Fix the Prot vs. Alignment please

[CragOrion]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3886&p=31796#p31796

Am I alone in thinking this?

[Cortex]

I like it the way it is now.

[CragOrion]

why? the protection it does give is not substantial enough to make any kind of difference to combat, and it has a short duration for UMD utilization. How is that useful at all?

[JediMindTrix]

I like turtles.

What's this about shortened duration? I haven't noticed such. Protection from Evil covered a wide array of enemies, including PCs, rendering you immune to mind affecting spells against basically all of the PvE enemies and half the server in PCs. This not only encouraged cheesy/cheaty/poor monster design by means of changing alignments of creatures to one's that didn't fit, but basically stripped some monsters of what made them dangerous. The change was good, and +5 to saving throws is pretty hefty as long as you're not fighting creatures with much higher CRs (ideally, anyway).

However, given the Circle from Alignment is rounds/level, and circle spells are still laggy (NWNWiki keeps telling me these spells have vault-fixes, has this ever been looked into?), perhaps that should have it's duration boosted to turns/level.

[Scurvy Cur]

+5 to will saves is a pretty significant bonus, Crag. Nearly enough to take a class with bad will progression and make it equal to a class with good will progression.

Honestly, I'm very fond of this change. Prior to it, will saves were something a lot of people felt comfortable completely ignoring, because they could crutch their way through on PfA wands and potions. Now you should at least avoid dumpstering the saving throw. PfA is enough to keep someone with a mediocre save safe most of the time, but not enough to cover for a god-awful save. That's pretty good.

Also, it still lasts hours per level, which is pretty good.

Saving throw based casters are sort of hurting at the moment anyhow: artifacts are cranking saving throws through the roof on everyone, monsters have had their saves slowly and steadily increased to keep save or die spells from working reliably, etc. The last thing we need is to revert to the old situation where anyone that wanted to seriously use mind spells had to go neutral to avoid being countered completely by a level 1 spell.

tl;dr:

Buy will save feats, get will save gear, or don't take three classes with crappy will progression on an 8 wis character and expect to stroll through mind affecting spells.

[CragOrion]

Yes, it gave good protection, but most people that really needed it(who naturally had low will saves) had to use it with UMD. That means its biggest utilization came through wands and scrolls. Wands and scrolls cast at caster level 2. That means it will only last for 12 IRL minutes, which is not that long. So you end up using alot of charges from your wand, or having to buy alot of scrolls. The higher cost balances it out.

And DnD 3.5 says Magic Circle is supposed to be 10 mintues/level. Far longer than what we get.
The hardcoded NWN says hours/level. If its supposed to be any kind of useful at all, make it last longer, else noone has any reason to use it over clarity or mind blank.

To the shortened duration of PfA, it was shortened about the same time Darkfire was, yeeeeears ago. Grab a lowbie cleric and test it out. PfA will drop off sooner than your other hour/level spells will.

[Scurvy Cur]

NWN is a 3.0 engine. You can tell by how you still roll 1d4+1 for your stat buffs, but get them for hours per level.

And in 3.0, the duration on circle against alignment and protection from alignment are 1 hour/level.

You have not lost a second from what you are supposed to have had.

Also, 12 minutes per charge on a cheap wand is frankly super reasonable. Even assuming completely mediocre/trashy caster levels on creating the wand, you're still looking at probably 25-30 charges. Not that hard to keep it running on a budget.

[CragOrion]

except that giga's engine was created in part to update the server to 3.5

EDIT:

And in 3.0, the duration on circle against alignment and protection from alignment are 1 hour/level.

You have not lost a second from what you are supposed to have had.

If that is true, then yes we have, since the durations for both were shortened on Arelith.

[Scurvy Cur]

Uhhh...

What? That's absurd, bizzare, and really dumb.

There's nothing the giga engine updated to anything close to 3.5

You still have d10 HP and crappy skill progression on rangers.

You still have 4 skills + int on bard, instead of 6+ int.

You still get stat buffs for pretty much the whole day, rather than 1 minute/level as per 3.5.

Paladins still smite evil once per day, 3 with extra smiting, rather than picking up to 5/day smites.

There are none of the 3.5e fighter feats like greater weapon focus/specialization or weapon class mastery.

[CragOrion]

Really man?

seriously?

At what point did respect get thrown out the window?

I believe it was the description included on the Giga engine's download page on the old NWN Vault that said it updated things to 3.5

But hey, lets keep namecalling. There's no possible way somebody else could know something you don't already know.

[Scurvy Cur]

Observations that you're wrong will stop when you stop being wrong. End of story.

Regardless, there's not a single feature on Arelith that the Giga engine updated from 3.0 to 3.5e, because that would take some seriously massive overhauling of classes/feats/spells to a scale that we just can't manage.

