Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

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Swirling Stars
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Swirling Stars » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:10 pm

I miss the way it used to be tbh. There's alot worse things that need to be addressed than protection against alignment. Like, balancing the classes perhaps?
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Durvayas » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:24 pm

Dinosaur Space Program wrote:
No, they aren't actually. Some of of them are from 4.0 when it comes to source material. Most notably fey related things. A number of areas of the Forgotten Realms never got an update in 3.5 or after and so use older source material that people have also added to the server. It's a mixed bag. And that is Entirely in fluff and setting material.
If we were in 4.0 the drow pantheon would consist entirely of Lolth, Vhaeraun, and Elistreaee. Because that very noticably was changed. Kiriansalee, selvetarm, and Zinzerena are still a thing, and there are several other deities that would not be available.

There are also posts on the old forums that support my assertion that we are in the 3.5 timeline and our deities come from it. Is there a sprinkling of 4.0? Perhaps, but by and large Arelith is rooted firmly in 3.5 setting-wise... late 3.5 if you consider that Bane and Cyric are both gods at the same time here.


But on the topic at hand... I wish PvA worked properly because of how absolutely broken fear auras are, and low levels have absolutely no protection against them except for chugging a clarity pot they can barely afford in reasonable quantities and hoping whatever they fight is dead before it runs out.

At least before there was some sort of lasting immunity to that thick helping of cheese the NwN engine handed us, whereas now the spell is nearly useless and used only to boost saves and then have clarity wanded on top of it.
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:44 pm

The solution to all your problems is the clarity spell.

I didn't like the PfA change at first, either- but clarity is a level three spell that, without the change, is absolutely WORTHLESS in the face of PfA and MCAA.

5 rounds of immunity +1 round/caster level is extremely beneficial against those groups of mobs that spam will save spells.

Like PfA, it also can't be breached. Unlike PfA, it can be cast on your allies at range, and it only requires somatic components to cast, meaning you can cast it even if you are silenced or deafened.

As the final icing on the cake, you can't get around it by making your character (or the monster spawns) neutral in alignment on the moral axis.
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by CragOrion » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:46 pm

its duration is extremely short, shorter than MCAA. If i don't view MCAA as a viable alternative because its short duration, I'm definitely not going to for clarity.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Twily » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:27 pm

Low level spells aren't supposed to be amazing. :| Clarity and PfA are both very useful and can mean the difference between victory and defeat in many cases. Mind Immunity is a HUGE deal, and getting it for the entire trip from a level 1 or level 3 spell would just be crazy.

We can't forget that although the spells do provide similar results, they are meant for different situations. PfE exists to help throughout the whole trip, clarity exists for getting by that one tough fight, and Mind Blank exists for people who want full protection for the whole trip. Given that it's a level 1, 3 and 5(8 for aoe) spell respectively it seems like a fairly even and balanced progression.

The big thing to keep in mind here: Sure we lost a lot when this change was made, but I found myself asking "Is it really fair/fun/balanced to have mind immunity against more than half of the servers NPCs for the entire trip from a level 1 spell?" I personally don't think so.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Durvayas » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:13 pm

An entire trip is too much to ask from clarity. However, 5 rounds +1 CL is, if you aren't higher level than the area you're tromping around in, not long enough to even clear out a handful of mobs, much less a boss.

In my experience, the spell of clarity is something only the designated party mage ever has slotted, and only ever will use once the party has not only engaged something with a fear aura, but when party members are already being feared. The rest of the time, everyone is told to bring potions because it simply doesn't last long enough for a caster to bother slotting it for anything less than a dire emergency where its retreat or die.
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Cortex » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:43 pm

Don't know if it was mentioned before in this thread, but clarity potions are sold by a certain easily accessible NPC.
:)

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Kuma » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:22 pm

And can now be made in stacks of five with cooking.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Lorkas » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:26 pm

Durvayas wrote:In my experience, the spell of clarity is something only the designated party mage ever has slotted, and only ever will use once the party has not only engaged something with a fear aura, but when party members are already being feared.
That's a big mistake, since clarity doesn't remove fear after it's already been applied.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Silent Handshake » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:35 pm

Prot. evil/good in any was too much now it is nerfed it makes more sense and yes it is still very much useful thank you, perhaps not for beafed up powerbuilds (in any way or form) but even though my character got high saves, i would much rather have that +5 than nothing at all.
the spell was annoying for evil players (likely also good) that it was so damned easy to counter them just with one lvl 1 spell.

also to add to the 3.5 didnt they just change the harm and heal spells to 3.5 also?

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:17 pm

Yeah, but that's not a giga engine change. That's more Mithreas' personal taste than anything, and a generally good change.

My point was, generally, that I don't mind discussions on spell balance in general; everyone's got a different idea of what is balanced and what isn't. What I do not like is claims that we are "supposed to be operating a 3.5e system" and that as a result, anything less is shortchanging us somehow. Argue that PfA is too weak because the bonus isn't significant all you want, and all I will do is disagree with you, and say that +5 will saves are fine for a level 1 spell.

