precedent for the concept of time travel. Someone's previous character concept involved it - and they wrote a book about it. I suspect their may have been past DM plots involving it, but whether that involved the Grandfather concept / altering timelines I could not say.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:22 am

Time travel happens all the time in Arelith, and often completely by accident. Just the other day my dwarf was finishing his 15th pint and (in what seemed like a blink of an eye) three days had passed and he had a raging headache. None of the other lads he was with could remember what had happened in that time neither!

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Xarge VI » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:52 am

My advice is keep it vague. Spew theories all you want but avoid emoting it and keep your descriptions vague enough to allow other people and yourself to wonder if your dude is just delusional.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Kuma » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:58 am

Xarge VI wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:52 am
My advice is keep it vague. Spew theories all you want but avoid emoting it and keep your descriptions vague enough to allow other people and yourself to wonder if your dude is just delusional.
as someone who had a char that was heavily involved in this stuff; this is the best approach. i somewhat regret normalising it for a while.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Petrifictus » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:48 am

But it would be possible? Like wipe out some bad event and have others roll with it?
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:18 pm

Not really. If it isn't mechanically supported, people are in no way, shape or form obligated to play along if they don't want to.

Whether or not people play along depends heavily on:
-Your presentation
-How enjoyable it is for others
-How much sense it makes
-How much apparent thought/effort you put into it

Chronomancy is something I only vaguely encountered IG; emphasis on vaguely. I never tried to pull it off, as I had a hard time coming up with things that were both believable AND gave me some leeway in case someone decided not to play along.

You might be able to show some mechanical representation of dabbling in it with things like timestop, haste, or slow. Flat out reversing time or events would be something I'd avoid.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:17 pm

Time travel magic does exist in FR, but it's strictly forbidden by a decree from Mystra herself.
We'd be talking about "old magic" (pre fall of Netheril) in this case ...and while such magic is present even on Arelith (everything Myon for example), it would have most likely originated from som magical object as noone would have been able to recreate said magic for some time now

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Kuma » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:21 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:17 pm
We'd be talking about "old magic" (pre fall of Netheril) in this case ...and while such magic is present even on Arelith (everything Myon for example), it would have most likely originated from som magical object as noone would have been able to recreate said magic for some time now
youre conflating a mythal with a mythallar, myon has nothing to do with "old magic" as you put it. unless i'm deeply mistaken.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:00 pm

Well, lorewise all mythallars were destroyed as a result of Krassus's folly, but saying that mythal is functinally Arelith's version of the same thing that just wasn't destryed would not really be such a stretch now, would it?

But I agree that the above is probably best left unanswered and left to IC speculations. Doesn't really matter anyway as the topic's focused on time travel.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by BHR55 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:11 pm

Mythal's can be created and restored after Karsus's Folly by elven high mages. Typically it involves the soul of one of these mages becoming part of the spell, sort of like living magic. In the case of Evereska their Mythal is powered/maintained by the surrounding life in the Forest.

A Mythallar is different as Kuma already said.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:18 pm

How does Myon float then? I'm not nitpicking, just always assumed that a custom version of mythallar was involved somehow.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Kuma » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:25 pm

the mythal. they're totally different and capable of amazing feats of magic.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm

Yeah, mythallars are created through 10th level spells (No longer possible after Mystra's ban - and no, epic spells like Hellball etc aren't 10th level spells. They're similar, but not the same), while mythals are created through Elven High Magic (Which is a seperate semi-divine magic specific to the elves) and were inspired by the Netherese mythallar if I remember correctly, but aren't the same thing and function differently.

I wouldn't put any stock in that wiki article, it's worth noting. It's all old 2e lore, when haste/slow etc were chronomantic effects (IE, they affected your life span). This is not the case anymore with 3e lore. I'd be pretty careful and wary with roleplaying chronomancy, too. Keep it subtle and non-definite.
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Flower Power » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:31 pm

Elven usage of mythals predates the Netherese Mythallar by 22,000 years.

Mythals are magical fields created as a result of Elven High Magic rituals; they're specifically just fields of magical energy that apply enchantments over a large area (like levitating a city [like Myon], or making an area constantly temperate and spring-like [like Myth Drannor]). They can also break the rules of magic and cause entire schools of magic to no longer function as they should. They do not always, but often can, require the sacrifice of the lives of one or more of their makers. True mythals are no longer feasible in the setting because, as of 1372, there's about a half dozen High Mages left in the world and they've all agreed to take no further students and to hide away all tomes and books of knowledge of High Magic - ending the art forever. Smaller-scale mythals can be created by Epic-level mages of all races, but typically requires vast expenditure of both material wealth and personal lifeforce (i.e., EXP cost for creating the seeds of epic spells) to power them.

Mythallars are just giant magical batteries that tap directly into the Weave and siphon off vast quantities of magic, which is then used to power various magical devices (like making an entire city fly.) Mythallars project a 1-mile radius 'field' of magical power around them, and allowed the Netherese to create 'quasimagical items' - enchanted items that only functioned within the 1-mile radius surrounding a mythal. While these items could be powerful magical artifacts, they were more often just things like magical roombas to make the commonfolk happy.

Chronomancy exists but Mystra forbids its practice. Of course - there's more than one Weave now, isn't there?
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by BHR55 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:30 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:31 pm
Elven usage of mythals predates the Netherese Mythallar by 22,000 years.