[CragOrion]

Gotta say I'm pretty surprised and dissappointed, Scurvy. Up until now, I've had alot of respect for you as a player. Its one thing to give someone information they may not know, or to point out something they may not be considering, but to just say it's dumb without asking for any kind of explanation of why they say something?

I expected more from you, man.

[Kuma]

Anything that makes Illusion a viable spell school is something I approve of. Now it's potentially useful in PvP. Shame about PvE, what with everything having absurd saves.

The vs Alignment spells are hours/level. Magic Circle just wears off disgustingly early due to how bad Certain Servers (cough) handle magic circle auras on PCs. I have absolutely no idea why Arelith is the worst I've ever encountered for that particular bug. PfA is hours tho.

But hey, lets keep namecalling. There's no possible way somebody else could know something you don't already know.

I doubt he was calling you things, more flagging what you appeared to have noticed as incorrect. Saying that you're "bizarre" is a pretty odd insult, at any rate.

EDIT 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO

No, there's nothing to suggest we're in 3.5, as far as the mechanics go. Except I think that Warlocks get d8. If we WERE, Rangers would be buffed pretty awesomely.

[Scurvy Cur]

And I had expected you to manage at least a little willingness to consider that there's not a ton of basis for considering this a 3.5e server, nor for demanding changes to server mechanics to fit 3.5e as a result.

There are no features on the server that in any way reflect an adherence to 3.5e D&D rules, no basis for claiming that we've been transitioned over, and thus no grounds to claim that deviations from those rules represent an injustice that needs to be addressed.

I don't actually need you to explain where you're getting that the Giga engine is a 3.5e update, because it isn't, and never was.

Edit: Kuma is right on this one. My objection, and selection of adjectives was not for you personally, Crag, but for the observation, which I believe to be completely unsupportable and groundless, that you made. Perfectly reasonable people make perfectly bizarre observations all the time. There are good ideas, there are bad ideas. This was neither. This was so far out of left field, with so little factual support or evidence, that I was left a little dumbfounded trying to reason where you got the impression that the Giga engine was a 3.5e update.

[CragOrion]

As I said, It was in the description for the engine on the NWN vault. It may be true that Arelith was never meant to adhere to 3.5, but when something is sold as a 3.5 engine, you can't tell me the idea that it is a 3.5 engine is a dumb one. Mislead? Maybe. Not dumb. That was what irked me, not the bizzare comment. It was the "really dumb" part. I don't generally see you speaking to people like that, whether describing them or their conceptions. Say what you will, but calling a person's idea or conception "really dumb" without trying to see where they are coming from is very insulting.

Now, I wont challenge your vast knowledge of the game mechanics. I'll concede that you are probably right about the engine not being 3.5, and just attribute the faulty vault description to Giga just being Giga.

I will also say this: I just tested the PfA spell against another hours/level spell and they had the same duration. This means that it was changed back at some point. I do recall an update announcement years ago that it was shortened, and years ago when I created both Chuck and Ash, I noticed the PfA spells dropping off early. It's the whole reason why I started preparing extended versions of the spell instead, so they would last at least as long as the other buffs. At some point, the PfA must have been changed back to the standard duration.

That said, it doesn't really matter. UMD utilizations of the spell still only last 12 minutes and cause characters to have to use alot of resources to keep the buff going. Not as much resources as if they were using clarity wands, but then, they don't protect your mind from EVERYONE like a clarity does. This high cost, I believe, balances the high usefulness of something that flatly counters mind effects from 2/3 of alignments.

I will also disagree that the +5 makes a substantial difference. It may at early levels, but not when you start fighting stronger things that have higher DC's.

EDIT: Can someone please link me to a 3.0 PHB? I only have access to the 3.5

[Seven Sons of Sin]

(In an ideal world, I'd love Arelith to be reflective of Pathfinder philosophy,

- it is extremely difficult to be immune to anything
- it is extremely difficult to ever have a 'save or die' spell go off

In an ideal world.)

+5 on saving throws is huge. To reiterate Scurvy Cur, the changes to PfA shift focus on just making every build a UMD build (even though you're still heavily encouraged to have it 99% of the time), but actually focus on save progression.

Saves are as important as AC, AB, etc. It's good to see mechanical changes that put them on the same pedestal.

[Durvayas]

There are no features on the server that in any way reflect an adherence to 3.5e D&D rules, no basis for claiming that we've been transitioned over, and thus no grounds to claim that deviations from those rules represent an injustice that needs to be addressed.

Pretty ignorant thing to say.

All our deities are from the 3.5 timeline.

[CragOneEye]

There are no features on the server that in any way reflect an adherence to 3.5e D&D rules, no basis for claiming that we've been transitioned over, and thus no grounds to claim that deviations from those rules represent an injustice that needs to be addressed.

