RE: Statement of Intent Discussion

[Marsi]

Thanks, Kregor. Real shit there and it is appreciated. I too, was once part of a Skype group that was full of amazing RPers. They were (and still are, no doubt) some of the best folks I have met across internet land, but it screwed up the game for me at no fault of theirs. I had to check myself in a big way and so I destroyed Skype from my gaming experience on Arelith. I miss those guys a ton, but I'd far rather enjoy the game my way, than the group way. Many of the reasons were similar to Kregors'.
That was some years past, and since my gaming experiences have been more genuine to me, my characters are more true to themselves, and I am having far more fun on Arelith. YMMV, but that is mine.

well-put. this describes my own experience.

[Durvayas]

Where does this put people who use skype for factional organization reasons, like OOC scheduling of RP and such?(which it is vastly better at being used for across time zones, rather than using messageboards for entirely OOC chatter when trying to coordinate.)

Messages in the -faction menu are exactly for OOC communication that is supported by the server. You can even make a separate temporary faction for the express purpose of coordinating this sort of thing without having to compromise ICness of the message boards or messing up the roster of an existing faction.

Supported by the server, yes, but clunky, and requires logging in to the game to see any of the messages, which amounts to effectively phone-tag. Every bit as bad as the system of using a messageboard IC, except the only difference is you don't have to walk, and you don't need paper, oh yea, and its impossible to have parallel threads going. Everything stacks into a jumbled mess.

You can skype on your phone. No PC required, you can do it on the bus, you can do it in class(if the wifi is good), you can do it anywhere. If you are using -faction for OOC chatter and planning, how is that any different than using skype(beyond skype being a million times more efficient and convenient)? How is that any different than using the forums and just mailing multiple people at once?

I like the idea behind -faction messaging, its good for giving obvious information to newbs in a faction, things that anyone should know. "Oh hey, johnny's on vacation, so anyone who was planning things with him will have to reschedule, etc." But compared to skype, if you're using
-faction for OOC, its comparing a landline to a modern cell phone. Beyond a faction PBS, its worthless.

I'm not concerned with people using OOC chats to metagame. Metas gonna meta, I wish the DMs the best of luck hunting down and prosecuting, with reliable proof, the PvP hounds, the five minute rescuers, and the other scum we know play among us.

I'm only concerned with how it'll affect people logistically, and the logical argument behind inconveniencing players by enforcing the use of blatantly inferior lines of communication for things that are OOC anyways.

[Borgian Oligarchy]

via Imgflip Meme Maker

[Mithreas]

I pretty much agree completely with everything Kregor said. I'll draw a comparison - Tells.

When I joined Arelith, I did so from Glorwing, a server I was an admin on. Every time I played, I was involved in lots of Tell conversations while doing so.

I didn't realise how much this was detracting from my fun and immersion until I joined Arelith, where I knew nobody, and hence I had almost no Tell traffic. It was that realisation that spurred me to develop -notells, simply to give people the choice to have that experience.

Tells absolutely have a number of useful and important functions. But personally, I realised that frequently, long conversations in Tells were detracting from the game for me - that there were times that chatting was fine and times when I should keep my attention fully on the game.

I see Skype much the same way. Yes, it has its purpose and uses (every DM 1st interview is run on Skype, for example). But those uses do not, for me, include discussing my characters' actions or plans, and they definitely don't include being a distracting OOC channel while I'm IG!

[KregorRanger]

You can skype on your phone. No PC required, you can do it on the bus, you can do it in class(if the wifi is good), you can do it anywhere. If you are using -faction for OOC chatter and planning, how is that any different than using skype(beyond skype being a million times more efficient and convenient)? How is that any different than using the forums and just mailing multiple people at once?

You can also use the forum on a cell phone, on a bus, on a plane on a train, here or there or anywhere. How is Skype different? Because if you confine yourself to server-sanctioned communication (forum) you have to rely on people being logged into the forum, hitting refresh at the right time, and seeing your missive for immediate response.

In other words, forum messaging prevents unfair advantages like "Look out, I'm gonna throw a fireball." or, "Dude, just got kicked out of Cordor, I need people for a counterstrike, quick!"

[Durvayas]

"Look out, I'm gonna throw a fireball", would be faster to send in a tell. Unless your buddy had -notells on, there would be no reason to do it any other way unless one was using skype voicechat, which again, is not what I'm referring to here, and if they were using notells, they wouldn't bother to be on skype.
Metas gonna meta, I already said I'm not concerned with that. I'm talking logistics, and in that realm, your argument doesn't hold water.

