Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

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NauNatha
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Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by NauNatha » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:42 am

I find myself agreeing with this. OR, an overhaul/improvement of the enchanting system (different discussion).

1. Artefacts have seem to have knocked off high-end enchanted gear as endgame equipment purely because their numbers can go much higher. This, combined with the pretty massive nerf to Magic Godsaves, have left Epic Enchanters a rotting breed (seriously only know of one, maybe two total, at least one of which began the path to Epic Enchanter before any of these nerfs took place).

Also, if there are no plans to enable players to be able to change the descriptions and names of these artefacts, another reason to just remove them entirely. I agree with the sentiment that "Artefact found by random person here" is hideous to my eyes and detracts from the rest of an otherwise pretty creative server.

Pretty much, it broke the "Players are the one's who can produce the most powerful gear." I seem to remember a dev stating was the mission goal as far as enchanting/crafting went.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Cortex » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:37 am

Wouldn't increasing the power of enchanters be more enabling than otherwise?
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by UUD-40 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:45 am

To add on, artifacts absolutely encourage item farming and speedy, minimal RP dungeon runs. I've gone with many groups composed of different players across a wide array of levels, and typically the progression is the same: fast, minimal interaction grind.

Typically, the artifacts themselves aren't treated as items of great power, and the dialog surrounding them feels more like "roll for loot" than the discovery of something mystical. Most of the time, the in-character reaction is "meh," and the artifact is sold off, donated in a charity bin, or stuck up for sale in a shop for exorbitant amounts of gold. That, or they get dumped onto a faction head to put in guild storage to be distributed to low and midlevel characters in a flood of high-powered gear. In some cases, I've seen interactions go "Here, you look like you could use this. Trades. Bye!"

I see a lot of shops with 1-3 artifacts, some more than others, and some operated by players I rarely see online for any length of time.


I appreciate the treat that a powerful item can be, but there's nothing special about them in character and they tend to, in my experience, encourage farming whether solo or in groups.

I have never seen an artifact enrich the roleplay environment of the server. Not in acquisition, not in use, not in trade.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Stath » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:00 am

Not artifact grind?
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Sazu » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:32 am

UUD is right. I see plenty of artefacts in the shops.

Honestly they seem like plain ordinary junk with high quality enchantments. They lack any sort of color or spice in their descriptions, and in truth I see them contributing little to the server except giving grind junkies yet another leg up on those less apt to grinding. As well they give people more reason to grind and less to RP.

I could see them totally wiped from the server and not shed a single tear. My characters rarely enjoy hunting(in fact as a player I rather dislike the need for grinding and usually rely on RPR to get most of my XP). Also I'd rather feel some sense of accomplishment making my own gear(as I do when I do make it), rather than go to random cave, kill random useless beasts, and take random usually useless-to-me artefact that has crappy flavor text like. 'Artefact found at random place by such and such'

My type of artifact was something like what I found once in a sewer in a lowbie dungeon. The randomness of it made it(to me anyways) special. The Corthala Family Blade had a name, had good enchantments on it, and actually I got RP from its eventual sell.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Irongron » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:39 am

Dungeon crawling is an essential part of the AD&D experience, and while it may not be for everyone, I see little reason to curtail the enjoyment factor for any of our players.

My own characters never come near an artifact, or have enough gold to buy them, but I'm not upset by other people having them.

I don't see a need to have them removed, but I do think we may do something along the following the lines.

- Make Artifacts less frequent, so that people don't rush the relevant areas post reset.

- Enable some way to give them individual descriptions

- Give enchanters a boost again, to make the focus worthwhile.

- Allow crafters some way of improving upon their increasingly mundane selections.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by livingNPC » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:56 am

How about making artifacts drop when a player dies. Be it in PvP or NPCs death...maybe also add a muling code on the artifacts, in case a player runs back to their body after their death by NPCs. Or disappears with their corpse, upon re-spawn.

This could counter the end game items argument.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by NauNatha » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:59 am

Irongron wrote:-Make Artifacts less frequent, so that people don't rush the relevant areas post reset.
It would be awesome if they randomly, and only occasionally, spawned in one or two dungeons per reset or RL day, even week-- out of a list of possible high-level dungeon locations, with only certain monsters such as Paush the Ridiculous or a certain Giant having them for sure.
Irongron wrote: - Enable some way to give them individual descriptions
Yes please!
Irongron wrote: - Give enchanters a boost again, to make the focus worthwhile.
I would love to see Epic Enchanting open up access to higher-end possibilities of enchantment, such as +2d4 damages, +2 or +3 ACs, +2 Universals, +2 AB Bonuses, +4 Skill Drops, +1 Regeneration, bla bla etc... with appropriately scaled costs/chances so you can put more than just a single high end enchantment on a single item before it drops to 5%.
Irongron wrote:- Allow crafters some way of improving upon their increasingly mundane selections.
Arelith could learn a lot from games like the Witcher or even Dragon Age; by crafting items with 'slots' and crafting things such as runes that can be placed upon items to create a more varied system of effects. Also, pretty much anything from this thread.
Cortex wrote:Wouldn't increasing the power of enchanters be more enabling than otherwise?
I'm honestly rather confused by this question.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by CragOrion » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:26 am

