How to be a Fun Villain

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Zavandar
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Zavandar » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:55 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:58 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:18 pm
Anime Sword Fighter wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:46 pm
good god i wish we could retire team good vs team evil discourse
amen
The real discourse is about team selfish vs team generous here.

Praying instead of talking rarely solves difference of opinions.
let's not reduce the server to 2 factions

would you prefer if I said qft instead?

anyway this attitude is part if what makes it hard to be a villain (and a hero). dont let yourself be trapped in a team. you're an individual and there are many more sides to play than just 2. You're going to be a protagonist in some people's stories, an antagonist in others, and a background character in some people's too. I recommend against coming into the server with "I want to be x for y" because 1. rp will often take you way off those rails and 2. you might find yourself hamfisting your intentions in where they're not appropriate.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by strong yeet » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:18 pm

Petrifictus wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:02 pm
Also to the winners: try making loss fun too for the loser, making it fun is not only responsibility of the loser. It hurts a lot when player get a bitter taste of defeat and being treated ”not deserving a cool ending.”
Agreed wholeheartedly. It's important to make the other side feel Important, and not like they're just "laughable punching bags who are weak and dumb" or "stupid and annoying mean people out to ruin my RP." Acknowledge that the other side is a force, is somebody worth antagonising, that they're a relevant part of your story and the server's story as a collective whole.

Do this out of character, obviously, but also in game; as an example of what I mean, I think it's very easy to make the distinction between somebody portraying a character who is angry, and someone who is angry portraying that emotion through their character.

This, somehow, is surprisingly rare. Too bad -- it's rewarding on either end.

Consider it this way: would you be more tempted to portray meaningful consequence out of your character's defeat if he was killed after a lowercased phrase of two or three words, or after a long series of events? To somebody who regularly made you (the player) feel like your character was more the butt of a joke than the cool paladin/scary orc/wise elf you were trying to portray, or to somebody who told people how dangerous you were, and how it was important to take your guy seriously?

This is both for "heroes" and "villains"; dealing with foes who act one way and those who act the other is a night and day difference. That's my two cents, anyway. Lots of good advice in this thread overall, especially from Seven, Xerah, Ork, D4wn and Zav.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:36 pm

Be very friendly and amicable while doing cartoonishly evil things. Talk wistfully about how difficult the first raised corpse was to maintain and how easy it is now while defiling the grave of someone's loved one/while asking them how their day has been so far.

Characters who know they are evil and still do evil things are cool and fun if done well, but friendly evil is also just as enjoyable to interact with because the contrast between how Snuggle a Bugbear creepy what they're doing is and how nice they are while doing it stands out.

Watch videos about kreia then misunderstand her message and take it more selfishly than was intended on purpose. Watch clips of palpatine, gul'dan, campy weirdos you like. Figure out what it is you like about villainous characters and form a fake philosophy around it! Dismantle how cool they are on a surface level and try to figure out what their thought process is.

All of these together and the understanding that you need to make the rp fun for the people you're messing with IC should help you to get it right. Also you WILL screw up your first villain. Thats ok, roll them and try again later when you've learned all you can from them. And when people tell you that the villain is meant to lose...

It's only meaningful when the heel loses if he's given the face 365 days of torment
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Nekonecro » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:28 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:27 pm
Just look no farther than PEST CONTROL's statement for evidence - villain characters are expected to lose and roll by default.
This is incorrect IMO - just because there's a rich list of fantastic villains who went this route doesn't mean it's the only way.
Mesmer, Vippin, Valtheran, Nyhmax, Jel, Ann Thrule, Asen, Gravelle.... these were all great antagonists who weren't exactly (in)famous for losing.
Hi! Player of Ann Thrule here.
Just want to let you know for all the times that character was known for winning she had at least 5 to 10 ideas and plots where she lost or it fizzled out before they got anywhere.
She most certainly lost more than she won anything, just that when she did win she hammed it up really big to overshadow those failures.

My advice for playing a villain? well it's all from my experiences and opinions but:

1- Make sure your RP reflects your build; if you're playing the hard guy you need to have a build able to fufill that role. If you have something suboptimal? you may be better off playing someone more weasel like that's willing to run or bargain for your life. Unfortunately no one respects or fears a character that talks big but loses out on any fight (perhaps slightly contrivertial of an opinion to have but I don't believe in the seperation of mechanics and RP)

2 - As a counterpoint to above, if you are playing a pvp strong build and you're playing it well? Make sure you are aware of this and offer the opposition plenty of other means and opportunities to deal with your character in other ways.
Going back again to Ann Thrule, she was a mellee PM which at the time was a -massively- OP build to have back then. Knowing this I tried to keep PVP as a last resort and almost never initiated it. One of my favourite memories of the character was reading a board describing tactical threats to the island and her entry was simply "Don't. Try diplomacy" which I always allowed people to try and talk their way out or talk Ann into something.

3 - Don't get discouraged by loss. You're going to lose. You're going to lose a lot.
You're going to meet those people who'll attempt to shut you down from step one and that's fine, work around them and if you play well you may squeak out a win.

