Warlocks

[Yellena]

Just checking to see if I got it right:
1) Blast damage only apply to the primary targets of spells. On spells that are area of effect, only the target I "click" on takes the Blast damage?
2) What happens if I aim on the ground, so the spell don't hit my allies or myself? Will the Blast damage trigger on who?
3) That means, even tought this can be powerful at distance, at close range the warlock can't use Ice Storms at max potential without targeting himself (if he choose to do so, the blast damage won't trigger, as he would beed to aim on the ground)?

If the spell still checks for SR, it will be blocked by a Spell Mantle. A single scroll can help someone engage the warlock melee and nullify a good portion of the possible "overwhelming" potential being discussed. High Spell Resistance would also limitate their potential even if the spell is given at a lower level.
- 32 SR means 50% chance of landing it at lvl 22 (or at 18 with Greater Spell Penetration feats).
- Against the Spell Resistance, from Druid and Clerics (that everyone uses), a Warlock with Spell Penetration would have a 50% chance to penetrate if the caster levels are the same.

While I can see it's power in PvE, it can be worked arround in PvP with some easy. And an important note is that this spell hits EVERYONE in the area, what would be tricky to use with allies. And yet, as a spell being cast, it could be counter spelled....

I would say that I would not be very excited to earn it as a final prize at lvl 28. Good, no question, but the drawbacks are huge also.
Now, if it was something to fit a Demon/Devil theme more, like a fiery rain....




As for the DR, I wouldn't say it's a bad thing. Just drop the HD back to 6. Critical damages still can bypass it and if worries are about the PvP aspect: a good weapon master build will crit 40~50% of the time for 100+ damage...
They may have close to the DD DR, but they when comparing, they lack:
-Good Fort Save
-Tons of HP
-Sneak Attack immunity while fighting
-Good AB
-Defensive Stance
-Good ale
And you can aways go WLK12/DD28... =P

[Razmo_de]

Will the DR stack with other sources?
I.e., will it be damage resistance
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_resistance
or damage reduction
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reduction
?

[one day remains]

I'd still say just replace the first one with uncanny dodge and then progress upwards with DR. Implementing that would stop building AC on warlocks from being pointless and would also prevent the DR from being comparable to a DD's. The use of Barb feats could be cool though.

Eh wait, no it would stack. I'm thinking of elemental resistance not stacking between feats...

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Regarding Feylocks:

- Please consider giving them the ability to summon different kinds of faeries with different abilities dependent on the task.
- Please consider, at high level, giving them the ability to summon a Faerie Host (lots of faeries) but for a short duration.

The individual faeries should be weak, but potentially annoying, perhaps with a unique buff to offer the Feylock (and his companions).

I would suggest the Feylock remains more bardlike than the other warlocks; but rather than the buffs of bardsong being music; they are embodied in the presence of the faeries.

Think Gullivers travels. Think a swarm of Lilliputians.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Why couldn't non-fey warlocks also get to cast Haste?

[Ecstatic]

Druid/cleric SR can be removed with a breaching wand, same with mantles, and mantle scrolls won't hold up well against spam: iirc, mantles will absorb about 12 spell levels on average, unless you reach for greater mantle scrolls. since the lock can drop 2 spells per round on you of level 6, you have to burn one mantle per round to keep the damage off. since scrolls take a round to activate, this is a water-treading proposition, especially as the Warlock can keep going indefinitely. Additionally, at 30 CL the warlock will go through 32 SR with 95% success; a lock that takes 2 spell penetration feats, even with 3 levels to multiclass will beat that with 100% success rate.

That's not even touching on the PvE nightmare you get out of combining that much damage with that much survivability.

Personally, I don't think dropping the damage from 210 (1d6/level) per round plus the effects of 2 hostile spells to 150 per round (d4/level) plus the effect of 2 hostile spells would make the lock underwhelming. What it would do is make them a small bit worse at nuking single targets than TFs are, prior to getting autoquicken 3.

With the current damage scaling, a level 18 lock will outdamage a level 18 TF against a single target (126 average damage per round vs 120) and have defensive spells with it, and that TF has just about capped out their offensive potential until they get Autoquicken (level 29-30 for all three counts).

And regarding the point that locks won't have AB on par with a DD: it really doesn't matter. A warlock will land two blasts per round while hasted. AB is not needed.

[Mithreas]

Q: To get lower levels of DR, could you use the Barbarian DR feat?
A: Yes, but then if you multiclassed with Barbarian things would get whacky.

Q: Yellana's questions about blast damage. I think I've answered all those in the thread already.

Q: DR or DR?
A: It will be 5/- Damage Resistance so it will stack with (e.g.) 5/+1 Damage Reduction from Ghostly Visage.