In regards to OOC communication, especially for factions, why on earth would anyone restrict themselves to the forum and use its also rather poor multi-party inbox system? I already went over the benefits of not using the forum, which would still be a private discussion that would still be OOC even if you used it. In a logical sense, it makes absolutely no sense to gimp oneself and use the forum for something of that ilk. You'll literally be doing the same thing, but on a better platform. I don't see the logic behind it, there really is no logic behind it.

And before you use the reasoning, 'well not everyone has skype'. That is true. Its also true that not everyone uses the forums, and for good reason, I've seen more salt here than in a southern fast food joint lately.

So in short;

How is Skype different? Because if you confine yourself to server-sanctioned communication (forum) you have to rely on people being logged into the forum, hitting refresh at the right time, and seeing your missive for immediate response.

You seem of the illogical opinion that one aught not to use skype because its...better?

[KregorRanger]

You seem of the illogical opinion that one aught not to use skype because its...better?

For communication of game related topics, in particular timely matters, yes. Not because Skype is better, because it's an unfair advantage. Metas gonna meta you say. Great, yes they are. That's not a reason to avoid cracking down on a means and a medium that allows them to do it easier.

[Mithreas]

"Look out, I'm gonna throw a fireball", would be faster to send in a tell.

Not to a group.


Put it another way.

Party chat is disabled on Arelith.

So why do you think we'd be happy with a system that basically replicates party chat in a third party client?

[Durvayas]

You seem of the illogical opinion that one aught not to use skype because its...better?

For communication of game related topics, in particular timely matters, yes. Not because Skype is better, because it's an unfair advantage. Metas gonna meta you say. Great, yes they are. That's not a reason to avoid cracking down on a means and a medium that allows them to do it easier.

Then why not disable tells in their entirety? Gotta crack down, as you say.
------------------------------------
Another concern, is that if DMs use their stellar judgement to police this, what stops it from becoming a witch hunt?

Suppose two characters have been effectively raised together from lvl 1 and are now both lvl 20, they're hunting(really grinding, theres not a dungeon on the server you can run a single time and lvl on at that lvl) and its their, lets say fifth time doing this run. They know exactly how to work in tandem, after all, they've been doing it for months, and so don't emote much during battle because, well, battle, and aren't too much for small talk, lets blame personality.

Is it fair for a DM that hasn't been paying attention to them, hasn't been watching them forever, to just observe a moment and then go. 'they're totes on skype, gotta punish them'.
-So and so spends a lot of time idling, they've gotta be on skype, punish.
-This guild works really well, its gotta be colluding OOC.
-These drow aren't backstabbing eachother needlessly, gotta be something going on ooc.

Just what constitutes as evidence here beyond mere suspicion? Enlighten us to the process.

[roy rutan]

But I am very keen to reduce the amount of OOC collusion going on - either by having the team be more aggressive with RPR drops where people are playing avatars rather than characters, or through XP penalties for people involved in this sort of metagaming (or a mix of the two).

I fully support this. Mithreas I to think that the Skype Groups have a negative impact. there is enough bad mouthing, OOC information passing, and other general OOC crossing done in tells. allowing it to continue in skype only lessens the server. unfortunately there is not an effective way to monitor skype groups to be able to enforce bans or rpr drops.

I wish you luck in your intent.

[Whitewood]

I think something needs to be pushed out of the way.
Skype, third party program used to communicate and chat with friends or webcam.
Skype cannot be controlled by DMs.
WIll people use it? possibly, i know i dont.
DMs need to use their best judgement while watching a situation, see how things play out, what happens, what the individuals in the situation do, how it results the server, and then deal out judgement.
This topic is waaaaaaay too heated, think it might be going on too long.

(rambling again)

[Mithreas]

Just what constitutes as evidence here beyond mere suspicion? Enlighten us to the process.

It's very simple.

DMs use their best judgment to tackle issues which they perceive as detrimental to the server.

If players feel they have been wronged, they appeal to me.

Simple.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I apologize. I never meant for my concerns to blow the thread up to this level of tension. As I pointed out, if I'm doing it wrong, I'll gladly stop. I had no idea this was such a huge thing- but all my closest friends and I joke that I live under a rock, so.