4 - Finally try to keep in mind that your opposition are people too, they're using their free time to play a game just like you and want to have fun. It's far too easy to demonize the other side and say they're the server's Hitler, they have DM support and that's why they always win and other rumours that can get silly over time.
Perhaps send a frienly OOC tell every so often just to see how they're doing? are they having fun? hey I wanna try this are you okay with it? if not how can we accommodate you better?

Anyway that's all I've got to add to the topic.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by -XXX- » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:30 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:55 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:58 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:18 pm


amen
The real discourse is about team selfish vs team generous here.

Praying instead of talking rarely solves difference of opinions.
let's not reduce the server to 2 factions

would you prefer if I said qft instead?

anyway this attitude is part if what makes it hard to be a villain (and a hero). dont let yourself be trapped in a team. you're an individual and there are many more sides to play than just 2. You're going to be a protagonist in some people's stories, an antagonist in others, and a background character in some people's too. I recommend against coming into the server with "I want to be x for y" because 1. rp will often take you way off those rails and 2. you might find yourself hamfisting your intentions in where they're not appropriate.
It's sort of saying the same, actually. By team selfish and team generous I meant mostly two ends of the spectrum that we all seem to oscillate between each time we log in. Sometimes we let other players have some fun at our character's expense, another time we try to steal a win for ourselves (ofc. leaning towards the former is always preferable, but who here can say that they've never done the latter too, hm?)

My criticism was more aimed against the state of the setting, because the consequences for certain character archetypes can be much more serious when they get into a conflict with someone who just happened to opt to go the "win" route that one time, than they can be for other character archetypes in the same scenario.
This doesn't seem right to me and it has very little to do with actual player conduct or any labels.




EDIT: to finally stay on topic:
The best villains and antagonists that I personally enjoy the most revolve around one simple theme:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Want to be legendary? Be. Thomas. Miller.
Last edited by -XXX- on Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Xantor_Stromgate » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:47 pm

DangerDolphin wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:11 pm
Giving people RP is a two way street.

I could literally make these up all day.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Nitro » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:51 pm

Try to win, learn to accept defeats and don't be a cheeseball.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Xantor_Stromgate » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:52 pm

It's all peaches 'n' cake!

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Feelsgoodtastebad » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:31 pm

Ahem! Hellooooooooo!~ Someone requested I chime in.

So having played evil character's who have shaked a glove fist in the air while shouting "You'll rue this day!" I can give some advice in my experiences as well as being on the other side. I'm quite aware some of what I'll say will already have been said but maybe worded differently. But I was asked. And I'm not my character most of you know me for whose a jerk and stubborn~

So there often is multiple things you need to look at. Almost an RP checklist. Worse it varies from evil character to evil character. I could give examples solely based on mine but I'll try and give a more broad if able.

1. So first off you're the evil bad guy. You need to know it. But does your enemy. Secret Organization? Maybe not. Leader of the Banite's well of course they need to know who you are. Trick'em even "BBEG : Do you fear me?" as they kneel. "Lowbie : Yes!" "BBEG : Wrong you should fear Bane!" And then cast fear on them. Please make sure the area is clear of mobs that can kill them. Then when they stop fearing ask for something like "BBEG : Give me 100 gold and four rations in Bane's name!" Or whatever.

2. Be aware you're the BBEG, victory for you should be less times then victory for the "good guys" involved. Meaning don't play to win, but don't exactly just roll over. Give them a struggle. Think of it like a good wine and dine. Instead of just jumping into it. My favorite encounter's were one's I RP'd myself out of it and even pulled a fast one over the "evil" group. Example to this was Tognark got caught alone by Aerik Northman Wolf of Sencliff and a bunch of pirates. I looked at the -20 rest and -8 hunger. My stats were bad. But that's when my brain kicked in. Aerik had an Ego. Tognark... Asked him for an Autograph. And I promise you. Aerik gave him one and then said he wouldn't rob a fan. I stroked the character's ego, got a story of survival, and no pvp had to happen. In otherwords always give a good out. Reward someone RP thinking outside the box.

3. Pick your target wisely. So sometimes it's fun to just be the highwayman right... But you want something long lasting. Something that both parties will leave with a fine story they can retell around the bar with their friends. Or even each other as witty rival banter. Pick your opponent wisely and I have to say that again. Pick. Your. Opponent. Wisely. Know who you're up against enough to know if you really wanna walk down that road. Pick someone too strong and you're just gonna have a bad time. Pick someone too weak who keeps losing and they just give up you've ruined their time. Find the balance. And sometimes it's a bit meta... Reach out to the other OOCily and see if they even want this. You're both here to have fun. Make sure you both are.

