Looking at the sorcerer on Arelith.

[Knick]

Disclaimer: Sorcerer is my favorite class, wizard at a close second, as such I've only had one character that wasn't one of these classes in the two years I've been on Arelith (3sorc/3wiz/1WM-build). And with regards to some of the lore behind it, some of it of course applies to bards as well, since the classes are related lore-wise.

Sorcerer is severely lacking. Or rather wizard just makes it obsolete. I've honestly been fine with this, sorcerer was still my favorite class, I love the mythical nature of a powerful sorcerer, how they simply believe enough in their arcane birthright, that they can become near-demi-gods. Yeah, I'm a fan.

But learning the Arelith-wiki and all the craftables took a while, and I only now realize that sorcerer has no craftable armor which grants spellslots (I'm choosing to ignore Inception of Nightmares, which is evil only and shared with wizard + wizard still gets an upgrade). I wonder if it was an oversight? Sorcerer is the only caster class without such an item. Wizard has access to two non-alignment restricted robes + Inception of Nightmares.

In terms of mechanics, for me the class identity for sorcerer is basically: lots of spells, an indominable belief in their own power, they know that they are a being of magic. As a wild elf this might be expected and revered, as a kobold it is common knowledge and for some a personal journey akin to a pilgrimage. But to the "common" races, to a human? A halfling, or an orc? In such a world you are in fact suddenly very different. All the other (basic) classes make sense to commoners. The other classes have trained or studied, been granted their power by the gods and so forth. A sorcerer is a born miracle in itself, a potential little deity, a freak or mutant in other places, but definitely different.

On to suggestions for discussion.

I'd love for the class to gain access to some (bonus) Spell Penetration feats (or SP scaling with sorc. levels). I imagine it would have a relatively low impact gameplay-wise on the server as a whole. And I think it would really strengthen the mythos of sorcerer who just refuses to believe that there is something their magic cannot do. I'm really not about spamming the class with meta-magic feats though, that should remain wizards' thing, since we're preserving class identities and all. I've made an example of a robe I think might make sense to re-establish class identity (As well as using the class skill changes already implemented).

Mantle of the Ascended Innatist

Bonus Spell Slot: Sorcerer Level 6
Bonus Spell Slot: Sorcerer Level 7
Bonus Spell Slot: Sorcerer Level 8

Charisma +2

Skill Bonus: Concentration +3
Skill Bonus: Spellcraft +3
Skill Bonus: Bluff +3
Skill Bonus: Persuade +3

Sorcerers have the most spells now, as more or less, their only advantage, but all other casters are given a decent chance to level the playing-field, which seems a shame. I'll keep playing sorcerers though, don't worry.

Thoughts? Am I missing something about the class, is it about max. IGMS? Or has it just been a bit neglected?

Oh, final tidbit. Should pixie familiar be banned? I honestly wouldn't mind (even if that yet again makes wizard better than sorc with more skillpoints to spare for picklock skill-dumps and such). Is it a non-issue? Or do I lack disciplin in picking the pixie every time? But it would also help preserve rogues' class identity, and stop the pixie slave trade.

(edits: typos/bad English)

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Sorcerers are really strong because they have the most spell slots, and aren't reliant on preparing spellbooks.

Need to spam Mords? You got it.

Need to spam IGMS? You got it.

Need to spam Thunderclap? You got it.

A wizard might have 1 of each in supply, and maybe with the right preparation, can have multiples prepared for a pinch. Sorcerers actually have more situational flexibility in terms of "encounters" than a wizard because of how spontaneous spellcasting works.

Wizards, however, have a greater flexibility as a whole. Through both feats, and INT giving more skill points. However, they have to be really adept at navigating their spellbook, but even then - they can't simultaneously lose a spell to insta-cast something they need in the moment. Sorcerers, however, while confined to a small spell selection, really are versatile.

I suppose the biggest complaint about sorcerers is that they pigeon-hole you into a div-dip (blackguard or paladin), which is annoying. They don't have a class they can splash that is complimentary from a spellcasting perspective like the wizards do with ranger (although I suppose they can also go 26 sorc/4 ranger).

And while Charisma doesn't give you skillpoints, you can become a nifty -disguiser because of your RAW charisma score and the fact you have access to Bluff.

(If I were to buff sorcerers, I'd buff Persuade to do something meaningful, but maybe that's another topic)

[Knick]

I concede that the ability to spontaneously applying 6 Mord's (or the like) fits the flavour well, and is indeed very powerful.