Q: Uncanny Dodge vs DR
A: Yeah, I can see doing Uncanny Dodge at lvl 10, 5/- DR at level 20 and 10/- DR at level 30. The d8 hit dice helps with survivability.

Q: Summoning fairies.
A: I'm trying to keep the two types of Warlock distinct. I could perhaps give Summon 1 to Feylock and Summon 2+ to Fiendlock, with Summon 1 summoning fairies, but I don't really like the lore implications: pacted to a fey means serving them, not being served by them. Pacting to a fiend doesn't stop you summoning lesser fiends. I see feylock as having strong arcane trickster resonances, while Fiendlock is about the raw power of the Abyss/Hells.

Q: Haste for Fiendlocks.
A: See above about trying to keep the two distinct. Haste gives the Feylock an extra attack and the ability to dance. Summons give the Fiendlock multiple extra, generally weaker attacks, and a meatshield to reduce the need to dance.

[Hamatreya]

Perhaps give "Cat's Grace" to feylocks, "Bull's Strength" to fiendlocks, and "Eagle's Splendor" to both. Charisma is their primary casting stat, after all.

I am not at all worried about the DR, though I would prefer it changed to 15/+6 so as to make it unstackable with the epic damage reduction line of feats. While warlocks do have damage reduction on pen-and-paper, allowing them the possibility, in Arelith, of achieving damage reduction greater than a class whose only real draw is damage reduction (read: Dwarven Defender) is a major middle finger to that class.

Why /+6? Here's my reasoning. Casters and scrolls of "Greater Magic Weapon" are ridiculously easy to come by, last a long time, and cannot be dispelled. Thus, in PvP encounters, the "boon" of damage reduction will be entirely negated by any cleric or melee character with 1 point invested in UMD. Make it /+6 and it will only be negated by a fully-devoted fighter or arcane archer.

Tagging it with /+6 also makes it unable to be stacked with the epic damage reduction line of feats. There is already another class with /+6 DR, Dragonshapers, and no one's ever made too much of a fuss about that. I suppose fully devoted level 30 warlocks will be just as, if not more rare than epic dragon shapers. After all, the save and AC bonuses from blackguard are too much for many to pass up.

Finally, since feylocks are "supposed" to be the melee-oriented half of the subclass, perhaps consider giving them "Greater Magic Weapon?"

[Hunter548]

How would CHA affect warlocks, now? It would presumably affect DCs- Would they need CHA to get all their spells?


Additionally: If the intent is to have fiend warlocks be summoner/damage dealers, while fey are arcane trickster, why not leave fey warlock damage as it currently is- 1d6 per two levels. They still do okay damage with 30d6 a round while hasted, esp. with confusion or whatever, and give fiend warlocks the 1d4 per level (Or whatever) , giving them slightly higher damage.

[The Rambling Midget]

Q: Haste for Fiendlocks.
A: See above about trying to keep the two distinct. Haste gives the Feylock an extra attack and the ability to dance. Summons give the Fiendlock multiple extra, generally weaker attacks, and a meatshield to reduce the need to dance.

My Abyssal Warlock was DEX based (10 CON and never boosted with gear) and cross classed with Shadowdancer, to make her a slippery dancer type, which I thought fit very well with her pact to Malcanthet.
I like the idea of making them more distinct, but I'd hate for that flexibility of RP to be entirely lost.

[Roketter]

It seems most agree 1d4 +touch attack is best. Now what would be the formula for dcs?

[Baron Saturday]

Actually, they won't get all their spells by level 20. e.g. summon 6 (which will probably be the balor) would likely be granted at 26 as before.

Would Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration work with fiendlock summons, so that summon 5 would then get the balor? If so, what would summon 6 get?

[Mithreas]

Proposed detailed spell lists.

Code: Select all

      Fey                    Abyssal/Infernal
  1   Daze (0), Light (0)    Flare (0), Light (0)          
  2   Sleep (1), Exp Ret (1) Summon Creature (1), Lesser Dispel (1)
  3   Mage Armor (1)         Balagarn's Iron Horn (1)
  4   Tasha's Laughter (2)   Bull's Strength (2)
  5   Cure Minor (0)         Resistance (0)
  6   Charm Person (1)       Protection from Alignment (1)
  7   Displacement (3)       Bestow Curse (3)
  8   Hold Person (2)        Summon Creature (2)
  9   Ghostly Visage (2)     Darkness (2)
  10  Hold Monster (4)       Dismissal (4)
  11  Invisibility (2)       Ultravision (2)
      Cloud of Bewilder (2)  Gust of Wind (3) 
  12  Slow (3)               Summon Creature (3)
  13  Mind Fog (5)           Magic Circle vs Alignment (3)
  14      Dispel Magic (3), Eagle's Splendour (2) 
  15  Haste (3)              Fear (3)
  16            Energy Buffer (6)      
  17  Dominate Person (4)    Summon Creature (4)
  18  Invis Sphere (3)       See Invis (2)
  19  Ethereal Visage (5)    Cat's Grace (2)
  20  Confusion (3)          War Cry (4)  
  21  Improved Invis (4)     Summon Creature (5)
  22
  23           Greater Dispelling (5)
  24                           
  25  Dirge (6)               Summon Creature (6) 
  26                        
  27
  28  Mass Haste (6)          Ice Storm (6)
  29
  30