4. Intimidation and horror. I can't help but um... Be a bit naughty even on my good characters... If you ever have seen me pull this off it's scary and awful. I play it a bit too well. Lulling someone into a conversation, giving the subtle facial expressions and body language. Keep being polite. Do something for them that makes them go "Oh wow this guy is pretty nice!" and then you do whatever it is for your character you're gonna do. Is it creepy, is it a show of strength, is it the evil laugh with a grin, what is your gimmick to make someone suddenly uneasy... You want to trigger a flight or fight response. Hopefully flight. And let the good guy flee. Remember an alive good guy will tell the story of the encounter to other's. An upset angry good guy wandering The Maze, might be pissed and then just care about pvping you and winning.

5. Don't be afraid to submit agree to meetings. The real trick when handling a diplomatic meeting is making the other side believe their the one's coming out with more to gain then you are.... When it's actually the otherway around. Now this requires sadly yes a good roleplayer to pull off and yes a opponent you're able to mentally manipulate.

I could keep listing and personally I doubt anything I said will make sense or useful. Half the time I don't know what I'm even doing or how I pulled something off... I mean. I'm only here because someone asked me to give input.

Edit.

I got reminded by another third party about something I have... Uh... Done that spoils the mood. It's the Character mind you but it's not untruthful.

6. Know when to be Cliche and when to be Original and Unique. So I'm... Look Tognark's a bit of a... He... Is... Eccentric. He has stood there listening to a huge monologue from evil groups and then stared at them bored only to go "Ok." One even wondered why he cared more about a talking dog moments ago then the speech... And in truthful fashion he said "Well I've heard this about a hundred times before. Sure different wording and people... But it's all the same. Threats, threats, blackmail, threats, my bones broken, go in a grave, threats, and what not. But a talking dog... Have you seen this thing... I'm impressed!" Yeah it sucks when Tognark whose kind of seen/done alot lot ignores your monologue and just wants to point and ask questions about a nearby fixture, or someones clothing, and etc. But is that my character's fault he has heard it all before? Or is it the fault of not impressing your date~ After all i made the wine and dine comment earlier~ This my friend is seduction... Or rather enthrall them. Entertain them... Do something to make them pay attention. On Tognark the people who get him to pay attention the most, they got'ta work for it, and once they have it. They have it. But when it feels like you're just copy and pasting some BBEG's lines from a movie or video game. It can feel... Bland. I'm not saying everyone has to be a Handsome Jack, level of leaving you with an impression.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Bunnysmack » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:46 pm

Some of this may be an accidental rephrase on what other people have posted buuuuut...

On winning: Your victory should have some sort of character-motivated story point that is more than just "pwned these scrubs" with a bit of RP surrounding it as cover. Why is your villain doing what they are doing? Is this path the most compelling story choice for all involved (or is it just the easiest way to 'win')? If you have won, be prepared to create alternative RP options for the vanquished foe, other than just utterly destroying them. This is not always possible, specifically when the vanquished foe is being too poor a sport to accept these olive branches (and instead is refusing to work with you at all, or taking advantage of your kindness), but the bad actors out there do not at all invalidate the practice of adding that extra bit of adaptability so the other players involved can also enjoy the unfolding RP.

On Losing: If the other side has you dead to rights, regardless of if that is political RP or cornering your character with a literal knife to their throat, Pest Control had fantastic advice when they said "accept the loss." Villains, by their very nature, are part of conflict RP. If someone wins a conflict, then someone else is likely losing it. It's less enjoyable for all involved when the losing player refuses to build story around the defeat, particularly when the other PC is trying to make the event a dramatic and collaborative story point. Try to also recognized that just because you think a certain loss outcome is "fair" or "right," doesn't mean that perception is shared by the other people involved. Be flexible in what RP consequences you are willing to accept, and focus on story-crafting as the priority, rather than living out a power-fantasy.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Feelsgoodtastebad » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:05 am

I'm gonna add a 7. as a second post instead of editing the earlier because I dunno feel reader's might over look it if I did. It's also lengthy

7. Don't be the THAT GUY who only interacts via -disguise Notes. It's boring. There is no fun. You are forcing an auto "I win" most of the time. It's lackluster. And it advances nothing. And I can already hear the people last time I gave this advice "But if you know who we are we'll lose the fight!" and I'll say the same thing here I did in that Discord. "Why does there even have to be a fight?" Look notes are great for when you can't meet up, when you wanna stir the pot just a little get a bit of a base before you meet up for the big stewing.

But when I have only notes to RP with... I honestly start feeling... Uninterested and have honestly IRL said a loud "I play Arelith for a reason. If I wanted Forum Post RP I'd go to a Forum" Petty thing to say and go ahead and hate me for it. But I see too many "Evil" groups using the -disguise to write notes and solely use that for rp interactions. I'll humor it for a bit, ask for it to move forward, try and provoke actual role play, and then just grow bored and wander off.

Why? Well... Because... Well... What can I actually gain? Why should I stay invested with you. Why should anyone? "Random person : Hey Tognark you see what is on the board" "Tognark : Nope I don't care about boards anymore. It's all the same. One could say I'm Board with'em eh eh.... Eh... Board... Bored.... Eeeh I'm funny... I'm funny."

