Warlocks

[Realoms]

Having played both a fair bit now, since the update when it came in, I'm going to suggest that the fey and fiend's enchantment and conjuration spells are kept in place. (Along with ethereal and ice storm, at the current levels.)

However, I suggest buffs- stats, haste or mass haste, and either imp invis, or displacement, are available to be taken by both.
I understand trying to keep the planar summoner and trickster fighter types going and thematic and it's an idea I really like. However, in my experience so far, and in theory, fiends are even less attractive than they were given their inability to use any of the really useful buffs (and ones that are most often used on summons) and a lack of defense (Belagarn's helps a bit, but darkness is super buggy).
Combined with a fey pacts ability to buff themselves silly, and then spam 2x status affects (holds, slows, confusions (very potent for offense) and a dominated humanoid (which can be as good or better than a summon))- fey pacts seem to have an extreme upper hand again.

So if we free up some of the buffs like invisibility, and haste, and stats, UV, see invis... we can allow a bit more choice, keep a theme (enchantments and beguiling themed spells vs. conjurings), keep the capstone and allow both types of pacts a chance to have defense and access to buffs.

[yellowcateyes]

Warlocks, with this latest update, are already quite viable and very competitive. Adding more spells to their list could very well push them into 'broken' territory.

Gaps in their spell list are easily rectified with a bard class skill - UMD. In addition, many of the 'essential' spells, such as ultravision, see invisibility, improved invisibility, etc., can be used in scroll form even without UMD. Those are bard spells, after all. The warlock has access to all the buffs he needs with a modest expenditure of resources and time. Adding them to the warlock's spell list just allows him to treat the spells as infinitely-spammable luxuries.

Further, the summons can be re-conjured an infinite amount of times. The value of this cannot be overstated. It doesn't matter if your succubus gets heavily injured in an encounter. Next round, you can re-summon it and it will be fresh and new. Also, the upgraded summons are really, really strong for their level. I don't think the improved Balor Lord needs to be hasted 24/7.

[Mdiddy]

I don't think the improved Balor Lord needs to be hasted 24/7.

+1

[Preacher]

To answer a previous question... they will have all the spells on the left and center OR the right and center. As they level they need to select these spells as no others will actually function (I believe that is accurate if someone fey can test selecting a abyssal spell on lvl up and see if it takes?)

[yellowcateyes]

You don't need to worry about your spell selection. It can be anything.

Your spell list just gets reset to that detailed in the first post, regardless.

[Preacher]

Having played both a fair bit now, since the update when it came in, I'm going to suggest that the fey and fiend's enchantment and conjuration spells are kept in place. (Along with ethereal and ice storm, at the current levels.)

However, I suggest buffs- stats, haste or mass haste, and either imp invis, or displacement, are available to be taken by both.
I understand trying to keep the planar summoner and trickster fighter types going and thematic and it's an idea I really like. However, in my experience so far, and in theory, fiends are even less attractive than they were given their inability to use any of the really useful buffs (and ones that are most often used on summons) and a lack of defense (Belagarn's helps a bit, but darkness is super buggy).
Combined with a fey pacts ability to buff themselves silly, and then spam 2x status affects (holds, slows, confusions (very potent for offense) and a dominated humanoid (which can be as good or better than a summon))- fey pacts seem to have an extreme upper hand again.

So if we free up some of the buffs like invisibility, and haste, and stats, UV, see invis... we can allow a bit more choice, keep a theme (enchantments and beguiling themed spells vs. conjurings), keep the capstone and allow both types of pacts a chance to have defense and access to buffs.

I agree with this, the style of fey vs abyssal/demonic seems to cover the dominate, confusion, etc on the fey side and the summons on the abyssal/demonic side, but the buffs able to be used should be shared as the warlock's usefulness has been limited without the other general bard spell.

Warlocks used to be able to pass off as a caster with some buff spells and utility spells, sadly not any more. Buff wise, Abyssals are limited to Str, dex, cha stat buffs, ultravision, see invis and prot from alignment and energy buffer. However fey are limited to expidition retreat, mage armor, displacement, etherial visage, improved invisibility, cha stat, mass haste and energy buffer.