Summon list:
Summon Creature 1 (level 2): Boar summon reskinned as a Hellhound.
Summon Creature 2 (level 8): BG new Imp
Summon Creature 3 (level 12): BG new Succubus
Summon Creature 4 (level 17): BG new Vrock
Summon Creature 5 (level 21): Greater Vrock
Summon Creature 6 (level 25): BG new Balor

Summon 6 + greater conj: Balor Lord.

[Hamatreya]

Proposed detailed spell lists.

Code: Select all

      Fey                    Abyssal/Infernal
  1   Daze (0), Light (0)    Flare (0), Light (0)          
  2   Sleep (1), Exp Ret (1) Summon Creature (1), Lesser Dispel (1)
  3   Mage Armor (1)         Balagarn's Iron Horn (1)
  4   Tasha's Laughter (2)   Bull's Strength (2)
  5   Cure Minor (0)         Resistance (0)
  6   Charm Person (1)       Protection from Alignment (1)
  7   Displacement (3)       Bestow Curse (3)
  8   Hold Person (2)        Summon Creature (2)
  9   Ghostly Visage (2)     Darkness (2)
  10  Hold Monster (4)       Dismissal (4)
  11  Invisibility (2)       Ultravision (2)
      Cloud of Bewilder (2)  Gust of Wind (3) 
  12  Slow (3)               Summon Creature (3)
  13  Mind Fog (5)           Magic Circle vs Alignment (3)
  14      Dispel Magic (3), Eagle's Splendour (2) 
  15  Haste (3)              Fear (3)
  16            Energy Buffer (6)      
  17  Dominate Person (4)    Summon Creature (4)
  18  Invis Sphere (3)       See Invis (2)
  19  Ethereal Visage (5)    Cat's Grace (2)
  20  Confusion (3)          War Cry (4)  
  21  Improved Invis (4)     Summon Creature (5)
  22
  23           Greater Dispelling (5)
  24                           
  25  Dirge (6)               Summon Creature (6) 
  26                        
  27
  28  Mass Haste (6)          Ice Storm (6)
  29
  30

Summon list:
Summon Creature 1 (level 2): Boar summon reskinned as a Hellhound.
Summon Creature 2 (level 8): BG new Imp
Summon Creature 3 (level 12): BG new Succubus
Summon Creature 4 (level 17): BG new Vrock
Summon Creature 5 (level 21): Greater Vrock
Summon Creature 6 (level 25): BG new Balor

Summon 6 + greater conj: Balor Lord.

How will DCs be calculated? Sans Epic Spell Focus, dominates are generally pretty weak, confusions ineffective, etc.
And would it be too much to fit in Greater Magic Weapon to both, somehow?

Also, feylock seems more DC-oriented, thus more dependent on Charisma. Shouldn't both have Eagle's Splendor?

Trying my best to voice my concerns without being petulant.

Right now, I'm loving the idea of being a hasted feylock, blasting once or twice, turning invisible, showing up behind the enemy, blasting again, turning invisible again, etc. Hehe.

[Hunter548]

Are infernal warlocks still going to be stuck summoning shedloads of demons?

[Mithreas]

Not keen to give them GMW, they have enough cookies.
Both pacts get Dispel Magic (3), Eagle's Splendour (2) at 14, Energy Buffer at 16 and Greater Dispelling at 23.
I'm going to leave DCs as they are for now, because I don't want to overpower the class out of the gate. I can always up them later.

And I really ought to fix the code that attempts to rename infernal summons to abyssal and vice versa.

[Ecstatic]

A heavy focus in charisma (now possible with decreased dex and con needs) can put the DCs on Feylock spells into the low to mid 30s. It's not an epic enchantment dominate monster, by any means, but given it combos up with a decent chunk of damage, a higher DC might be relatively overwhelming.

[Hunter548]

I still think fiend warlocks should do more damage than fey due to lack of versatility compared to fey, but that's just me. I like it otherwise.

[Hamatreya]

A heavy focus in charisma (now possible with decreased dex and con needs) can put the DCs on Feylock spells into the low to mid 30s. It's not an epic enchantment dominate monster, by any means, but given it combos up with a decent chunk of damage, a higher DC might be relatively overwhelming.

So the "blast" is no longer considered a touch attack?