I'm not saying never use the -disguise notes. I'm saying 1-2 times. Then meet in person. Otherwise it's cheap, it's cheating imo because you autowin nothing anyone can do about it, and well... Where is the real conflict and RP?

Maybe this is just me being cynical wanting to actually rp with a person not a message board. But it's simply advice. I dunno if anyone else feels that way. Don't care. I'm speaking my mind cause was asked to.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Aniel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:33 am

I’ve played a couple of characters that I think qualify as villains. They’ve also conflicted with other big name villains as well as traditional heroic figures. I’m going to emphasis something someone else said earlier in the thread – something that I think is absolutely critical to playing a well-known, well-respected villain both on Arelith and anywhere else honestly.

Philosophy. Having a character with grounded principles and convictions is the bedrock of characterization. Without these beliefs all villains are invariably reduced to “me bad, me do ebil,” This isn’t something that people, whether they’re also villains or heroes can engage with. Conversations rapidly turn into “hey this is evil,” answered by “I know xd.” This will probably much always lead to PvP, respawns, and wheels spinning in the mud.

Characters need a basis that can be engaged with. I’m going to use one of my recent characters that was sort of villainous as an example not because they’re perfect but because they’re just what I know best.

Lora Gallenson was an abyssal warlock that was devout to Pale Night and incredibly into abyssal ideals in general. She was chaotic evil with a much greater focus on chaos. She utilized deception and lies in a way where she got to spend a great deal of time with team good and work in various different settlements. Subtle work and bad advice furthered her agenda without being disastrous.

Despite being a pretty certifiably Bad person she had a lot of very high standards. With her emphasis on chaos and opposing law, she strongly opposed the Banites and was often at odds with infernalists such as the Iron Brand. Quirks helped alleviate some barriers to interaction – Lora disregarded the Blood War as irrelevant and stupid. Her only woe with infernalists was if they chose to impose their philosophy onto her. In addition part of her background that occasionally came up is that she was an ex-paladin. This often manifested as part of the high standards in that she often denounced the Underdark, hated Andunor, and the vast majority of things that associated with it.

As you can see most of this character building is setup to encourage interactions with people. It has hooks for lots of different people to want to catch onto and dig into. There’s plenty of room for fist shaking and threats, but there’s also plenty for people to question and converse over.

In fact that was most of the time the character was played. Bouncing around and talking with tons and tons of different people. Always meeting new people, talking philosophy and giving sermons. Just generally holding a presence. I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that the character became somewhat widely known and vilified without actually doing anything just because people knew who they were and spoke about them. It goes a lot further and has more of a lasting impact than just PvP.

Apart from philosophy there’s a second thing that very much compliments it: being dynamic. This is likewise just general character advice that has less to do with playing a villain and more to do with just playing a solid character.

Being dynamic means not being static. It means constantly doing something. Constantly meeting new people, stepping on toes, leaning over boundaries, shaking hands, etc. Never be complacent and always be pushing for interaction coupled with a healthy amount of conflict. Of course this is more than just actions, it means character personality and friendships too.

Characters don’t have to have large personality shifts all the time but characters should generally end different than how they started. Characters should progress and learn. Past experiences should inform future decisions. A cheerful naive character who gets double crossed might become more bitter and jaded, they might spend a long time plotting their revenge or what have you. You know, character development.

Alliances is a much bigger one. A character that has a stable friends group or ally network for months upon months or even years can lose its charm and luster. Constant movement and change can keep a character feeling and looking fresh. Harping back to my own character, Lora Gallenson, she was my longest running character. I’ve lost count of how many factions she was a part of over my time of playing her or how many bosses she had. Being an opportunist, when a better opportunity came along she took it. When she was mistreated or slighted she remembered and repaid the sting.

Her career ranged from (briefly) being a Guldorand clerk to being a big name in Bjorn Frostcloak’s abyssal citadel to being the biggest black sheep living in exile in Sibayad working with paladins and other do-gooders to combat necromancy and other mutual enemies (while always have very tense interactions with her then allies.)

I like to think that because of this she was never viewed as stagnant but as always doing something and creating new RP. That she was someone people went out of their way to talk and interact with.

There are always other things people can do to be a good villain as well of course. Being likable OOC, trying to make sure people have fun, being willing to lose for good story, etc. etc. stuff that everyone’s heard before.

But as far as being well presented, looking good, and making people want to interact with you it really does just come down to philosophy and being dynamic. At the end of the day if you want to get a lot of attention and stand out, villain or not, the way you do this is by playing a character that people want to interact with. You never make your own character popular or famous, only other people do and only if they truly like what you’ve done.

Honestly, as much as this is a “how to be a good villain” thread, I think a lot of the advice both in my post and in other people’s really applies to any and all characters. There’s a lot of good stuff here and I hope people find something in all of this that helps them out.

Also, this post has ended up being feeling far more self-serving and boastful than I intended it to be. Woops.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Petrifictus » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:04 am

Also you dont need to be "Top Dog" at PvP to be good villain. I really hate how common this idea is, that if your character is not a one man army with flawless record, they "cant be treated seriously as threat and instead should be a joke."

