RE: Statement of Intent Discussion

[Whitewood]

The way i do it, to prevent pausing to type and potentially die in the middle of combat or rp, i personally set up different emotes via macro on my hotbar to do different things, making it easier.
So, i might have one for *Glancing around the area* , or i might have one for *Madly dashes to fling himself at the enemy* or, a battlecry, saying something about his diety or some violent thing etc etc.It just takes creativity.

As for the Skype communication during game, rp and tense situations, i think its just bad policy and it merely makes you a rather shoddy player if you're just going to talk over skype about whats happening in game, rather than focusing on the game, and reacting to things that happen minute by minute, playing YOUR chosen Character, rather than yourself. You are the character, playing what you designed in game, weather it be rolling a Orog fighter, or a drow wizard, or a sneaky cowardly goblin ninja/rogue who snatches loot when the battle is going on, You have to play your character how its going on in game.

You cannot see the characters glowing name in text when you hit tab, Take in consideration of the buildings, terrain, the angles at which your character can see and hear.

I experienced alot of speculated metagaming back when Udos(Complete and ruined* Grond and Pit town was still around, it honestly made me frustrated as heck, not going to be pointing fingers or saying names. I'll give an example,
Subject: Slaving

When the potential to have a captured slave arises, successfully or unsuccessfully, or if their alone or dont have any magical means to communication to friends or allies. The slave would be in the underdark for. . .lets say around 5 minutes, 15 mins to 30 minutes later, theres an entire warparty of surfacers looking for said kidnapped person. The end result is the kidnapped person going free -Most- of the time, frustrating yes, but its more frustrating on the part that how do all these people know where kidnapped person is and that they were kidnapped. Get my rambling here??

[Sazu]

^This pretty much sums it up

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I agree with most of the points presented- but I think there is a clear difference between role-playing in skype (which can be exclusionary), and benefiting from skype if the group you're hunting with is all in the same call, and you can use skype to say something like "hey, look out, I'm throwing a fireball."

One does not mean you cannot be part of a hunting group without skype- but in an internet age where most every gamer I know does have skype, it makes little sense not to benefit from it if all involved do- and I've been a part of multiple groups that I've not met before all being very welcoming in Skype.

I am by no means supporting magical come rushing to the rescue RP that was discussed in Skype- but I'm pretty staunchly in favor of not being penalized for my inability to grow a third arm and manage both two-handed typing and the mouse for combat targeting. Because of the way NWN is designed around the mouse, it is literally impossible to RP and fight at the same time, unless you either set up a series of macros in advance, or you learn to type with one hand.

My typing speed is actually in the ballpark of what I consider to be way above average, but In a PvE environment where two seconds of inaction can literally cause you to go from full health to zero, this interaction would not happen at all without skype, which means you aren't excluding anyone from RP, because at that moment there would be no interaction otherwise, anyway.

I absolutely agree that from there it's still the responsibility of the player to put to text what was said aloud, but I do not think this is the same thing as trying to substitute skype for role-play.

If the official stance on this is that I'm doing it wrong, I'll stop, but I can't help but feel that someone goofed up hard and now the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater.

[DestroyerOTN]

Woah now. Some people seem to be WAY misconstruing the metagame thing.

I'll explain. I'll do it using some words that some of the administrative team (Want to say Watchtower?) used at a point:

>Metagame, remember, exists in two forms. These are good and bad. The terms seem relative and subjective, so for the sake of argument; we'll assume the 'good' meta is allowed (won't get slapped), the 'bad' meta is not (will likely get you banned)

>'Good' Metagame occurs with OOC premeditation without destroying immersion/the game world/the flow of the story. Cooperating with the members of your faction so that you can all schedule the time for an event? Arranging a meeting place so that an entire group can go grind? The above shown example of going to find the friend of yours that you 'haven't seen for hours' (provided you're supposed to have expected them)? That's good. These sorts of things enrich the play experience for others, expand audiences, and allow more prolific conflict than just "Oh. He's not around. Oh well."

>'Bad' Metagame occurs with OOC premeditation/influenced action to affect the game world. Either maliciously, immersion-breakingly, or with disregard for external influence. Easily distinguished from the other variant, this derivative prevents the influence of others upon your story, your actions, and is a far-cry from the "my character acts like ______" by being things which may - or may not - actually make sense for the concept and level of knowledge had IG.

>'Bad' Metagame occurs in degrees. This stretches from the extent of "having a character that knows more about _______ than lore skill/concept dictates it should", to "knowing a name before they call it/while guised"; from "Preplanning an event - START TO FINISH - from the get-go, on ALL fronts; regardless of server expanse, player influence, ulterior involvement, or what side the characters are on", to "Discounting players based off of who they once played".