Argue that we need 10 minutes per level of full mind spell immunity because "That's what gigaschatten intended us to have" and I will probably wonder what form of temporary insanity you had when you were posting. I will occasionally be blunt about pointing this out, but that's just how it's going to go.

Edit: Also, harm/heal are only quasi 3.5e right now. Arelith scales both these spells all the way up to Caster Level 30 providing 300 damage/healing, and disallows a saving throw. 3.5e caps them both at 150, and allows a will save for half against the damage. I'd argue that the 3.5 versions got nerfed too hard, and we're sitting at a good balance on those spells right now.

@Durvayas: No, you don't need PfA to provide mind immunity, unless you somehow forgot that will saves are a thing. Also, the Arelith drow pantheon precisely matches the drow pantheon in my 3.0 FR Faiths and Pantheons book, which matches the 3.5e faiths and pantheons book. This is also true for all of the surface gods, with the exception of the addition of some 4.0 entities, like QoAaD. This is because the deities are the same across 3.0 and 3.5, the only thing that changed were some of the mechanics.
But on the topic at hand... I wish PvA worked properly because of how absolutely broken fear auras
Except that pre-nerf, fear auras, or at least the strong ones you actually had to worry about, were not affected by PfA, due to a specific mechanical exepmption. The number of times I saw parties wipe because they though PfA would save them from a dragon fear aura was both satisfying and delightful.


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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Morderon » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:01 pm

I only read up to Kuma's post (for now)

I just looked at the script resource and PfA and CfA are both hour duration. Circle just has that nasty AoE Bug.

I also like the change. However it has stopped me from preparing it/taking it. Just no longer find it as beneficial as other schools of that circle and when mind saves are heavy I'd just much rather use lesser mind blank.

I feel that 12 mins is about right for the spell. And bull's strength/cat's grace and the like last way to long from a wand.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by dirza » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:12 pm

Heh, the problem isnt the save as such but the thing a damn 1 keeps rolling too often, when fighting mobs it matters little if your will is 20 or 7 cause that 1 will pop in several times and you get butchered by otherwise relative harmless npc to you :P

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Kuma » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:12 pm

Morderon wrote:I fell that 12 mins is about right for the spell. And bull's strength/cat's grace and the like last way to long from a wand.
Any alteration of the zoo buffs will be a pretty huge thing and I really would recommend against it. Not only would it require rebalancing all of the magic item creation costs, but it's effectively a very big nerf to slot-preparing casters, a buff to infinite casters (as if they need them), and a MASSIVE nerf to non-casters.

plz dont

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Morderon » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:25 pm

They're not being changed. More so a comment that just because PfA doesn't last 90 mins RL time doesn't mean the duration is terrible.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Kuma » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:26 pm

Morderon wrote:They're not being changed. More so a comment that just because PfA doesn't last 90 mins RL time doesn't mean the duration is terrible.
dont scare me like that darling

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:33 pm

CragOrion wrote: EDIT: Can someone please link me to a 3.0 PHB? I only have access to the 3.5
If I can find one of decent PDF quality, I'll link it up. A quick search didn't find many active hostings, though.


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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by CragOrion » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:40 am

you guys mentioned there were fixes for the aura bug that messes up MCAA. Anyone know where to find it so we can make a quick and painless suggestion to staff to put it in?

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Tashalar » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:33 am

CragOrion wrote:you guys mentioned there were fixes for the aura bug that messes up MCAA. Anyone know where to find it so we can make a quick and painless suggestion to staff to put it in?
MCAA is/has been looked at by Sincra. Whether the code we sent in is implemented (if it works with the rest of the server code, though Sinc is up for adjusting it to do so if needed) is up to Irongron and his team!
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by P Three » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:19 pm

Durvayas wrote:
If we were in 4.0 the drow pantheon would consist entirely of Lolth, Vhaeraun, and Elistreaee. Because that very noticably has changed
Nope. Eilistraee was killed by Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent, tricked by Lolth, as she inhabited Quilé Veladorn as an avatar. She had already had Vhaeraun killed. As of 5.0 they are both alive again, but it's not known in what state or how they have changed if they have.
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Mithreas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:33 am

There is code in there to deal with the area bug, though it's evidently not working if this thread is to be believed.

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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by CragOneEye » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:03 am

Mithreas wrote:There is code in there to deal with the area bug, though it's evidently not working if this thread is to be believed.

Arelith is officially at 3.0e, though I've introduced bits of 4e flavour here and there where I liked it.
Guessing pretty much the fey lore is the 4.0ed, and wait what I thoguth was 3.5ed or you now officially 3.5 ed is invalid when comes to FR lore for FR?
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by Mithreas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:44 am

Yes.

That doesn't mean we won't appropriate bits of it here or there, but you should assume 3.0 rather than 3.5 wherever the two are in conflict.
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Re: Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

Post by CragOneEye » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:58 am

Mithreas wrote:Yes.

That doesn't mean we won't appropriate bits of it here or there, but you should assume 3.0 rather than 3.5 wherever the two are in conflict.
Cool, thanks for the official stance on it been a lot of confusion between players on the server.
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