Pretty ignorant thing to say.

All our deities are from the 3.5 timeline.

Warlock and Favoured soul are 3.5 Base classes.

[Sazu]

My one gripe about the way Prot vs. alignment used to be was the unfairness of it. When a level 3 mage can make himself immune to an epic lvl dominate monster spell, we have issues.

How fair is it that such a potent spell should be blocked by something any noob mage can cast, and lowbie fighter can drink a brew of, use a scroll against?

While I understand you must be frustrated being hit with mind spells, I'd rather see the save increased rather than being flat out immune to all mind spells no matter how powerful or how much a character devoted to the school of magics which encompass mind altering spells.

[CragOneEye]

My one gripe about the way Prot vs. alignment used to be was the unfairness of it. When a level 3 mage can make himself immune to an epic lvl dominate monster spell, we have issues.

How fair is it that such a potent spell should be blocked by something any noob mage can cast, and lowbie fighter can drink a brew of, use a scroll against?

While I understand you must be frustrated being hit with mind spells, I'd rather see the save increased rather than being flat out immune to all mind spells no matter how powerful or how much a character devoted to the school of magics which encompass mind altering spells.

One word, dispels.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

There are no features on the server that in any way reflect an adherence to 3.5e D&D rules, no basis for claiming that we've been transitioned over, and thus no grounds to claim that deviations from those rules represent an injustice that needs to be addressed.

Pretty ignorant thing to say.

All our deities are from the 3.5 timeline.

No, they aren't actually. Some of of them are from 4.0 when it comes to source material. Most notably fey related things. A number of areas of the Forgotten Realms never got an update in 3.5 or after and so use older source material that people have also added to the server. It's a mixed bag. And that is Entirely in fluff and setting material.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before you start making claims yourself as it has to do with mechanical engine related features and not the fluff that the Dm and Dev team have implemented on top of things which include the Dev made custom classes but still use the NWN engine and the modifications that Giga did.

I haven't visited the forums in awhile. But I have come back to find people being Outrageously snippy to each other in almost Every major thread. Scurvy has admittedly said nothing beyond what he normally does, which usually doesn't provoke an upset response.

I am starting to think this deluge in negativity is starting to affect a lot of things, like the basic ability to disagree and not be snappy or making it personal somehow or it causes the inability for Some people to resist adding fuel to a sputtering fire. I am getting Really tired of seeing this.

So perhaps we can stay on topic.

I think the change was a good one, but I also think the rest of the server hasn't caught up to it. A lot of older spawns were balanced for its protection and a large number of casters spam mind effecting spells because of it.

When you change something across the board, there is a lot of catching up to do in Every variable that it influences. One reason I groan when I eye a lot of suggestions down in the forum box because a lot of them seem to come from a 'It would be really nice FOR ME if-' with little consideration to the cascade effect it would cause.

Giga's engine has never outside of the text you found, made any claim to update the vanilla mechanics to 3.5, so I can see where Scurvy called the observation perhaps a little out of left field. It would not be the first time that the Vault outright lied as to the contents of its files before. It's never fun to pick up something you think must be right because 'it says so on the box' and then someone is like 'Man, those aren't Cheerios! Those are Wheaties!'

I think if it was, a lot of things would be Very different. As it stands, the server does have a lot of 3.5 aspects to it (most notably its fluff, as 3.5 is the accepted Fluff Books for most people) but the engine is what it is.

I think what you should suggest, if UMD is the issue for you Crag, is making the caster level of wands and scrolls higher. That will also make them more expensive to make but would take care of the issue of length. It also means that investing in saves Is a thing but the basins make it easy enough to tack on some will saves to your gear.

[Sazu]

While casting dispel they'll be charging you and in your face.

Meanwhile the new version allows someone who specializes in enchantments or illusion to pop off a decent spell and stop the threat, but also allows the fighter to charge and maybe will save against the spell.

[CragOneEye]

While casting dispel they'll be charging you and in your face.

Meanwhile the new version allows someone who specializes in enchantments or illusion to pop off a decent spell and stop the threat, but also allows the fighter to charge and maybe will save against the spell.

You have several spells to protect you from such and really if it's a lvl 3? (which was your argument to begin with) chances are they won't be able to hurt you all that much. If it's someone close to your level range? You have things like greater sanctuary, time stop, haste, Improved Invisibility, acid shield.

[CragOrion]

DSP, thankyou for your perspective, you're probably right that things just need to be caught up across the board.

I do wish there was a higher level solution, since Magic Circle's bug makes it pretty useless.

[JediMindTrix]

I do wish there was a higher level solution, since Magic Circle's bug makes it pretty useless.

There are readily available fixes for these spells. Like Kuma pointed out, I'm not sure why Arelith hasn't jumped on them. Why reinvent the wheel? *Shrug*