While we're all bringing 8chan level salt onto these forums, let me be the first to remind you that we all know exactly what kind of thing this is talking about.

At least, 8chan has some pretty theories. I highly advise anyone unfamiliar check it out and look at their surroundings. It's doubly obvious when it happens.

However, as an admin, I see way too many incidents of people metagaming on Skype groups - agreeing as players how characters will work together to achieve some goal. This is particularly prevalent in faction conflicts.

This refers to bad metagame. A thing which Mithreas and the team have spoken to cracking down upon for a long while now which is simply seen as a lot more prominent. Suffice to say: The majority of Arelithians, to my reckoning, are innocent of this.

The only people who need to be worried are the people that are physically guilty of the following form of bad meta:

agreeing as players how characters will work together to achieve some goal.

It's not so much about 'convenience'. There are literally sects of Team Good and Team Evil (and DMs from prior cycles, whom have been summarily cycled out through a -progressively- strengthening interview process (See above on 8chan. The leaks were delicious)) that plan, OOC, together before an event happens, decide what their characters will do to the other characters/the NPCs/the DM objective/so on, and then -DO IT-.

So my advice? Take chances. Don't pick those who are necessarily all your friends, don't tell the other side how they're supposed to receive you, set reasonable regulations for your evil plots/holy purging, and you will likely steer clear of this hammer of justice. If you, as a villain, can recall a point in your day that you talked to the -players- (not characters) of someone on an opposing team and talked about your latest evil plot? You're doin' it wrong.

There. I bit. Inb4 salt.

[Sazu]

A sad fact about users of such OOC programs is usually these same players tend to stick together through the births and deaths of multiple factions.

I like having OOC friends, truly I do(and I'd say I have a fair amount).

But I've seen instances where the same players lose in a faction battle or whatever and all they do is every single one of them drop those characters, and roll up all new characters that make up an entirely new faction.

While I doubt all those types of players use Skype or whatever, it's certainly where I'd start looking.

Me personally I like to make new characters with new playernames so I can enjoy different company, get a feel for other people, and even avoid the OOC playerhate that sometimes occurs. But that's just me.

[Scurvy Cur]

Some stuff

I am of course not the person who can answer whether or not this is wrong as per server rules, but I will share my observations and opinions.

First, I don't think this particular use of Skype falls under the same sort of behavior that Mithreas' statement of intent is trying to prevent. However...

It has been my observation that even using skype to coordinate during farming trips, dungeon crawls, etc. usually absolutely trashes the quality of the RP that goes on during that time, and encourages more of the tendency to view PvE activities as separate from RP. I think this is a big shortcoming in terms of overall RP quality that a lot of players who are otherwise quite talented RPers suffer from, and it causes their RP to be significantly worse than it otherwise could be.

You can usually tell the difference pretty clearly. The group that's on Skype rarely says Anything IC for the duration of the trip, or if they do, it's meme-grade garbage. By contrast, groups communicating strictly in game tend to have lively dialog, react IC to their surroundings, etc. and generally are fully in character for the duration. Now, it is just my personal opinion, but I think that it would be fully justified and in keeping with Arelith's RPR guidelines for a DM that observed a party silently grinding away to set the entire group's RPR down to 10: They are demonstrating that they are not in character all the time, regardless of how well they roleplay when not engaged in PvE.

If you can chat in Skype without the quality of your RP suffering (and usually suffering drastically), then more power to you. If, however, the quality of your RP drops precipitously then it is entirely fair for you to be assessed for the decline in quality.

Some other stuff

As vehemently as I've disagreed with you elsewhere, I strongly agree with this sentiment. It is especially noticeable when a brand new faction hits the server, pre-organized, and ready to roll. Often times, these are very difficult factions for other players to get involved with, because the whole structure is in place prior to any of the characters being created, which closes off opportunities for new players that are not part of the group to get involved. I believe this to be very detrimental to the server.

[Silent Handshake]

YES PLEASE DO SOMETHING AGAINST THEM SKYPE GROUPS! really they are often just a bunch of Ducks that only complaints.

[Cortex]

YES PLEASE DO SOMETHING AGAINST THEM SKYPE GROUPS! really they are often just a bunch of Ducks that only complaints.

[rat0a]

A sad fact about users of such OOC programs is usually these same players tend to stick together through the births and deaths of multiple factions.

I like having OOC friends, truly I do(and I'd say I have a fair amount).

But I've seen instances where the same players lose in a faction battle or whatever and all they do is every single one of them drop those characters, and roll up all new characters that make up an entirely new faction.