To me, artifacts are a little silly. They're surrounded by all this hype, but I've VERY rarely ever seen an artifact that actually impressed me. Most of them just have a situational bonus that is rarely ever useful, and just not worth the weight in your inventory. I don't think we should do away with them because they're too good. I think we should do away with them because they're pointless.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Sazu » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:57 am

I'm not for removing artifacts altogether... for me it's more about the flavor.

If I saw 'Ssaz Tam's First Dread Staff' as an artifact... I'd crap my pants and weep in joy.

I would use pre-existing characters in the FR realm and add small items that wouldn't be ones they have now. 'Drizzt's Practice Blades', or 'House Do'Urden Family Blade' would be alot more interesting than what is there now.

That said... I LOVE all the suggestions Irongron posted.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Red Sunset » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:06 am

Oh I have seen a few useful artefacts, and this thread comes up coincidentally when a rather powerful one has been advertised in game.

Most of the time from what I have see having an enchanter make a set of custom gear is still going to be better than finding a few interesting artefacts.

My real concern: are the truly powerful artefacts ever going to disappear once found? I notice that often times players will pass on gear when a character's story comes to an end. It is going to be all the more tempting to do in the case of the really interesting artefacts, and over time this may make such artefacts less rare than perhaps was intended. Time will tell I suppose.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Durvayas » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:20 am

Red Sunset wrote:Oh I have seen a few useful artefacts, and this thread comes up coincidentally when a rather powerful one has been advertised in game.

Most of the time from what I have see having an enchanter make a set of custom gear is still going to be better than finding a few interesting artefacts.

My real concern: are the truly powerful artefacts ever going to disappear once found? I notice that often times players will pass on gear when a character's story comes to an end. It is going to be all the more tempting to do in the case of the really interesting artefacts, and over time this may make such artefacts less rare than perhaps was intended. Time will tell I suppose.

That happens with legendary enchanted artifacts as well. It is the natural order of things. My only gripe is that these items being passed down are boring, with no description beyond 'so and so found this somewhere'.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by KeldonDonovan » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:36 pm

Allowing name and description modification should be easy. The script already grabs the players name, and puts it in the description. It could just also put it in square brackets at the end of the name of the item. Wouldn't even increase lag, all the variables are already filled.

In that case, if you see a terribly described artifact, you can hate the player, not the game.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Cuchilla » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:00 pm

Irongron wrote:My own characters never come near an artifact, or have enough gold to buy them, but I'm not upset by other people having them.
I second this. Even though I agree wth most of what's said against artifacts in this thread, I'd like to add, that if just 1 player out of maybe a 100 would use an artifact for exciting roleplay, I don't see any reason for removing them. It's easy to live with other uses of them.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by rat0a » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:07 pm

I'm going to raise my hand here

I been roughly over more 120 something of those artifacts hunt between all my characters

Do they encourage grinding? Yes they do, so what? we have to remember even though this is a RPin
server the core of NWN game is exploration and combat. Like I always says you like to be a level 10 major of a town for a year, be so....you like to do the fast track leveling? power to you...you only interested on be a merchant?..get rich...and so on

Live and let live

What is fun to you maybe is not fun to someone else

What people expect to do with their epics? sit around town and talk for four hours? <---this one got me in trouble with a DM lol

If done properly the Artefact hunt is just like Warftown hunt early to mid levels characters, they stay for a couple of hours because is easy and the gold drop is good.

Most people will say that Artefacts are junk because what they see at the shops, I will agree with that but because the good stuff people keep it to themselves...one of my toons have a full plate on her bag with 3 CON 4 REFLEX 4 AC that a Paladin will kill for. problem is for one good item you get you will get 50 that aren't worth your time.

Why I go on these hunts? Well to have fun and break from other things like standing around in town/city RPing with people. My two main characters are capped I don't even get XP from those trips and and 99.5 percent of the time I don't get the Artefact for myself but I don't mind it anyway.