Somewhere on these forums if I go looking, I can find a quote that says something to the effect of "Arelith is not a single-player game."

To me, Skype is a tool to emphasize that aspect, and for the most part the negative connotations involved go right over my head. When I'm not so fortunate, the internet is a vast place, there are a lot of players on this server, and I don't have to talk to everyone all the time- but I like to talk to various people at various times.

I seem to view Skype vastly differently from the majority of the server.

I would be lying if I said there had never been a player I spoke with on Skype that I didn't interact with well- i.e., not everyone gets along with everyone, and some people will not be friends.

That is as simple as unfriending them, and needs not bring any unnecessary drama to the game.

'We are human' is not a sound and logical argument against this. I am human, and there are people I don't want to be friends with, but I am genuinely grateful for all the IC interactions I have on Arelith. I view them as a separate entity from everything else, solely from the viewpoint of my character- limited as I am by my own ability to perceive and understand the motivations of the character I have created and am writing for.

To be completely honest, in the 10+ years I've been playing NWN, some of the best IC interactions I've had are with people I can't agree with about anything out of character.

But overall, I genuinely enjoy the opportunity a medium like skype presents to enjoy the game with other people- to exchange ideas and thoughts with other players. In my mindset, if I'm going hunting with three people, and we just happen to have skype, the experience is more enjoyable with skype running. I can see the dilemmas this presents, but under my rock those problems didn't really exist.

Thanks for ruining my rock, guys.

"Look out, I'm gonna throw a fireball", would be faster to send in a tell.

Not to a group.


Put it another way.

Party chat is disabled on Arelith.

So why do you think we'd be happy with a system that basically replicates party chat in a third party client?

Also, on a more serious note, I have nothing with which to refute this logic. My bad.

Edit: But voice to text would still be amazing...

[Mithreas]

That quote was mine... I fully believe you can play Arelith as a multi player game without Skype!

Skype is fine for socialising, and it's totally OK to socialise with other members of Arelith. It's when Skype gets co-opted as part of the game that I start having problems with it. I hope that distinction makes sense.

[Lorkas]

Supported by the server, yes, but clunky, and requires logging in to the game to see any of the messages, which amounts to effectively phone-tag. Every bit as bad as the system of using a messageboard IC, except the only difference is you don't have to walk, and you don't need paper, oh yea, and its impossible to have parallel threads going. Everything stacks into a jumbled mess.

The other two differences are that 1) using -factions can't exclude anyone, because every single person who is possibly running Arelith can access it, and 2) it is explicitly for OOC talk. It's also just as possible to have multiple threads in -factions as it is in message boards. There is no threading in message boards apart from having separate message boards, but it is completely free to start multiple factions for OOC chat on different topics. Clunky yes, but supported by the server, unlike Skype.

Skype might be convenient for you and your buddies, but maybe it isn't so convenient for someone else since they don't have a Skype account or even the program. You are basically saying to that player that they have to choose between getting left out of lots of stuff that effects the game, or else download a third-party program and log into it on a regular basis to see what you guys are up to. That isn't at all as convenient for me as hitting -factions when I log on.

The problem I'm raising (in addition to the meta problem focused on by Mith) is that it's exclusionary to require someone to have a third-party program in order to access your faction's OOC discussions and plans. I don't think that people using Skype are twisting their mustaches while planning to exclude outsiders, but the simple fact is when you have a method of communication that you and all of your buddies use, and someone else comes along to join the faction who doesn't use that program, it is all-too-easy to exclude them, even unintentionally, from the information you're sharing. I have been on the receiving end of that treatment (or rather, the not-receiving end) and it's absolutely not in the spirit of the server in my opinion.

Obviously there's no problem with socializing outside of the game, but any stuff that affects in-game things should be done in a way that doesn't exclude anyone who might join the faction.

[rat0a]

That quote was mine... I fully believe you can play Arelith as a multi player game without Skype!

Fully Agree,

been here close to five years and never ever I had used skype to do my thing here

I had won, I had loose, ect without the use of an external program

I do my thing "IG"

[JediMindTrix]

Party chat is disabled on Arelith.

So why do you think we'd be happy with a system that basically replicates party chat in a third party client?

I was under the impression, until now, that party chat was disabled because it spammed the DM channel, so I can understand why this wouldn't directly enter someone's mind until reading this.