Saying oh they can get wands of X to replace is bringing oranges up in an apple conversation. Both sides can use UMD and wands to supplement most of the spells nether has access to however there are a few spells that will not be able to be replaced. Legend lore for example. That always had 2 slots on my spell list to help me understand languages. No longer

I won't list out the things I can't do due to changes because my warlock is an older one so it has a number of feats/skills that are no longer useful and honestly I've accepted that as the changes mean the server is still evolving and getting even better despite my warlock being slightly left behind it was built for mechanics that don't exist anymore. But I do think that letting buffs cross both lines of the types of warlocks should help the balance and leave the offensive spells to dictate the style of the different types nicely creates the play styles and proper balance for the class.

[Preacher]

You don't need to worry about your spell selection. It can be anything.

Your spell list just gets reset to that detailed in the first post, regardless.

I didn't have see invisibility as a abyssal/demonic until I actually selected it on my spell list when i lvl'ed up

[yellowcateyes]

I didn't have see invisibility as a abyssal/demonic until I actually selected it on my spell list when i lvl'ed up

Grandfathered warlocks retained their old spell list. They only got their new ones upon first level up after the update.

[Preacher]

I had already leveled under the new system. I didn't have it. I did end up dieing and made sure I selected it on leveling up the second time.

[God In Action]

I bet you only have four 2nd level spells right? It seems that you can only hold the normal number of any spells per spell level as the base bard, and any extra are lost. So for now, select the first four spells you desperately want, e.g. Strength, Charisma, Darkness and Ultravision, and do without See Invisibility, Summon Creature 2 and Cat's Grace until a solution is found.

[yellowcateyes]

I agree with this, the style of fey vs abyssal/demonic seems to cover the dominate, confusion, etc on the fey side and the summons on the abyssal/demonic side, but the buffs able to be used should be shared as the warlock's usefulness has been limited without the other general bard spell.

Warlocks used to be able to pass off as a caster with some buff spells and utility spells, sadly not any more. Buff wise, Abyssals are limited to Str, dex, cha stat buffs, ultravision, see invis and prot from alignment and energy buffer. However fey are limited to expidition retreat, mage armor, displacement, etherial visage, improved invisibility, cha stat, mass haste and energy buffer.

Saying oh they can get wands of X to replace is bringing oranges up in an apple conversation. Both sides can use UMD and wands to supplement most of the spells nether has access to however there are a few spells that will not be able to be replaced. Legend lore for example. That always had 2 slots on my spell list to help me understand languages. No longer

I won't list out the things I can't do due to changes because my warlock is an older one so it has a number of feats/skills that are no longer useful and honestly I've accepted that as the changes mean the server is still evolving and getting even better despite my warlock being slightly left behind it was built for mechanics that don't exist anymore. But I do think that letting buffs cross both lines of the types of warlocks should help the balance and leave the offensive spells to dictate the style of the different types nicely creates the play styles and proper balance for the class.

You cannot define a warlock's usefulness through having as varied assortment of tools as a normal caster. This is because warlocks are distinct from most other casters in one important regard - infinite castings. For sorcerers to do this, they have to sacrifice every spell school outside of evocation. For weavemasters to do this, they must suffer a major cooldown when using higher-level spells.

Warlocks also get infinite castings of spells. Their sacrifice is having a limited and clearly defined spell list. They shouldn't have the versatility of a bard's full spell list. And, when it comes down to it, missing essentials can be plugged in with UMD. UMD is even optional because bard spell list scrolls can be used freely.

The current update has warlocks in a very good place. Giving them more spells is not needed.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

... YellowCatEyes makes a return?

At this rate, we'll soon be seeing Coffinpus.

[Ecstatic]

It is also worth considering that many fiendish warlocks from the old path may feel underwhelming compared to their fey counterparts due to the great degree to which the optimal fiendish warlock setup has changed, in contrast to the feylock.

The old Feylock still wanted things like spell penetration, greater enchantment focus, extend spell, and a heavy investment in charisma. The new feylock uses a lot of the same feats, without much need to recalibrate setup, so a feylock that was viable at 30 in the old system will be viable at 30 in the new system.

The new fiendlock, however, really wants a set of feats you would never take on a warlock in the old system. Greater conjuration focus, and then either abjuration with a dex/con focus or necromancy with a charisma focus seem to be pretty good choices for a fiendlock as currently implemented, but these are choices that an old warlock would pretty much never take, so it is likely that someone messing around with their old fiendlock ported to the new system is dealing with a mess of a character sheet that is chock full of feats that really don't apply to them.

Properly focused, the fiendlock should have a succubus by level 8 (long before anything in the module has a prayer of doing damage to it), and a vrock by level 12 (ditto). Haste on top of this feels like it would be a little much, and you do have wands/potions/scrolls when you really need to double spam that ice storm.