A good villain often has group of followers that he/she has rallied in their quest to power. Even an evil aligned commoner can become a big bad boss with powerful epics to deal with their dirty work.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Red_Wharf » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:31 am

Petrifictus wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:04 am
Also you dont need to be "Top Dog" at PvP to be good villain. I really hate how common this idea is, that if your character is not a one man army with flawless record, they "cant be treated seriously as threat and instead should be a joke."

A good villain often has group of followers that he/she has rallied in their quest to power. Even an evil aligned commoner can become a big bad boss with powerful epics to deal with their dirty work.
Your second paragraph has merit, you're right, there. Now, about the first paragraph, yes, one does not need to be good at PvP to be a good villain, but remember that PvP is one of the many elements that form a conflict. If a villain boasts about their prowess and might but is rarely able to show those traits when the situation demands, then yes, he won't be feared.

I will have to agree with Nekonecro about this aspect.
Nekonecro wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:28 pm
1- Make sure your RP reflects your build; if you're playing the hard guy you need to have a build able to fufill that role. If you have something suboptimal? you may be better off playing someone more weasel like that's willing to run or bargain for your life. Unfortunately no one respects or fears a character that talks big but loses out on any fight (perhaps slightly contrivertial of an opinion to have but I don't believe in the seperation of mechanics and RP)
I believe it only becomes a joke when the villain keeps touting about their warrior might despite being shown several times that fighting isn't actually their strongest skill. It becomes something comical like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where despite having all his limbs cut off by King Arthur, he doesn't give up, he keeps taunting his enemy as if he still had the upper hand. In that case, the villain has to go find a different reason to be feared if being the village bully isn't working too well for them. It is as you said on the second paragraph, a villain doesn't need to be a good fighter if he has good fighters doing all the fighting for them.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Royal Blood » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:47 am

Red_Wharf wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:31 am
Petrifictus wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:04 am
Also you dont need to be "Top Dog" at PvP to be good villain. I really hate how common this idea is, that if your character is not a one man army with flawless record, they "cant be treated seriously as threat and instead should be a joke."

A good villain often has group of followers that he/she has rallied in their quest to power. Even an evil aligned commoner can become a big bad boss with powerful epics to deal with their dirty work.
Your second paragraph has merit, you're right, there. Now, about the first paragraph, yes, one does not need to be good at PvP to be a good villain, but remember that PvP is one of the many elements that form a conflict. If a villain boasts about their prowess and might but is rarely able to show those traits when the situation demands, then yes, he won't be feared.

I will have to agree with Nekonecro about this aspect.
Nekonecro wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:28 pm
1- Make sure your RP reflects your build; if you're playing the hard guy you need to have a build able to fufill that role. If you have something suboptimal? you may be better off playing someone more weasel like that's willing to run or bargain for your life. Unfortunately no one respects or fears a character that talks big but loses out on any fight (perhaps slightly contrivertial of an opinion to have but I don't believe in the seperation of mechanics and RP)
I believe it only becomes a joke when the villain keeps touting about their warrior might despite being shown several times that fighting isn't actually their strongest skill. It becomes something comical like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where despite having all his limbs cut off by King Arthur, he doesn't give up, he keeps taunting his enemy as if he still had the upper hand. In that case, the villain has to go find a different reason to be feared if being the village bully isn't working too well for them. It is as you said on the second paragraph, a villain doesn't need to be a good fighter if he has good fighters doing all the fighting for them.
I wanted to comment on the PVP aspect. I know a lot of villains who I never saw PVP so I think you can create this sense of fear or villainy without being a super good pvper. But I think it requires someone to be the muscle. I also played a character who was a settlement leader and she rarely pvped herself but had followers that did take care of business for her.

I think living and dying by pvp.is a big mistake because eventually you'll hit a build that hard counters you
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I do not win, I do not lose.
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Play a part in the story you tell too.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Hedgehog » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:59 am

Methodical Jeff Bezos Amazon Villain approach:

Take over the economy slowly, one by one lulling everyone into a sense of peace and prosperity.

Continue to take over and monopolize the market, buying stores one by one, and beat out competitors....

Once the hegemony is established, raise the prices of everything, slowly but surely, making tiny adjustments here and there.

Slowly continue to turn up the heat of the water, like frogs in a pot; until they are suddenly boiling to death before they even realized what was going on.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Not speaking from experience here.... Promise!!! Innocent! :mrgreen:
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:09 am

Having done my share of villaining, my own input.

As several other people have mentioned, you've got to bank on eventually losing pvp. The longer and more prominently you're a villain, the greater is the likelihood that someone will decide to make a name for their character by popping yours or someone will decide to round up the whole damn gang to kill you.

The other thing is to remember that, ultimately, your ability to play a villain ultimately hinges on how much your opponents enjoy fighting/conflict roleplay that involves you. So a lot of my specific dos and don'ts boil down to "don't do things that make your IC opposition OOCly upset to be fighting you". The moment you do, you're probably going to start getting the speedbump treatment from anyone that can win pvp against you, and then you're either going to die a lot or start resorting to unfun OOC strategies like "I guess every waking moment is spent in my locked guildhouse except when I can get enough of my friends online to go fight".