Somewhere on these forums if I go looking, I can find a quote that says something to the effect of "Arelith is not a single-player game."

It's in someone's signature. I feel like the original source is on the old forums.

That's not a reason to avoid cracking down on a means and a medium that allows them to do it easier.

I just don't see any way to reliably do this that doesn't also risk falsely accusing someone, short of installing spyware, or people constantly pointing fingers at each other "She's a witch!".

It was that realisation that spurred me to develop -notells, simply to give people the choice to have that experience.

Best function ever, seriously, use it all the time and it does make a difference.

*edited for clarity

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

... I hope that distinction makes sense.

It does now.

My poor rock.

[UUD-40]

That's not a reason to avoid cracking down on a means and a medium that allows them to do it easier.

I just don't see any way to reliably do this that doesn't also risk falsely accusing someone, short of installing spyware, or people constantly pointing fingers at each other "She's a witch!".

I'm going to go ahead and say that we, as a community, already do plenty of this finger pointing. And uh. Well, I suspect a lot of it happens in Skype.

[Ebonstar]

I see that with the Dms having to deal with things such as this, they cannot spend their time doing what DMs are supposed to be doing, namely Dming.

I miss the sudden stranger appearing with a problem and needing help or a merchant paying for something that noone else will buy.

Have we all become so needy on tech that we have to have it policed and ruin the game for others?
If you want to skype then skype, but if you want to play on Arelith come to play the game. It just cant be said any simpler then that. Dms have so much more they can do other then being rule enforcement. We have common sense, well 99 percent of us do, come on guys and girls use it.

Dms are people too and im sure the last thing they want is to log in a have to wonder if someone is using skype or whatever. Let them have some fun too.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

I suspect that the benefit of doubt will be given to cases that aren't clearly really weird and suspicious.

Just like most cases of things.

Even if this policy is never Directly enforced (perhaps from lack of clear opportunity), it still makes it clear where things stand. And therefore, people will more accurately police their Own behavior even if they continue to use skype and hide it. I still say that's a positive improvement.

[Mithreas]

Even if this policy is never Directly enforced (perhaps from lack of clear opportunity), it still makes it clear where things stand. And therefore, people will more accurately police their Own behavior even if they continue to use skype and hide it. I still say that's a positive improvement.

Oh, it's been enforced a few times recently (some before and some after my announcement). As commented above, there's nothing new about the policy! I made the post mainly because I want there to be zero doubt in anyone's mind about whether it's OK or not.

[Swirling Stars]

You can skype on your phone. No PC required, you can do it on the bus, you can do it in class(if the wifi is good), you can do it anywhere. If you are using -faction for OOC chatter and planning, how is that any different than using skype(beyond skype being a million times more efficient and convenient)? How is that any different than using the forums and just mailing multiple people at once?

You can also use the forum on a cell phone, on a bus, on a plane on a train, here or there or anywhere. How is Skype different? Because if you confine yourself to server-sanctioned communication (forum) you have to rely on people being logged into the forum, hitting refresh at the right time, and seeing your missive for immediate response.

In other words, forum messaging prevents unfair advantages like "Look out, I'm gonna throw a fireball." or, "Dude, just got kicked out of Cordor, I need people for a counterstrike, quick!"

This happens anyway, whether there be skype (Or some other form of ooc communication) or no skype. People flock to such things because it's interesting conflict rp and they want a taste of it.

Personally, I see both the flaws and uses of using ooc means of communication like skype. It can be good for brainstorming new rp plot ideas or perhaps speaking personal opinions about current situations on many different topics. However, I have seen that it has it's negative connotations including the formation of cliques, ooc/harmful gossip about other players, and metagaming via such gossip. Once you know something, it is hard to resist using it. That's a fact. However, I feel as if this is always going to be a problem as we can not control what players do outside of the server because well... freewill.
Therefore, I think it's a good idea to just try our best to ignore possible metagaming situations and keep the harmful/ooc gossip to a minimum whilst discussing things on skype with our buddies.

[Xarge VI]

I think people miss some great rp in a faction if they plan through OOC channels. OOC should be used for dates and times to coordinate people online at the same time. Imo.

I've had great fun when a group of evil characters pull out a chalk board and starts brainstorming dastardly plans IC.

[Sazu]

The simplest response I am guessing is this what the DM/Dev team wants.

Either play by the rules or take the risk of being punished.