While I doubt all those types of players use Skype or whatever, it's certainly where I'd start looking.

Me personally I like to make new characters with new playernames so I can enjoy different company, get a feel for other people, and even avoid the OOC playerhate that sometimes occurs. But that's just me.

Agree

They are usually the same people with new logins that for some reason can't let go

Myself I usually avoid my friends from IG from Y character if I'm playing X character the only reason both of my characters know Z person is by a chance and will not be forced...I hate when people go on tells and say Log X because I think is better for the hunt without even knowing him/her and forcing an introduction.

[Durvayas]

Where does this put people who use skype for factional organization reasons, like OOC scheduling of RP and such?(which it is vastly better at being used for across time zones, rather than using messageboards for entirely OOC chatter when trying to coordinate.) IE: if I, say tried to reboot the sorcere with the help of four different wizards. Am I at risk of being penalized for using a means of instant communication that keeps a convenient log of the convo to see what works best between everyone's time zone or...?

Because the alternative is we blow 30 pieces of paper or more over several days posting on a board or using tells when we catch eachother. I'm not actually doing this, but you get the idea.

[Arther Goodmane]

Voice to text for Neverwinter Nights?...isn't that larping?

Since I started role playing, my typing hasn't exactly become secretary speed, but it has imprrives maddively...I mean, it gad inproved massibely...I mean...

Anyway I think we get the idea. Maybe we can put this topic to rest?

[JediMindTrix]

I hardly RP while adventuring because I am focused on trying to stay alive. My emotes/words pay attention to this. I find full on conversations in fights for a character's life to be out of place. So is a DM going to observe this and say 'skyping!' and dock my RPR?

[Lorkas]

Where does this put people who use skype for factional organization reasons, like OOC scheduling of RP and such?(which it is vastly better at being used for across time zones, rather than using messageboards for entirely OOC chatter when trying to coordinate.)

Messages in the -faction menu are exactly for OOC communication that is supported by the server. You can even make a separate temporary faction for the express purpose of coordinating this sort of thing without having to compromise ICness of the message boards or messing up the roster of an existing faction.

Using Skype to coordinate this sort of thing means that any players who don't have Skype or don't share their Skype names might just get left out of things (it has happened to me). Far better to use the in-game means that everyone who plays Arelith has access to.

Regarding a lot of the fears here, I think we need to have faith in the good sense of the DMs and devs. People who have achieved 20, 30, or 40 RPR aren't suddenly going to get totally docked of their RPR for having only 2 hands, as someone put it above. I doubt they will expect us to constantly emote during battle. I mean, people reached those RPRs without constant emoting during battle, and this announcement wasn't about emoting, but metagaming.

[Cortex]

I remember the days when skype wasn't a thing and the type of drama was another.

[High Primate]

I very much support Mithreas's efforts, here. My only worry is that I or someone else will be accused of using Skype when they in fact weren't.

[Marsi]

I hardly RP while adventuring because I am focused on trying to stay alive. My emotes/words pay attention to this. I find full on conversations in fights for a character's life to be out of place. So is a DM going to observe this and say 'skyping!' and dock my RPR?

You can still roleplay while being conservative in dialogue and emotes -- without them at all, even. Any DM worth his salt will understand that.

A simple example is not jogging when unobserved. You're staying in character and you don't need constant emotes or rambling soliloquies to prove it.

[JediMindTrix]

A simple example is not jogging when unobserved. You're staying in character and you don't need constant emotes or rambling soliloquies to prove it.

How is jogging out of character by any means?

[furryn]

A simple example is not jogging when unobserved. You're staying in character and you don't need constant emotes or rambling soliloquies to prove it.

How is jogging out of character by any means?

I have an old mage, with a low con score. If he jogs everywhere, say, between the tower and cordor, it's out of character. He can run for his life when needed, but he's an old man.

[JediMindTrix]

I have an old mage, with a low con score. If he jogs everywhere, say, between the tower and cordor, it's out of character. He can run for his life when needed, but he's an old man.

I get the idea that you fleshed out. I dislike the blanket statement that jogging is breaking character.

[Lorkas]

Jogging sometimes when there is a good IC reason is not breaking character, but jogging everywhere all the time would be really strange. I don't know a single person who runs everywhere they go in real life, and I know a couple marathon runners.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

I think group calls in Skype is the issue mostly being addressed here and not using skype as a text medium to talk to people.

Mind, text mediums outside of the game have been and will always be used for communication, scheduling, just chatting with OOC friends, and honestly is even Harder to penalize.