I'd would however, like to reiterate this:

But learning the Arelith-wiki and all the craftables took a while, and I only now realize that sorcerer has no craftable armor which grants spellslots (I'm choosing to ignore Inception of Nightmares, which is evil only and shared with wizard + wizard still gets an upgrade). I wonder if it was an oversight? Sorcerer is the only caster class without such an item. Wizard has access to two non-alignment restricted robes + Inception of Nightmares.

The only armour that really makes sense for a non-evil sorcerer, barring autostill feats, is Royal Outfit (+1ac, +5 persuade, +2 cha). Which feels very sad for an epic level sorcerer, especially compared to the very powerful Grand Magi's Robes. There's armor of Immolation too but that's still very meh and not relevant to the class per se, also EMA makes the improved armor obsolete.

[Hazard]

Pure class cookie?

[Kalopsia]

I concede that the ability to spontaneously applying 6 Mord's (or the like) fits the flavour well, and is indeed very powerful.

I'd would however, like to reiterate this:

But learning the Arelith-wiki and all the craftables took a while, and I only now realize that sorcerer has no craftable armor which grants spellslots (I'm choosing to ignore Inception of Nightmares, which is evil only and shared with wizard + wizard still gets an upgrade). I wonder if it was an oversight? Sorcerer is the only caster class without such an item. Wizard has access to two non-alignment restricted robes + Inception of Nightmares.

The only armour that really makes sense for a non-evil sorcerer, barring autostill feats, is Royal Outfit (+1ac, +5 persuade, +2 cha). Which feels very sad for an epic level sorcerer, especially compared to the very powerful Grand Magi's Robes. There's armor of Immolation too but that's still very meh and not relevant to the class per se, also EMA makes the improved armor obsolete.

Have a look at Armor of Immolation. It's really good for sorcerers.

2CHA, +5 Discipline, no spell failure, and 50% cold/fire immunity whenever you need it.

[Skibbles]

Armor of Immolation is crazy good. One of the best class outfits.

[Ryudo]

Going by the wiki it does seem a little unfair that the sorc staff in crafting is only a +1 to cha, despite that the other staffs all give +2 to wis or int to the other caster classes.

[Kuma]

Going by the wiki it does seem a little unfair that the sorc staff in crafting is only a +1 to cha, despite that the other staffs all give +2 to wis or int to the other caster classes.

that staff has bonus spell slots

it is REALLY not hard to max out charisma as a sorc.

[-XXX-]

Meanwhile, I keep finding these Shukenja Helmets all over the place...

[The Rambling Midget]

And Rings of the Wanderer. (or whatever that sorc slot ring is called)

[Knick]

Armor of Immolation is crazy good. One of the best class outfits.

Maybe I underestimate it, I admit. I never was too good at the character optimizing and whatnot. It still feels like an odd item, and not something that immediately makes me think "That's an end-game sorcerer's robe". Unlike the Arch-Priest's Duty, Grand Magi's Robes, Ranger's runic vestment or Jester's Jubilant Attire. All of those items are also craftable and accessible on the wiki, armor of immolation is not. (edit: Its under light armor it seems, the more you know I guess. But an armor that require armor proficiency still isn't an obvious in the same way, as the robes that the other casters can simply put on.)

Meanwhile, I keep finding these Shukenja Helmets all over the place...

And Rings of the Wanderer. (or whatever that sorc slot ring is called)

They offer level 1-3/4 spells? Also seems very meh. But yes they exist, and are not without use. But having three of these equipped means 4 less Charisma, and 3 fewer slots to use for the purpose. So, so your have Staff (+1cha), Armor (+2 cha), Boots (+1 cha), Cloak (+1 cha), Bracers (+2 cha, with ada), belt (+1 cha) and amulet (+2 cha), leaving us at +10 Cha. Which is higher than I thought it'd be when I started writing that, I admit. But the point stands. This usually means you'll have a modifier of +13 instead of +14, that is one less level 2 spell a day and one less level 6 spell. And a lower DC (that can be remedied with Eagles or Skleen, true, but still...) For overall a lot of extra low level spells? Losing out on skillpoints from items in a class which already lacks them, as well. Being able to cast two or three extra Bull's Strength and Mage Armor a day, just doesn't seem too relevant later on when everyone has the potions and wands already, and are fighting Balors? I'd rather just have the level 6 slot and skillpoints It would usually also mean less constitution.

[Kuma]

Armor of Immolation is crazy good. One of the best class outfits.

Maybe I underestimate it, I admit. I never was too good at the character optimizing and whatnot. It still feels like an odd item, and not something that immediately makes me think "That's an end-game sorcerer's robe". Unlike the Arch-Priest's Duty, Grand Magi's Robes, Ranger's runic vestment or Jester's Jubilant Attire. All of those items are also craftable and accessible on the wiki, armor of immolation is not.

its under light armour

[Skibbles]

Armor of Immolation comes with 5 discipline (that's half the epic discipline feat, which could save you an epic feat). 10 Fire resist is very nice. 2 Cha is good. Infinite fire shield. +4 armor. Even one base armor class too.

