RE: Statement of Intent Discussion

[JediMindTrix]

This is in regards to this announcement. Specifically this line:

But I am very keen to reduce the amount of OOC collusion going on - either by having the team be more aggressive with RPR drops where people are playing avatars rather than characters, or through XP penalties for people involved in this sort of metagaming (or a mix of the two).

Frankly I find the highlighted line worrying. The staff have expressly stated before several times, probably more, that they do not wish to be the RP Police. Giving DM powers to drop RPRs if they feel that a player is avatar-playing sounds much more like a dangerous can of worms then the good idea it might sound like now. It sounds to me to be dangerously vague. What exactly constitutes one and the other? Where is the line drawn with this?

I find it hard to subscribe to the idea that it is/will be very easy to tell the difference between someone who is just 'playing a character' and someone who has invested themselves into a character. It's very hard to tell in practice, especially just by casual observation alone.

[CragOneEye]

This is in regards to this announcement. Specifically this line:

But I am very keen to reduce the amount of OOC collusion going on - either by having the team be more aggressive with RPR drops where people are playing avatars rather than characters, or through XP penalties for people involved in this sort of metagaming (or a mix of the two).

Frankly I find the highlighted line worrying. The staff have expressly stated before several times, probably more, that they do not wish to be the RP Police. Giving DM powers to drop RPRs if they feel that a player is avatar-playing sounds much more like a dangerous can of worms then the good idea it might sound like now. It sounds to me to be dangerously vague. What exactly constitutes one and the other? Where is the line drawn with this?

I find it hard to subscribe to the idea that it is/will be very easy to tell the difference between someone who is just 'playing a character' and someone who has invested themselves into a character. It's very hard to tell in practice, especially just by casual observation alone.

I'm frankly not as worried in this regard given most classes and races are no longer effected by the RPR system, as such I would like to see more DM involvement with the RPR system. As it would give the RPR system more meaning, it also would make it more rewarding.

In other words I want to see RPR used how it was originally meant to be used when it was first created. (Fact they removed as requirement for classes and races helps with this.) But rather than as a way to "police" roleplay, it be used in a way to encourage -more- roleplay. Giving players whom don't want to grind endlessly an extra edge over those whom do.

[Arther Goodmane]

I agree with CragOneEye, but I am a bit confused. What exactly is Avatar playing? Why is it a bad thing?

I do agree though, that DMs should have the ability to effect people's role play bonus and that the RPB should have meaning (to encourage more RP, as stated above). I myself come from a time where Role play bonus was used as a prerequisite for certain characters (plane touched mostly). Heck, I joined BEFORE there was a role play bonus...I had to delete my Aasimar Samurai Paladin

I suppose each DM should use their discretion when judging player's involvement in the server. I suppose the question(s) that should be asked is: Is this player a boon or bane to the server and are they keeping to the spirit (not letter) of the rules.

[Mithreas]

Frankly I find the highlighted line worrying. The staff have expressly stated before several times, probably more, that they do not wish to be the RP Police.

Uh, what, that's a primary function of the DM team. Monitoring RPRs?

Giving DM powers to drop RPRs if they feel that a player is avatar-playing sounds much more like a dangerous can of worms then the good idea it might sound like now. It sounds to me to be dangerously vague. What exactly constitutes one and the other? Where is the line drawn with this?

Good RP is the line. And it's not a line, it's a continuum.

Really, this isn't anything new. DMs monitor RP quality and award RPRs accordingly. However, we're going to be looking out more carefully for 'avataring' and the post is really to make sure that everyone knows it's Not OK.

I find it hard to subscribe to the idea that it is/will be very easy to tell the difference between someone who is just 'playing a character' and someone who has invested themselves into a character. It's very hard to tell in practice, especially just by casual observation alone.

Actually, it's often pretty easy to tell, especially when a character loses PvP or something. You'd probably be surprised at the number of issues that the DM team handle where the root cause is people being too invested in their avatar.

[furryn]

Or when two characters just seem to be able to read each others thoughts, even when they are by no means close enough to whisper.

I honestly do not find this worrying at all, and I have suspected people talking on skype (or other VOIP) to be the cause of pain for me in the past, due to the way the characters acted (seriously, it's often kind of obvious). And i can say from my own experience, that often, while skyping, you'll not notice that you aren't RPing half as well as you normally do. Which is the primary reason i only do it rarely these days.

[Scurvy Cur]

@JMT:

I don't find it worrying at all. There are two cases in which a DM is likely to get involved over Skype use:

1) The character is mindlessly cruising from one task to another, aimlessly not RPing much at all, or farming with a large group in complete in game silence. Any sort of heavy communication outside the game often runs the risk of causing this behavior, and any time you get people not RPing for extended stretches of time, or considering XP grinding to be a thing which is done with friends over Skype while you "take a break from RPing", it's worth nudging their rating down to whichever one is consistent with "is sometimes in character, but not always". Even otherwise-good RPers can fall into this trap, particularly when out doing PvE stuff with the friends they are on Skype with, or trying to Skype and RP at the same time.