Things Fun Villains Do

1) Be respectful, IC and OOC. Even if you know that your opponent is not a mechanically credible threat, behave as though they are. Treat them like you're fighting them because it's important to your character to fight them. Give them some weight, even if they're losing. Never treat your adversaries like a speedbump, the butt of a joke, or anything else otherwise worthy of nothing but scorn. Of the bunch, I think this simple point is the most important. The moment you start taking a narrative dump on your opponents, they're going to feel justified in doing the same to you. Don't gloat.

2) Be narratively and mechanically available. By narrative availability, I mean that you need to be part of the server that people see, hear, and roleplay with to some extent. You need to interact with the outside world. You need to go mingle with the playerbase, because ultimately you're playing for your impact on the playerbase.

Mechanical availability means that your RP, or at least a significant portion of it, needs to happen somewhere that people who aren't in your inner circle can plausibly, physically reach you. You need to make a response, a counterattack, etc. something that reasonable people can accomplish. This means no hiding in your unassailable guild hall, no logging on only when you can assemble a squad of 8+ people to back you up, no doing all your meetings in the Shadowvar post. You need to take some risks. If you don't, people are going to be justifiably upset with how hard you've gamified the system. And every single victory you win will be treated as that much less significant.

If you're not narratively available, it's hard for other people to be invested in your story.

If you're not mechanically available, your opponents will feel like they're not being given a fair shot at roleplaying with you.

If you ever find yourself in a spot where you've completely denied the other side a chance to strike at you, you've failed to be a fun villain.

If you're NEVER online alone, never do things alone, never interact with the module alone, you're probably not in good shape either.

Yes this means you might get attacked/lose a fight/get killed. That's good. It means you're playing the game like a normal human being, and the people you oppose will appreciate it.

3) Be enjoyable to lose to. A lot of this is being OOCly considerate to defeated opponents; there's nothing that makes someone unwilling to work with you in any fashion quite as fast as beating them and then being rude, disrespectful, and boastful about it. Yes, it might be entirely IC to do so, but you should avoid the heck out of it because it will make people OOCly furious with you. There is nothing that kills your career as a villain quite as dead as becoming so loathed that nobody wants to give you any more than a oneline sendoff when you're doing evil things.

That said, I should probably add a quick word here. I don't mean that you can't ever shove someone face-first into the trash. The nature of RP is such that, sometimes, you're probably going to have to do this. Save it for a response, though. If you're acting in a proactive fashion in any conflict (i.e. you are, narratively, the first mover) then you need to start out enjoyable. If someone else starts acting like a shitbird, you can play a little nastier. But don't be the first party in a conflict to go nasty. The villain usually has the initiative. Use it to set a positive tone.

It also does not mean that you should dress up your villain RP in silly, goofy memes to add a false lighthearted sense to it. Roleplaying that you're offering your torture victim freshly baked cookies does not make you fun to lose to, it just cheapens the story you're trying to write.

4) Respect your losses, be courteous in defeat. If someone beats your Snuggybear raw, consider giving it a little weight. Treat them with wary respect next time you run into them. Show some reluctance to cross them directly. Go buy some help to deal with the opponent for you.

5) Related to 3, resist the urge to write off your defeats as "too cheap to count". If you ever find yourself saying something like "I normally respect my pvp deaths, but I didn't get very much RP", take a moment to think, and be excruciatingly honest. Is that really true? Is there a good narrative reason you might have gotten smacked? Did it advance the story? Did you REALLY throw as many grenades as you possibly could?. Or are you mad you lost and trying to justify? If there's even a shred of sentiment that feels like "I wouldn't have lost if the other side hadn't [insert thing you're upset about here]" then you need to take a step back and probably eat the consequences anyway.

6) Fight even when victory looks uncertain. Tough fights generate good narrative. Win or lose, you've added something worthwhile to the narrative of whatever conflict you're driving. The same can't be said for villains who only stick around for the sure wins.


Things Fun Villains Don't

1) OOC raises with no further narrative purpose. I see a lot less of this these days, thankfully, but it used to be a hallmark of Arelith Villains trying to "be nice". OOC raises are a trap, pure and simple. Arelith has seen a number of really awful villains who justified some frankly atrocious behavior (trawling lowbie zones for indiscriminate kills, inconsiderate and hairtrigger pvp engagements, etc.) with the excuse of "but I raise my victims every time". This misses the whole point. If your interaction was not of high enough quality to be enjoyable, the OOC raise doesn't save it.