I'm not sure how it isn't endgame compared to those other armors that have a very similar load out. Ranger vestment is +4 armor and +2 str, and... that's about it. Though it's fair to say +4 armor is better for a class that can't get epic mage armor.

You also forgot ring x2 for +2 cha total. Giving you full 12 modifier without needing eagle's splendor. Awesome.

Editing to add that the main difference between wizard and sorcerer is toolbox versus power. Wizards have a big toolbox in the form of the Epic Focus feats and what they bring, but if we're honest with ourselves at least 70% of arcane spells are not useful at all.

That's where a sorcerer comes in. With some serious epic charisma focus you can just have one or two spells to solve every problem.

[-XXX-]

I would assume that the reason behind less sorcerer-tailored craftable items is the number of +2 cha craftable items tailored for other classes.

- ruby necklace
- blackguard' helmet
- crown of domination
- royal outfit
- the aforementioned armor of immolation

I always thought that is why the staff of the arcane locust granted only +1cha, as opposed to its counterparts that give a +2 to the primary caster stat - to balance this out.

[Knick]

I thought rings of the wanderer didn't give charisma? Did I just forget? But you all seem more than fine with AoI for sorcerer, I guess I'll get me one of those.

[-XXX-]

Aditionally, while extra spell slot properties might be good for a vanilla sorcerer, they literally do nothing for a true flamer (other than making items that already give them only fractional utility virtually impossible to enchant any further).

Paths should be a consideration when designing gear - you can't just take wizard engame equipment, copy/paste it for a sorcerer and call it a day. Flavor and variety can matter IMO, even if it's just numbers in this case.

[Skibbles]

I must have missed over the idea of wearing the 1-4 sorcerer rings. Personally I'd recommend a hard pass on those, since those spells aren't generally as useful as squeezing out maybe a single circle 6 with two more CHA. Plus if you wear dweomercraft rings you can have CON and some skills on them as well.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

You also get the most out Lantanese Rings (+1 Cha, and +1 Regeneration), which is just a nice side bonus. They can be a whole avenue for your Runic endeavours.

[Hazard]

I think it would be cool if sorcs got a path that gave bonuses to a specific school, based on level.
So you have some inherent talent for a school granting +2 dc at level 10, +2 at 20, and another +2 at 30.. and maybe a small % chance to not use a spellslot when casting spells from that school.

So a pure 30 could grab +12 DC (6 from sorc path, 6 from ESF), making it pretty dangerous even in our current save meta.

I've given this about 3 minutes of thought, but it SOUNDS cool. That's what really matters.
Probably falls into either category A: Stupidly OP, or category B: Still bad and dumb.

[Skibbles]

Category: iceberg reflex save without spellcraft DC 50+

[Hazard]

Category: iceberg reflex save without spellcraft DC 50+

yee
>:)

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Sorc is really good on Arelith, especially with a paladin or blackguard dip. It has lots of spell slots, lots of really good gear options, can easily get AC in the mid 60's with concealment on top of that which means they'll be hard for a lot of people to even hit, and between Gate and its familiar it basically comes with a free pocket rogue and several WM's. A well played Sorc can solo most of the content on this server and easily farm for runic materials and other rare items. I do not think Sorc needs anymore gear or buffs or anything. Maybe some sorcerer bloodlines like dragon, fey, etc. for RP fluff would be nice but it doesn't need to be that powerful mechanically. Perhaps just Resist 10 to one energy type or something.

[Ork]

Mages aren't looking so hot, and sorc are probably worse off than most. I'd probably place them slightly above a regular wizard. Reason? Kill pressure. Mages have none. With the timestop nerf, mages have no dependable nukes save for perfect fate from the Wild Mage line, which sorcs can't use.

[Hazard]

You're still able to timestop and apply a bunch of effects, like bigby's hands, web, incendiary cloud, dispel/breach and then let loose with missiles/iceberg/wombocombo/all of the above and more once the timestop ends.

Those effects won't do anything DURING the timestop, but the moment it ends they will start working. Except for the dispel, it's totally possible to dispel people during timestop.

[Ork]

With the way things are currently, all of those debuffs (if saved) won't put the enemy into critical shape. When crit potions heal 180 HP per round, you're going to struggle to keep damage on an opponent that they won't just shrug off the next round. It's even worse if they have heal potions that go for 240 HP per round.