[Hamatreya]

I'm horrible with building this new class. If someone wants to shoot me a good fiendlock concept in a PM I'd be ever so grateful.

[Preacher]

Yellow, What you aren't realizing is that no one is asking for the full bard list. You keep trying to convince us that oranges are the best when we are still talking about only apples. Feylocks have these spells already. the suggestion/ opinion is that demolocks and abysslocks should have these buff's as well.

The bard spell list was always limited comparatively and now that is even more so but, but that is the orange in the room. The apple is the number of available spells to the current warlock. Sorcerers have more selection, weave masters have unlimited but have timers. True flames are similar in that they are unlimited in numbers like the warlock but are balanced in that they must stick with evocation.

In the end its up to Mith and my guess is he probably will watch for a bit to see how the current inclination works out before changing but all thoughts and opinions are simply suggestions.

[Preacher]

I'm horrible with building this new class. If someone wants to shoot me a good fiendlock concept in a PM I'd be ever so grateful.

add me to that, I love to talk shop so to speak.

[Mithreas]

Yellow, What you aren't realizing is that no one is asking for the full bard list. You keep trying to convince us that oranges are the best when we are still talking about only apples. Feylocks have these spells already. the suggestion/ opinion is that demolocks and abysslocks should have these buff's as well.

The bard spell list was always limited comparatively and now that is even more so but, but that is the orange in the room. The apple is the number of available spells to the current warlock. Sorcerers have more selection, weave masters have unlimited but have timers. True flames are similar in that they are unlimited in numbers like the warlock but are balanced in that they must stick with evocation.

I disagree with all this. Feylocks and Fiendlocks may as well be different classes the way they are built - they have one core trick in common but their different spell (invocation) sets mean they play differently. Your suggestion reads as basically making them the same and giving them access to the best of both worlds. That's not going to happen.

In the end its up to Mith and my guess is he probably will watch for a bit to see how the current inclination works out before changing but all thoughts and opinions are simply suggestions.

This is spot on though. All the posts about warlock balance and suggestions etc are being filed in my ignore bin at this point. I'm not even considering making further changes (beside fixing bugs) right now.

[Realoms]

Will icestorm kill a fiend pact's summons and the warlock, or only enemies (/party members)?

[Hamatreya]

Icestorm targets all creatures in the AoE, friend or foe.
Mechanical question: should I take Blind Fight as a warlock? Should my spell fail due to concealment, will nothing happen? Thanks.

[Realoms]

A fiend pact can kill themselves quite fast simply through icestorm's AoE damage then.

Blind fight helps on ranged touch attacks, so yes it's good to take.


What happens to warlocks who were level 30? Do they just get to keep their old spell lists or will they be made to have their spells fixed?

[The Rambling Midget]

Mechanical question: should I take Blind Fight as a warlock? Should my spell fail due to concealment, will nothing happen? Thanks.

Touch Attacks can fail due to Concealment, so Blind Fight is good to have. Per Mith's documentation, if the Touch Attack misses, nothing happens. However, if you have a particularly slippery opponent, you can target AoEs at the ground to negate any chance of failure.

[Realoms]

I know the balance and suggestions are filed in this ignore bin...but in light of the above regarding icestorm, I'm not sure if that was intended (but it didn't seem to be given the discussion)

Could epic level fiend pacts + their summons be given immunity to ice storm? Just to remove the killing of oneself and summons exceedingly fast? It seems counterproductive to give them a very strong damage spell but then have it kill them as well.
Don't think this is too much of an adjustment but it would be nice since it seems it was meant to be their capstone and not kill them too.

[The Rambling Midget]

Casting Ice Storm on your own head isn't such a bright idea, but who cares if you blow up your summon with it? You have infinite summons. Fiendish Red Shirts.

If the baddies are moving in too close, switch to Fear.

[Ecstatic]

A fiend pact can kill themselves quite fast simply through icestorm's AoE damage then.

Blind fight helps on ranged touch attacks, so yes it's good to take.


What happens to warlocks who were level 30? Do they just get to keep their old spell lists or will they be made to have their spells fixed?

Between physical DR and energy buffer, the fiendlock will just about never friendly fire themselves with ice storm.

[Realoms]

The cold damage is easily stopped, yea. Unless you're counting extra physical DR I'm not sure how you prevent that. Admittedly, I forgot about energy buffer, I'll retract my former statement.

Aside but relevant- can you stop the new summons from stealthing somehow? I notice they stealth when I do but that means spawns may not target them.
Suggestions, please?