2) Sacrifice RP. Another trap. It might feel to you like sacrificing your PVP victims is a way to give them some roleplay after the fact, but you've boxed yourself (and them!) into a corner. Ultimately, you're going to kill them another time or emote doing so, usually after some ritualistic ego stroking bs, so you're in a corner. You're also using your opponent as a prop for the aforementioned stroking of ego (and other things), which is inconsiderate af. Finally, you're leaving your opponent with roleplay that takes on the form of "I got sacrificed to Bane last week. But I got better". This accomplishes nothing that wouldn't have happened absent the sacrifice. How much they roleplay an injury, the debilitation, etc. is up to them in either event.

Caveat: I've seen sacrifice RP done well once. And that was because it was done strictly to allow for a rescue of the victims. The "sacrificers" set up a ritual, drew it out to buy time for the rescue party to show up, and then bailed when the good guys showed up to allow them to rescue the would-be victims. That was fine.

Suggestion: if your only aim in a sacrifice RP setup is to obtain a prop to use in a ritual, then just let your victims respawn.

3) Torture. See above about using another player as a prop. Even if you keep it PG-13, it's still not gonna contribute much.

3) Griefing. It really should be obvious, but try to let your "score" be settled after you've had the fight to settle it. This means one fight per transgression, no more, as a general rule of thumb. A guy breaks into guildhouse and emotes leaving a bag of feces outside your door (real example, thanks Arelith), go ahead and flay him for it. Once.

4) Exorbitant ransoms. Ransoms may seem well and good, but try to be creative about it. Make the amount of gold a mere token, and make the ransom about encouraging someone else to swallow their pride and be a good loser, or give some other non-monetary, RP-themed concession. Remember that not every opponent you have will be wealthy. If you're ever in a position where roleplaying with you starts regularly coming with a six (or sometimes seven) figure price tag, then I'd strongly reconsider your approach, because that big a setback can sour even the best of roleplay (see above comments about being enjoyable to lose to). At least for my part, any time an interaction with a villain starts coming with a rapidly ballooning pricetag, the urge to just unga bunga my way through the rest of the conflict rises, and more than one villain in the distressingly long time I've been here has moved themselves from the "Stop to RP with this guy" category to the "Idk, I guess I'll just smack him and see what happens" category by being too expensive to roleplay interactively with.

5) Skull trophy RP. Just don't. "Eheheh, I still have ur skull" is not compelling narrative. It's not good roleplay. It doesn't make you seem any more menacing. So do yourself and everyone around you a favor: take those player skulls and slide them sensually deep into the nearest trashcan.


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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Petrifictus » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:36 am

I think villain should have some freedom to gloat and brag as long its IC! Not everybody need to be humble and civil, expect OOC of course.
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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Endrak » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:57 am

My one piece of advice is not to drink the Kool-Aid Flavor Aid. If you start buying your own RP and acting like Arelith must capitulate to your rule or burn, nobody's going to have a good time, especially you.

That kind of behavior is why the most memorable, rage-inducing villain I've ever encountered on the server was the Cordor Guard.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:12 pm

Petrifictus wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:36 am
I think villain should have some freedom to gloat and brag as long its IC! Not everybody need to be humble and civil, expect OOC of course.
Sure, you're free to be not a very fun villain if you like.

But when you get treated like a speedbump, killed out of hand, and bashed, the gloating is probably a big part of it, because, for better or worse, you've probably made people upset on an OOC level.


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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Security_Blanket » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:51 pm

Petrifictus wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:36 am
I think villain should have some freedom to gloat and brag as long its IC!
There's such a thing as being a sore winner as much as a sore loser. Depending on the context of your "win", if your intention is to make things fun for others involved, adding insult to injury isn't the best approach.

For the type of villain that's fun for everyone, I would suggest the less "in your face evil" type of character. A corrupt guard, a scheming noble, you don't have to think PvP if you think evil (even if it eventually finds you). If you want to get away from that mindset, try making an evil commoner merchant and see where you can take them.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Ork » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:25 pm

Scurvy really hit the nail. Don't give people a reason to believe your actions are OOC-influenced.
Last edited by Ork on Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Diegovog » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:04 pm

Scurvy's post is pretty great, I just want to say a few things.

Everyone wants to be a good villain/hero. And yet, there's only ever a handful really respected ones (it has gotten better over the years). And that's because they actually get things done. I see this a lot, people who want to be remarkable villains and try really really hard to build a network of influence and end up being a spy at most. Having closed doors meetings pointing out threats but not changing the course of events for their nefarious goals.
If you're not going to be out there doing what you claim you can do then I'll quote GoT: "words are wind"
Want to corrupt characters? Then you have to go out there and find people to corrupt, don't expect people to come to you.
Want to be a renowned assassin? Then at least murder one person.
So many think they are going to be the next mastermind puppeteering people behind closed doors that it's almost a meme.

I don't think I'm among the best villains, but I'll give two advices.
1- Don't organize things OOC'ly with the opposing side despite what many say. It's easy for everyone around you to pick it up and it becomes just theatrics. Nobody will see you as a threat. And closures of such events are never satisfying since it was simply the OOC direction that was decided in a discord chat.
2- If you lose, make it a challenge. Losing is fine as long as people believe you can win. Be it politically or in pvp (especially in elections!!!)