Frankly, I don't think it should be. I know I minimize out to tell people through steam (I don't use skype for anything but co-op games but I do have steam!) that I am RPing and can't do Dota games at the moment, etc. Or talk to someone I know that just got home and ask how they are doing while RPing. I even chat about RP with some or complain about my slow leveling or to comment on funny dialogue I ran into (I got some great tells from a drow player the other day I had to share, for example). This is not an issue. This shouldn't be an issue unless metagaming comes of it, which can be caught in game through logs.

Verbally talking to people through a mic, or to multiple people via a mic while RPing? This is the crux of the issue, I think.

I also think it's harder for people to avoid metagaming when they are getting information verbally than through a text based medium. Text we are Removed from. We read, comprehend, and then TYPE answers. Verbal is right to the brain, even if you are half listening. I know when I have been writing things and people try and talk to me, I will accidentally transcribe things I am saying or hearing from them at times. It happens.

Metagaming is one of those things that there is accidental and there is intentional. Intentional metagaming will always happen because some people just won't stop themselves from getting the upper hand, even when they know better. Accidental however Can be handled by being conscious of what we do and avoiding mediums that promote such.

I think skype calls promote both, but Most importantly promotes a toxic environment to RP and sometimes other players (I've seen a few cases of the 'echo chamber' as Scurvy called it in action). So finally going 'Please don't, this is counter to the well being of our server here' on skype calls is a Good step. Because the type of metagaming coming of skype groups is a Different sort. It isn't strictly 'I got this information, I shall now USE IT' which can be caught in logs. This thread has touched on some of the ways it Has influenced things for the worse. I think the statement of intent is addressing that.

[KregorRanger]

I agree with most of the points presented- but I think there is a clear difference between role-playing in skype (which can be exclusionary), and benefiting from skype if the group you're hunting with is all in the same call, and you can use skype to say something like "hey, look out, I'm throwing a fireball."

Or you could just say it. In game. Doing it in a voice chat gives you an unfair advantage with your buddies both in PvE and in PVP — even moreso in PvP, because the opponent can't hear you shout it. It becomes OOC and metagame.

//Soapbox time

I will say this — Mith's statement on the matter stimulated my thoughts, along with some other OOC factors and drama that have gone on in my recent gaming time on Arelith. My life gaming was much simpler and saner, before I got talked into installing Skype on my system. When I started Kregor, I'd never installed it, nor any other gaming chat program (Steam etc) on my system, at all.

At the point that my first faction — the Bramble Watch — was at its peak, I had no means of external communication at all, and the OOC communication was confined to the forums and the -faction messages. It had three pages of members, from doing nothing but pounding IC pavement and shaking IC hands and circulating IC messages. I can take pride in knowing that growth happened because of the IC efforts of the characters.

The things I've learned since installing Skype, are nothing pretty:

//TL;DR alert, but it may be worth the read for some

* It is exclusionary. Those who could be a part, who aren't a part of your circle of friends are the last to come to the table for plans. It's an unfair advantage for someone to join your group that could arguably play a better part in your group than some of your friends do.

* It colors your IC actions. First, the inherent mystery and thrill of discovery for another character is lost when you arrange to group up off game with a new faction. Second, your opinions and actions IC toward an IC enemy, or potential enemy, will be changed if they are also an OOC buddy — you can't avoid it, it will happen. Thirdly, the predictability factor dulls the intrigue of an interaction because you get a feel for your Skype buddies' actions, decisions, and motivations. Your reactions will change when RP involves an OOC contact. Guaranteed, and if it doesn't, then the reaction was premeditated in the first place.

* It's influential. Don't like the way something goes IC? You can beg a Skype buddy to modify the actions, or the outcome. And our need to be social creatures will inadvertently lead to compromise on both sides.

* It stagnates. You begin to gear your activities and decisions on your circle of OOC buddies. New activities become collusions between your friends, rather than IC motivations. Want to know why a faction that seems to burst at the seams at its inception fizzles out so quickly? Because group concepts falter in number as soon as the new car smell of it is gone.

* It's fake. When you get all excited about the IG happenings of a faction, conflict, etc, and then you come to find out that it was all an OOC collusion between players? It's the single most deflating thing for a persistent story. Persistent world stories are supposed to be built on IC reactions to IC events with IC motivations. Agreeing on the actions, or results of a conflict or event beforehand, or even during the event over an OOC channel? That's not a game, that's playwriting.

* It leads to OOC drama.

This. This is the absolute, single most poisonous thing about bringing your game OOC in chat groups. And it builds social disasters in so many ways.