2) Cases where Skype or some other OOC communication platform is being used to arrange and plan things that are going to happen IC, to facilitate collusion, etc. In this case, where it is suspected, it should be investigated. Where it can be proven, DM action is entirely merited, with a response appropriate to the severity of the breach in good conduct.

@ Arther:

Avatar playing, at least as I think Mithreas is using it in his advisory notice, is what happens when the line between a player and a character becomes sufficiently blurred that there is occasional trouble differentiating between the two. This is the common mode of operation in MMOs, where you aren't concerned with determining how a character would behave, and instead spend all your time pursuing entirely player-based goals in the game world: hitting max level, getting gear capped, goofing off with your guildmates, etc.

On Arelith avatar play is most commonly seen when players play essentially multiple copies of the exact same non-character, who is basically a self-insert into a fantasy world: them, only with epic spells or dragon-slaying, artifact farming +5 swords of awesome. Skype groups encourage this because they allow a character to achieve in game objectives with little need to actually engage with the game world as a character rather than as a player while simultaneously providing a distraction from RPing their character. The result is that the strength and quality of the character suffers, and the void is often filled by self-insert personality.

[JediMindTrix]

@JMT:

I don't find it worrying at all. There are two cases in which a DM is likely to get involved over Skype use:

I see reigning skype use in as only being a positive thing.

[Sazu]

Honestly, I don't feel very watched by DMs except always in a negative light.

Also is being invested in your avatar the same as being invested in your character? I am highly invested in my character(I only make one at a time, so I can focus on that character and not be distracted).

Should I take a guess that the type of dialogue and/or emotes displayed(or lack thereof) is a trait of these avatar players?

[grip]

(or lack thereof)

I am not DM_grip, just PC_grip, but this is a big indicator that someone I am playing with is in chat or something of the like. It is annoying and makes me not want to play with those folks.

[Scurvy Cur]

Lack of responsiveness is one indicator. So is a tendency to take character setbacks and make personal grievances out of them.

One final note on group OOC chat and one of the biggest issues I've seen from it with respect from Arelith's standpoint: too often, these groups become an echo chamber where opinions of other players or groups thereof are concerned, particularly if that group or player happens to be playing an IC adversary at the time. This can lead to unchallenged exaggeration of OOC reports of IC behavior with unpleasant consequences. For example:

Player A has a character that fights player B's character for thoroughly understandable reasons and wins. Player B vents about it in Skype chat with his friends, then logs off. Player B's friends get to talking about it, and have soon convinced themselves that player A is a PvP hound who probably kill-bashes lowbies for sport and trades their skulls to a shameless artifact farmer for gear to PvP even more with. It doesn't take long for the group to decide that Player A is irredeemable scum, and deserves a Kill-bash of Justice to show him for being such a cancer on the server. It's not such a large step from there to agree that the good old Posse of Righteousness needs to be formed to teach Player A a lesson (and bash him, naturally). IC excuses are found to make this happen, Player A's character is confronted, killed, and bashed, and there is much Skype group rejoicing. The worst part is, the Posse of Righteousness almost never sees themselves as doing anything worse than giving a terrible player a taste of what he deserves.

[Marsi]

I'm glad this is the official stance, and that I'm not the only one with these frustrations.

[Cortex]

To be fair, I thought this all was already a given and included in "pridegaming".

[Sazu]

I hate to say this but might as well:

How exactly would you crackdown on this behavior? Truth is most of those same gamers who go on skype form decent sized groups, and it's those groups who get the most DM attention. DMs rarely if ever give any attention to single players. I am willing to bet it's usually the same groups of players that get the most attention, and then to better collaborate with each other to actually make things happen, go on Skype(or some other program).

Also note that this policing tactic may only serve for those groups to hide the fact all the more. To OOC segregate themselves from other players they might otherwise become friends with. It would actually cause them to tighten their cliques, and close them off to other players, many of them new.

Then we look at those players who Alt/Tab to jump on the forums(like myself). When my character is at home and I have finished a round of grinding, I sometimes jump on the forums while the game is still going on cause I read a couple posts then alt tab right back to game and continue what I was doing.

Also, OOC friendship or not seems to matter consistently in this game. If OOC the dev/dms don't like a person, it shows in-game, regardless of how well a player does in-game or how well they RP. So why hound people for something the highest members of the game perpetuate themselves? Hell I wouldn't be surprised if just cause of this post I wouldn't be somehow blackballed by the DMs.

The same OOC stuff that Scurvy Cur mentioned happens with players, DMs, and Devs alike. You guys have a list of players you pretty much choose to ignore, but if other groups of players do it, it's wrong?