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:12 pm
Petrifictus wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:36 am
I think villain should have some freedom to gloat and brag as long its IC! Not everybody need to be humble and civil, expect OOC of course.
Sure, you're free to be not a very fun villain if you like.

But when you get treated like a speedbump, killed out of hand, and bashed, the gloating is probably a big part of it, because, for better or worse, you've probably made people upset on an OOC level.
This is completely depressing, but also probably true. One would hope that people can separate someone playing a 8 charisma character like they have a 8 charisma from the player, but in my experience clerics of ilmater will team up with tieflings just to curb stomp you. And she wasn't even the type to gloat or brag, just difficult. She was inspired by someone who passed through my life rather briefly, but I digress...

As for advice, mine is rather simple and i use it for every concept, good, evil or indifferent. First two are questions I ask myself, the last two are statements I am constantly reminding myself of-

1) Can I see ways my storyline might play out in game, or is it just an image that would never work in practice? That doesn't mean it will play out the way you envision, it definitely won't, but if you can't see it before starting beyond say a snapshot its probably not going to take off.

2) Now that i have decided it could play out on Arelith, I think about whether or not I can involve others in the story and how I would go about doing that. Involving others can mean a lot of things, and even a loner can do it quite well just by creating random encounters, but involving others is important otherwise no matter how good your story is no one is going to care.

3) The best IC secrets are OOC secrets. If you got a master plan, don't tell anyone about it in tells, on discord, ect. It will always make things awkward, with nothing to gain. The exception being if you have a partner in crime, but even then its good to have a motivation that partner doesn't know about so you can put some twists in the story line you share with them.

4) The game is basically throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks when it comes to generating a story line that people will take notice of. Don't get discouraged when attempt one or 20 fails, just keep at it until it doesn't make sense to do so anymore.

Good luck out there.

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Re: How to be a Fun Villain

Post by Preserver » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:32 am

Woah.

Alright this may be contentious and it remains merely my opinion. But trying directly to answer to the OP.

  • First of all, establish whether you intend to play a villain or a bad guy. The first one has a very specific narrative purpose within the communal storytelling we do, which is specifically to challenge the hero (heroes in our case) by driving the story forward through villainous means (usually generating an inciting incident, creating tension, etc...). The bad guy implies more a style of play, and that is wanting to fit in the storyline without being the storyline's own foil; that often makes one feel edgy and cool, and there is nothing wrong with it! Just know what you aim for.
  • Second: establish the general theme you are going for and the general message you want the villain to represent. Villains contextualized by the evil nature of their actions exclusively tend to be very shallow. Have a theme, a motivation and a mental design for the villain. That can MASSIVELY alter your play experience; the villain can be sympathetic because they have a tragic history that forged them; they can have a distorted worldview born of faith or circumstance; they can be ambitious and ache for power for the sake of proving their mettle. Try, if possible, to make the theme metatextual so that it connects with the players, not only with the other PCs: this means, try to make the EVILOSITY something that the good guys' players can understand on a narrative level.

    EXAMPLE: your villain is an evil druid who wants to destroy a settlement because the balance of the world is being heavily swayed towards civilization rather than nature. Are their actions excused? No. But the reasoning can be understood on a meta level.

    This is why "100% mad" villains are hard to make: villainous actions due to insanity are hard to understand and they rely more on your heroes' fault, rather than the villain's motivation.
  • Third: have an endgame in mind. As cliché as it may sound, it works perfectly on a narrative level. To have a big final plan. The doomsday device, the gigantic plague, the war invasion: this is your punchy chapter that is fun to see happen and that is great to plan with minute details!
    The endgame needs to be flexible (because the good guys may try to change the conditions before it happens!) and adapt to circumstance, but it must happen at some point. The endgame raises the stakes, it brings them to their top and forces the good guys to rise from their lowest to try and smack you down, which leads to...
  • Get ready to get smacked down! As a villain, understand your purpose in the narrative. And that purpose is to create the conditions of highest tension and stakes, to create the dastardly plan and push the good guys to their limits and their lowest, to make sure that everything is prepared for your great victory... until it isn't and you are defeated.
    As a villain, you exist to be the heroes' test, and for a traditionally satisfying narrative, that test needs to be overcome by the end of the story. This -can- be problematic if you grow too OOCly attached to your endgame; which is why I suggest to plan it with some definite faults from the beginning, things that your villain cannot see due to hubris or due to a personal weakness.
    And I cannot stress it enough: this is exclusively my opinion and preference... for a villain to be satisfying to play and to play with, you need to seem unstoppable and then you need to FAIL so that the good guys can have their day!


The fun of playing a villain comes mostly out of three sources: the giddy anticipation at how cool your endgame will be, all the RP of preparation and the challenge of keeping the endgame viable and enjoying the reaction of the good guys. It is, honestly, a big work of love towards the community when it is done appropriatedly, for it is what "pushes" the narrative for many characters forward.

Most of this comes from my direct experience playing a villain and going through those steps! So I hope this helps :) !

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