Base 10 + Spell Level 4 + Greater Focus 4 + Charisma Modifier of 16 = DC 34
And to get that I had to invest 5 epic feats into Great Charisma V.

Still, that's more than decent, and considering the warlock can spam them to her heart's content (while remaining invisible in the case of dominate; I don't believe it breaks invisibility), I'm more than happy with it. Still, considering that in PvP both dominate and hold are easily countered with a widely available and cheap potion, I'd like to see these "keystone" abilities buffed a bit for purposes of PvE, perhaps to what it was before: 10 + 1/2 Warlock Level + Charisma Mod.

That being said, I'm just speaking on what I'd "like" to see. It's more than decent as it is.

[Realoms]

I like it. Though I do feel a bit as though the spell order could be adjusted just a little bit.

But I'll take another look and edit this in a bit when I'm not making myself write Uni papers.

[Hamatreya]

Druid/cleric SR can be removed with a breaching wand, same with mantles, and mantle scrolls won't hold up well against spam: iirc, mantles will absorb about 12 spell levels on average, unless you reach for greater mantle scrolls. since the lock can drop 2 spells per round on you of level 6, you have to burn one mantle per round to keep the damage off. since scrolls take a round to activate, this is a water-treading proposition, especially as the Warlock can keep going indefinitely. Additionally, at 30 CL the warlock will go through 32 SR with 95% success; a lock that takes 2 spell penetration feats, even with 3 levels to multiclass will beat that with 100% success rate.

That's not even touching on the PvE nightmare you get out of combining that much damage with that much survivability.

Personally, I don't think dropping the damage from 210 (1d6/level) per round plus the effects of 2 hostile spells to 150 per round (d4/level) plus the effect of 2 hostile spells would make the lock underwhelming. What it would do is make them a small bit worse at nuking single targets than TFs are, prior to getting autoquicken 3.

With the current damage scaling, a level 18 lock will outdamage a level 18 TF against a single target (126 average damage per round vs 120) and have defensive spells with it, and that TF has just about capped out their offensive potential until they get Autoquicken (level 29-30 for all three counts).

And regarding the point that locks won't have AB on par with a DD: it really doesn't matter. A warlock will land two blasts per round while hasted. AB is not needed.

Also consider that a mage will have to invest pretty heavily in concentration, concentration feats and concentration gear if he intends on succeeding those rolls versus 75 damage (30d4), twice a round when considering hasted feylocks. This fact alone makes warlocks finally able to compete with sorcerers and wizards in PvP, provided they get the jump, and that makes me quite happy.

Another question: will the "blasts" still have accompanying affects (stuns, blinds, etc.)?

[Anime Sword Fighter]

Is it possible to give each of the paths their own unique one use a day spell as the two gifts, that each give Invis. once a day or Darkness once a day?
Maybe for UnSeelie: Polymorph x1 a day
Abyssal: Stinking Cloud x1 a day
Infernal: Wall of Fire x1 a day.
Is this possible, and if not how would it differ from the gift of darkness & invis. to make it impossible?
Or if it isn't wanted just disregard entirely.
Was thinking maybe to give each path something unique that isn't really for fighting mainly- but couldn't think of things really other than polymorph. Maybe Polymorph, Grease, ect. Utility-like spells.

Or maybe just give them each Monstrous Regeneration like it? I'd actually like to see that with Kensai.. but I'm just rambling here whoohoo.

Any expected ETA for implementation of this glorious new path, btw?

[one day remains]

Only thing I would say in regard to the spell selection is to perhaps swap mass haste with etherial visage for the feylock. in essence mass haste isn't THAT much of an upgrade due to be being able to spam normal haste and the perks obtained from ethereal are somewhat more beneficial:

NWN Wiki
"grants damage reduction 20/+3, prevents all spells of level 2 or lower from affecting the caster and provides a 25% concealment bonus. "

Considering someone will be potentially able to use extended spell on this, unless of course it occupies a higher spell slot, it can last an IG hour a cast and be infinitely spammed at level 30.

The mass +4 AC, speed increase and extra attack obtained from mass haste seems lesser in my opinion simply because it's possible to already do to a group in a round or 2 when hasted. Ethereal is much more comparable to ice storm.

[Baron Saturday]

Only thing I would say in regard to the spell selection is to perhaps swap mass haste with etherial visage for the feylock.

Check the spell list again - Feylocks get Ethereal Visage at 19.

[Baron Saturday]

I would push for Sound Burst on the Fiendlock list, replacing, say, Balagarn's - which, as a non-targeted spell, isn't going to proc the blast damage. Plus, Sound Burst seems to better fit the concept of the Fiendlock as an offensive caster.

I'm also a bit dubious about cat's grace at level 19, but have no idea what I'd put there instead. It just seems... out of place.