Now, I myself do not use SKype, cause it breaks immersion for me personally. If I wanted less immersion I'd play an MMO(as I stated before). But it doesn't stop me from believing this sort of stuff goes on throughout the server, from all angles.

How do you think other players feel when they are ignored by the DMs/Devs? Or witnessing the same group of players get the same vast amounts of attention over and over again? I may not be the best human being OOC, but I know I do RP, and I know I ain't that bad either.

It seems like everybody now has more communication behind the curtains rather than lift the veil and open up actual dialogue like mature folks.

Sorry about the rant, it's just things I heard about players, DMs, Devs, and all the rest leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

All I can say is-

About lovely time.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

I didn't even know skyping during Arelith was a Thing to this extent until this year. When I learned I was rather confounded. I can barely multitask tells IG and emotes! I can't read and listen at the same time to the extent I feel I am concentrating appropriately.

Maybe some people have mystical multitasking powers, but that is beyond me. OOC talk happens regardless but I have never seen vocal OOC communications over a text based medium ever end well.

Using it to foster said 'echo chambers' as Scurvy put it and to call together IC posses on things honestly fills me with distaste for the people involved.

I have come to avoid people I know to be skyping IG because I feel that not only do they not offer decent RP, I feel they are actively metagaming for it. Maybe this is unfair of me. But I have seen enough to this point from such players to have more than suspicions on the metagaming parts.

I am glad steps are finally being taken to attempt to discourage this sort of behavior.

[Arther Goodmane]

DMs are people, but I don't think they allow their personal feelings to dictate how they treat players (at least those who do, don't stay on as DMs for very long). Good roleplay is rewarded, bad roleplay is either ignored or punished.

Even before Skype, OOC collusion was a thing. It's like the wind though, you can only observe it's effect. I am sure the DMs will observe and act appropriately, if they see such going on. To people who do it though, please don't. Metagaming spoils the fun (with a few exceptions).

In game stuff has to stay In game and Out of game stuff should stay out of game. I mean sure, you can share your opinion about something OOC, but you should not let that influence your IC actions. And if you think there is a legitimate problem from one of the players...Report the D**n thing! Why u pple no repurt to DM! (just kidding)

Ultimately, this is just a game and we all wanna play it and have fun, because the real world doesn't have respawns, or XP or ludicrous amounts of gold. We wanna preserve that and people who get angsty OOC about things going on IC, does not help that.

Anyway, I think you guys already know all this. The OP was about trying to understand what the statement's intent was and I think it's simply to warn people not to meta game or break the "be nice" rule...which is something we pretty much knew for...well, forever.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

I think as long as DMs don't bother people who are just afking a lot (Like I am guilty of) or minimizing to multitask things (Like I also do a lot, got to get my orders into webDiplomacy!) then a lot of the other stuff is more obvious.

But it's true, some of this has issues with enforcement. We'll just have to see what track people take and hope its reasonable! I think the fact its being pointed out as something less than acceptable though is a good positive step. The official word helps a lot with people who were on the fence about it but were talked into it by others.

Don't really have excuses now!

[Jagel]

As with all DM-policing it's a case by case. I'm sure players will get the benefit of doubt where such is warranted. And as always one can take up unjust verdicts with the DEVs. If there is a concern the easy fix is to communicate only via IC interactions and tells.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I have only one objection to this Statement of Intent, and it is the same issue I have anytime Skype gets brought up on any NWN RP server. It boils down to something like this.

"Communicating on Skype is an OOC method of communication and your character should not benefit from it."

The problem I have with this mental theory comes when it is juxtaposed with the following sentiment.

"My typing speed is an OOC factor, and the abhorrent speed with which I type should NOT be responsible for my character's death or the death of his traveling companions."

If you examine these two sentiments, you can see where the conflict of interest arises. However, personally, if I skype while I'm out hunting, I will communicate DURING the PvE spawn groups through skype (because I do not believe my character should stop all actions and movement, go flat-footed, and lose 3/4th's of his health while I type out a short emote about what he's doing and then say three words out loud).

After the spawn group is cleared, I will, with relative frequency, take the time to put together an IC post or two about the fight- maneuvers, resolution, injuries, etc. I won't always do it with every spawn group, but it happens...however, the first time I stop to type during an encounter and someone drops, I guarantee you I am not typing anything for the rest of the trip until safety is reached.

My concern is this:

Policing RPR to account for people who use Skype to engineer metagaming is understandable, but how does this interact with players whom (in my opinion, legitimately) do not want themselves or their party to die while their character spends 15 seconds standing doing nothing to do something that IC should take a fraction of a second? Will the latter player be punished along with the former, and how will you tell the difference?