Mythals are magical fields created as a result of Elven High Magic rituals; they're specifically just fields of magical energy that apply enchantments over a large area (like levitating a city [like Myon], or making an area constantly temperate and spring-like [like Myth Drannor]). They can also break the rules of magic and cause entire schools of magic to no longer function as they should. They do not always, but often can, require the sacrifice of the lives of one or more of their makers. True mythals are no longer feasible in the setting because, as of 1372, there's about a half dozen High Mages left in the world and they've all agreed to take no further students and to hide away all tomes and books of knowledge of High Magic - ending the art forever. Smaller-scale mythals can be created by Epic-level mages of all races, but typically requires vast expenditure of both material wealth and personal lifeforce (i.e., EXP cost for creating the seeds of epic spells) to power them.

Mythallars are just giant magical batteries that tap directly into the Weave and siphon off vast quantities of magic, which is then used to power various magical devices (like making an entire city fly.) Mythallars project a 1-mile radius 'field' of magical power around them, and allowed the Netherese to create 'quasimagical items' - enchanted items that only functioned within the 1-mile radius surrounding a mythal. While these items could be powerful magical artifacts, they were more often just things like magical roombas to make the commonfolk happy.

Chronomancy exists but Mystra forbids its practice. Of course - there's more than one Weave now, isn't there?
It doesn't help that yet more High mages also die during 1372, and another gives their life to restore one of these Mythal's.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Aardra » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:59 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
Yeah, mythallars are created through 10th level spells (No longer possible after Mystra's ban - and no, epic spells like Hellball etc aren't 10th level spells. They're similar, but not the same), while mythals are created through Elven High Magic (Which is a seperate semi-divine magic specific to the elves) and were inspired by the Netherese mythallar if I remember correctly, but aren't the same thing and function differently.

I wouldn't put any stock in that wiki article, it's worth noting. It's all old 2e lore, when haste/slow etc were chronomantic effects (IE, they affected your life span). This is not the case anymore with 3e lore. I'd be pretty careful and wary with roleplaying chronomancy, too. Keep it subtle and non-definite.
Mythals are created by multiple high mages casting 10th level spells that are semi-divine in nature, but hellball et al are absolutely 10th level, too. And Mystra's ban was on 11th and 12th circle spells specifically (Karsus' Folly was the only 12th level spell ever cast in FR lore iirc) and even in canon it's not a strict ban. Mystra just wants mortals to THINK they're impossible to cast. ;)
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by TheRoyalMagus » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:23 am

Bringing this back on topic.

I've played a handful of epic level Wizards and a couple have been around others that looked into Time Manipulation and even set up player made situations trying to create such things. Granted, this was all with specifically designed fixtures and using magic circles and was really cool to see the effort put into it. Though, the two times I recall, by two separate people both had a DM intervene and add some special effects to the 'casting'.

And both times failed in spectacular fashion. Which, to me, was way more entertaining.

So, you could always try and set up some sort of ritual and gather people and try and come up with awesome and creative ways to tr and do something in localized setting. Like, go to a ruined city and see if you can turn back time in a small area and see what happens! Get a DM and a handful or more of other players that contributed involved and let the shenanigans ensue!

The building up to such grand things has always been more fun for me than the actual outcome.

Good luck on your own folly! :)

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Skibbles » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:47 am

I'd short in short: yes.

Like all RP magic it has to obey some of the unwritten laws of player agency such as not telling someone you time traveled and killed their parents.

Take it light and easy. Make its effects subtle or mysterious.

Ultimately I'd say treat any and all chronomancy as you would anything else if you have zero DM assistance and you'll probably be well and clear.
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Petrifictus » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:23 am

Might look into this someday with possible. future RP/characters. Thought this as fine RP tool to undo things that were done by OOC reasons than IC.

Beside idea of time travels and ”what if-stories” has always been fun to witness.
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Kuma » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:07 am

Petrifictus wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:23 am
Thought this as fine RP tool to undo things that were done by OOC reasons than IC.
n-


no.


what

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Petrifictus » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:37 pm

Kuma wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:07 am
Petrifictus wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:23 am
Thought this as fine RP tool to undo things that were done by OOC reasons than IC.
n-


no.


what
What I mean is that if some things have been allowed to be ignored due to not wanting to deal with them, such as conflict and backlash, thus decided by group OOC that they ”never happended,” why it would not be fine IC use time magic to fix things, etc.?
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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by -XXX- » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:02 pm

We don't need IC mechanics to deal with OOC issues. That sort of thing would fall into the DM competence.

As for time travel - it can be a bit iffy as it's a good way of writing yourself into a corner. It renders all stakes completely non-existent for example ...and that's only one of the plethora of problems that it introduces.
Furthermore, it's unsupported, so other players can 100% treat the would be time traveler as an insane person with no special powers whatsoever. Working from there, a misguided lunatic possessing some sort of information that could only be explained by time travel can be seen as metagaming.

TBH, this is one of the concepts that I personally would be very reluctant to attempt without having a DM holding my hand. That being said, I got the impression that Arelith DMs weren't all too keen on doing that, but clearly that's up to them to decide.

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Kuma » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:09 pm

Petrifictus wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:37 pm
What I mean is that if some things have been allowed to be ignored due to not wanting to deal with them, such as conflict and backlash, thus decided by group OOC that they ”never happended,” why it would not be fine IC use time magic to fix things, etc.?
because that's a terrible idea and shouldn't be supported

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Re: Chronomancy/Time Magic: Is it possible?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:29 pm

Petrifictus wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:37 pm

What I mean is that if some things have been allowed to be ignored due to not wanting to deal with them, such as conflict and backlash, thus decided by group OOC that they ”never happended,” why it would not be fine IC use time magic to fix things, etc.?
I would very much like to know a specific example of where you think this would be a good idea.
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