The only thing that bothers me a bit is when the leader of some of these groups keep the good things all the time and only offer the junk to everyone else in his/her party I had seen it many, many times but then again the other players can refuse NOT to go on hunts but they go anyway.
They also invite you because they know if they do that thing solo all the time he/she will get in trouble and you will start to draw attention from the Staff.

Don't get me wrong I like my Rping as well and sometimes 2 or 3 RL days goes by before I go on a serious hunt, but when the times comes to do some real exploration/combat "IS ON" and I don't loose sleep on what's people are doing on the server, that's why we have Staff and DM's around after all.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by zwerver » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:28 pm

Make essence bottles of +2 abillity, rare stats, you get my drift. Then players can make their own artifacts

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Sazu » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:32 pm

rat0a wrote:I'm going to raise my hand here
What people expect to do with their epics? sit around town and talk for four hours? <---this one got me in trouble with a DM lol
Sorry I don't believe this for a second. DMs don't go around forcing people to grind and patrol or hunt or whatever. So unless you were talking strictly in tells where your character sat around silently for four hours... I find it hard to believe.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:36 pm

rat0a wrote: Why I go on these hunts? Well to have fun and break from other things like standing around in town/city RPing with people.
There's so much wrong with this statement. I'll just ask some questions instead of ranting -

- Are you implying that roleplay and "hunting" (we should just call it farming) are exclusive to one another?
- Are you implying you need to take "breaks" from roleplay?
- Are you implying you can *only* roleplay in towns and cities?
- Are you implying that your classification of roleplay is "standing around and rping"?
- Are you implying that you cannot have *fun* roleplaying outside of towns/cities?

I am being snide in how literal I am taking this, and I apologize, but the statement speaks to a much larger overriding theme on how artefacts do not encourage thoughtful dungeon-crawling. (Irongorn, I will disagree with you.)

Instead, they encourage quick, immediate dungeon-crawling.

The argument of, "As long as it does not interfere with me, let others have their fun" can only be reiterated so many times before it can only be interpreted as "passing the buck". More seriously, it is what can lead to-
"everyone else is doing it so why don't I"
or,
"others having their fun can eventually lead to it circling back to me, making it unfun"

I'm of the idea that a persistent online server needs to have a level of shared experience. I disagree with the idea that there are pockets of interaction that are treated with indifference and a "do what you will" attitude.

I also think buffing enchanting is not the alternative. I've a lot of problems with the current enchantment system, as it is biased towards rich, high-level characters, and it is not biased towards risk-taking, adventuring, and ambitious characters. The two categories are often not synonymous.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by UUD-40 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:01 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:I am being snide in how literal I am taking this, and I apologize, but the statement speaks to a much larger overriding theme on how artefacts do not encourage thoughtful dungeon-crawling. (Irongorn, I will disagree with you.)

Instead, they encourage quick, immediate dungeon-crawling.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, and you said it better than I did. Were there any kind of rich, interesting interactions on these runs, I'd have no gripe about artifacts. Instead, it's a rush to the end to grab the prize and port out.

Artifacts encourage quick, immediate dungeon grinding.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Izaich » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:45 pm

A few quick ideas:

Add negative traits to the pool of random stats. This increases unpredictability on what you might find, and opens up the idea of 'cursed' items. This can be elaborated upon by allowing enchanters the ability to remove these negative traits.

Allow enchanters the ability to re-roll the traits of an artifact, provided they have the necessary resources.

Add traits to the artifact pool that enchanters can't normally achieve. Special traits like various bonus feats (spell focus, armour prof, etc), or Cast Spell abilities. This would make artifacts satisfy a different niche than enchanted items, and diminish the overlap between the two.

Lastly, give artifacts a Dwarf Fortress treatment. Give them randomized names and descriptions.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by grip » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:59 pm

A couple ideas:

Remove the chance of class or race specific requirements. It makes UMD all the more powerful and is just one more reason to include Bard or Rogue into every single build. Artificially inflating costs would, maybe, be needed if this were done.

Lower the limit on how much these things can hold. Shields with +4 STR/+4 AC, Armor with +3 Uni Saves/20 resistances/+4 AC, and armor with the similar can and do break the reasonable power assumptions of the server for both PvM and PvP

Make the chests spawn in different locations or lower the chances of them spawning an item. There are characters that spend all their time in the dungeons with artefacts grinding them over, and over, and over untill they have exactly what they want. This is wack, imo.

Edit* Also boots with +4 Dodge bonus to AC? Swords with multiple d8 damage bonuses? Items with Immunity to fear? Come on y'all, that is crazy OP. Monks invest 20 levels to get immunity to mind effects and these items just hand it to someone with a lucky roll? Not cool.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by rat0a » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:02 pm

Seven read again
and come back to me later I don't have time for the 60 questions and answers
Your assumptions are incorrect.