Furthermore, I sometimes play on the server with my roommate. If we sit next to each other and talk out loud, are we violating the game's rules because we happen to live together? What about couples who want to play with each other?

[mf_hansen]

A tricky dilemma
I suppose it depends on how prevalent this OOC telepathy is to outside observers. If there's a lot of OOC communication (via tell or skype) going on the observing character would logically start questioning them IC how they always know each other's thoughts. If it only happens rarely the characters can probably explain it by them knowing each other quite well (if they DO know each other well IC). If not and the characters have no good IC explanation, in this case it would be "bad roleplay".

Some players are faster than others at typing IC chatter, even when their character would be VERY eloquent and fast talkers IC, meaning they get an OOC handicap some might also see as "bad roleplay" or not playing your character sheet. One almost wishes we had a third-party tool that could understand Skype voices, convert into text, paste into NWN chat window and send it...
In 2020 perhaps

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

... One almost wishes we had a third-party tool that could understand Skype voices, convert into text, paste into NWN chat window and send it...
In 2020 perhaps

A voice-to-text function for NWN would be phenomenal. I know there are already external programs that can run in the background to change how your mouse clicks interact with the GUI- I wonder if anyone out there has the time and know-how to hook VtT software into something similar?

This sort of feature would at least resolve my personal concerns revolving around hunting groups, although most VtT software is a bit lacking or overtly manual where punctuation is concerned.

[Tashalar]

... One almost wishes we had a third-party tool that could understand Skype voices, convert into text, paste into NWN chat window and send it...
In 2020 perhaps

A voice-to-text function for NWN would be phenomenal. I know there are already external programs that can run in the background to change how your mouse clicks interact with the GUI- I wonder if anyone out there has the time and know-how to hook VtT software into something similar?

This sort of feature would at least resolve my personal concerns revolving around hunting groups, although most VtT software is a bit lacking or overtly manual where punctuation is concerned.

I think I'd end up in trouble for swearing a lot when Near Death on adventures (In panic, I might add, I am naturally quite jittery)

[Mithreas]

I have only one objection to this Statement of Intent, and it is the same issue I have anytime Skype gets brought up on any NWN RP server. It boils down to something like this.

"Communicating on Skype is an OOC method of communication and your character should not benefit from it."

The problem I have with this mental theory comes when it is juxtaposed with the following sentiment.

"My typing speed is an OOC factor, and the abhorrent speed with which I type should NOT be responsible for my character's death or the death of his traveling companions."

If you examine these two sentiments, you can see where the conflict of interest arises. However, personally, if I skype while I'm out hunting, I will communicate DURING the PvE spawn groups through skype (because I do not believe my character should stop all actions and movement, go flat-footed, and lose 3/4th's of his health while I type out a short emote about what he's doing and then say three words out loud).

After the spawn group is cleared, I will, with relative frequency, take the time to put together an IC post or two about the fight- maneuvers, resolution, injuries, etc. I won't always do it with every spawn group, but it happens...however, the first time I stop to type during an encounter and someone drops, I guarantee you I am not typing anything for the rest of the trip until safety is reached.

My concern is this:

Policing RPR to account for people who use Skype to engineer metagaming is understandable, but how does this interact with players whom (in my opinion, legitimately) do not want themselves or their party to die while their character spends 15 seconds standing doing nothing to do something that IC should take a fraction of a second? Will the latter player be punished along with the former, and how will you tell the difference?

Furthermore, I sometimes play on the server with my roommate. If we sit next to each other and talk out loud, are we violating the game's rules because we happen to live together? What about couples who want to play with each other?

You should not use Skype for RP. It is absolutely not encouraged or supported by Arelith.

The main reasons are:
- Requires being in a skype group to adventure together
- Approach massively encourages the creation of cliques rather than having people mix freely
- Takes RP out of the game, where other players (and DMs) can't see it.

Practically:
- If all your RP is over Skype (or in the real world), your RPR will likely suffer because DMs can't see it.
- Your typing speed will improve with practice. I can't be the only person who got a lot faster at typing after starting online RP.

-Mith

[Black Wendigo]

Skyping isn't the only problem here. It's the whole idea of colluding with a clique and exchanging metagamed information. This is not unique to Skype. FOr instance we don't have party channel for the same reason. If the devs are making a statement of intent it's to warn people that they are going to treat skyping as metagaming or whatever else they have stated.

So now we know. And if one is innocent, I am sure that they won't get banned for being so. The DM's I've interacted with have tried very hard to be sure of what they accuse someone of is true or close to being true. I am certain anyone innocent will be given thier chance to explain.

PS I disagree that your typing speed will improve with practice. Mine hasn't in eight years and I don't think it ever will .

[Sazu]

We all know Skype is less about emoting while in PvE and more about metagaming knowledge. No one who uses Skype during NWN uses it for emoting fight scenes.