Firstly, players get shunned because of OOC sentiments shared between other players. Even if the player changes username etc, once the word is out who it is, those with a gripe against that player will go to the point of changing existing RP in order to shun them again. OOC promises and threats constantly color what happens on-game. It can also lead to unhealthy relationships between players, both from a game standpoint, and a standpoint of your personal life. Guilty as charged for falling prey to the impact it can have on our personal life. I can boast(?) of such instances of drama from Arelith making my home life disastrous, and at the same time having the backsplash of it affecting things IC.

Your own mileage may vary, on how the OOC drama effects and impacts you, but in any degree, it is poison.

Gaming was an innocent, fun and IC thing before I installed Skype.

I intend it to be again. Skype is and will be purged from my gaming henceforth.

//end Soapbox

[Dinosaur Space Program]

Having read Kregor's post, I felt that I needed to add something.

I have exactly three people on my steam list that play Arelith. They are on my steam list because I enjoy talking to them for things outside of Arelith. I don't always play with them, I don't always include them. One is a RL friend I do just about everything with.

I have never used an outside text medium to schedule faction things, to contact and convince people on RP stuff (This OOC maneuver that I see often I despise, keep it IG people and IC!), and I find keeping it small and intimate for the people I Do associate with out of game keeps things Real.

I value them because I can check my RP with them. I can talk about lore/background/history of the setting with them. We can exchange funny bits of dialogue or events. We can talk about completely unrelated things to Arelith or about RP in general. I run a lot of PnP in this fashion (sometimes when I play Arelith admittedly and I am crafting... Hey! I emote!)

I feel like once you get out of your immediate friends and into your 'Arelith friends' on your list, things can get out of control. When I first played Arelith, ten years ago or so, I fell victem to the 'Hey we talked OOC once, let's all get on each other's MSN messenger list! Yay!' and found that all it did was promote vying for attention, OOC favors, OOC drama, you name it. I guess it's the same principle as with getting any large group of people together where they can talk behind each others backs.

Regardless, after the first 6 months of playing, I burned most of that list with fire. The next 6 months saw more weeding out. By the second year of playing I threw out the entire list but for four people, most of which I have also gotten rid of as time went on and by year four of playing, it was down to No One. Contact me in game or be a Real Friend.

It helped. It kept things where it should be, in the game. I have made pains to protect my privacy since, even making a new account name for every character I play to keep OOC momentum down of 'Oh you play that character? I automatically like you!' or 'Oh you play that character? That means you have an epic and I don't want to cross your other characters!'

Metagaming and OOC drama are sadly one of those things that Happen. Even if you do not promote or engage in either through careful consideration and actions, other people can Shove it on you. Minimizing its influences is the healthiest course we can take and skype group calls unfortunately seem to promote the worse of all of the above.

Edit: Forgot to add! I also don't really talk to people IG OOC. It ALSO helps. I keep it to fallout of PvP (I don't schedule My conflicts, I feel it's cheap and OOC), and to the three people on my steam list for joking around mostly. If you aren't throwing IC stuff at me? I am not interested in interaction. Though I do make a point of telling people when I cannot get back to them if they are waiting on me so they can not waste their RL time on nothing. I think of that as common courtesy though.

[grip]

Thanks, Kregor. Real shit there and it is appreciated. I too, was once part of a Skype group that was full of amazing RPers. They were (and still are, no doubt) some of the best folks I have met across internet land, but it screwed up the game for me at no fault of theirs. I had to check myself in a big way and so I destroyed Skype from my gaming experience on Arelith. I miss those guys a ton, but I'd far rather enjoy the game my way, than the group way. Many of the reasons were similar to Kregors'.
That was some years past, and since my gaming experiences have been more genuine to me, my characters are more true to themselves, and I am having far more fun on Arelith. YMMV, but that is mine.

[Sazu]

TBH I find the use of such OOC programs.... strange.

Maybe because I separate my IC from my OOC so thoroughly, I have little drama OOC wise in game. I always provide an ear for those players who I am OOC friends with. I've heard much drama from multiple players about stuff, and usually I try my best to quash bad feelings, cause truth is...

I have enough drama in my actual life, and I don't need it in my virtual one too. Arelith is my escape from drama, not a way to compound more drama on top of the drama I already got when I log off. Honestly even the drama that occurs in the forum is kept away from my in game actions.

The drama that happens in game is different... it's not real, and that allows me to be excited about it in a good way(especially when my character is in peril). The only time things turn sour is the moment it goes OOC.

I would even venture to say outright, that those people who use Skype and such, are doing only a disservice to themselves, as they have forgotten why Arelith and other RP servers exist in the first place.