Sazu:
The DM comment was because I told the DM that after he punished me with my RPR because I was been watched at all times. Anyway that DM is not a DM anymore.

Live and let live I do lot's of grinding from time to time but most people do it as well
while emoting your their way to the next level but is hunting/grinding at the core.

this thread is about atefacts anyway and not about how you and I play the "GAME"

you don't like the way I play? I'm sorry for you :)
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by Yma23 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:57 pm

I actually agree almost entirely with all the suggestions Irongron gives.

Maybe this is just how I feel – but I think the issue at least from my perspective is like this:

Who would you rather see get the nifty powerful magical item?

Team 1) A group who gather together ICly, who prepare judiciously, they fight and rp their way carefully though the dungeon, getting to the end, and with much aplomb grab the fabled artifact!
Team 2) One or two people who meet, likely oocly though skype, right after the reset, charge the nearest artifact dungeon before anyone else gets there.

Right now its group 2 that the situation favor. Because it’s literally ‘first to the artifact gets it’. It favours power builders, speed grinders and ooc meetings, because it’s a matter of RL time, the race to –get- to the item. Now this is by no means what happens all the time! Oh no! But I think it does irk people to think that after hours of fun dungeon crawling, they failed to get the thing they went after, roleplayed for, just because some speed grinder went ‘I wonder if I’ll get the +5 boots of dodge today? Nope? Welp. That’s a fifth artifact for my shop – onto the next dungeon!”

And remember this snowballs. The more artifacts that are half decent the grinder gets, the more powerful they become, the able they are to grind though the dungeon to get the next artifact.

So, the problem with artifact now I think is their placing is simply too obvious. Most people know where they are, a lot know how to get them, so instead of an epic quest to get the fabled boots of +5 dodge, it becomes a rushed grind to get to the goodies.

That said I’m against the idea of removing, or even vastly downgrading artifacts. The idea that such powerful magical items can be discovered is wonderful, exciting and joyous. Gives some folk a fantastic edge! I love it!

I love all of Irongron’s suggestions. But the only one that.. I won’t say ‘concerns’ me but I’m not entirely sure will be as effective as it could be is the first.

“- Make Artifacts less frequent, so that people don't rush the relevant areas post reset.”

I think its less a matter of making them ‘less frequent’ and rather more random.

Less frequent might not help, because all it means is that the speed grinder still goes to the same dungeons for a -chance- at the artifact. if it's there - they still take it. If it's not then... no one else can?*

So - instead of that, maybe something more random?

Would it be possible to have artifact chests spawn in random dungeon areas? Ideally still only upper mid-to-high level bosses, but still random dungeons.
Yes, this would open up the chances of them appearing in ‘easier’ dungeons, but is that such a bad thing? I think it’d be nice for those who aren’t epics to stand a chance at getting something awesome. It’d encourage exploration more. It’d make it difficult to ‘farm’ artifacts because you –don’t know where they are- half the time.

That said, of all the suggestions it’s actually Irongron’s I love the most, because artifacts are neat, and fun, and awesome and to see them removed/nerfed because just a few are abusing the situation would be quit sad.


*This I guess would depend on how the 'less frequent' idea is done. If it's 'There is a chance the chest -might- have an artifact in this reset' then it's not so good. If it's 'This chest might have an artifact in it next time you visit it, once per reset' Then that's better (As in, multiple visits by different groups might result in an artifact) I don't know if I am explaining that right, but there's a sublte difference there. The latter basicaly is a lot better, IMO.

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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by rat0a » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:21 pm

let's remember something here:

85% or more of those Artifacts are "Pure Junk" [example: small shield usable by a mage][helmet with 1 Dex] and not overpowered like some people claim it
To get something nice you have to go every day three times a day for a month, maybe less if you lucky and sometimes you get something nice that you don't have a use for, those usually go to a friend shop. But yes sometimes you hit the jackpot.

I had seen many of the Artefacts going down the trash barrel at Warfy/Cordor

I go because is fun to get there not because I want a Full plate with 4CON 4UNI 4AC and I'm not concerned if X Player have Y Arterfact and I don't loose sleep over X player is more stronger than me.

The good things about artifacts: Nobody pays attention to Adamite like in the past. lol
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

Post by grip » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:54 pm

rat0a wrote:To get something nice you have to go every day three times a day for a month...
I hate to harp on you, rat0a, but does this not seem a little bit excessive? Do you not think that going to those dungeons three times a day for a month could mean that other groups do not get to try for artefacts?
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