Roleplay on stealing / theft / pickpockets

[Timzhem]

Adventurers!

A day ago I was a witness of a pickpocket getting accused of stealing from a person in Skal.
Now we all now Skal is a lawless place and thieving is a bad thingy (Bad you for doing it! xD ) but I find it very cringy to watch that on one of the greatest roleplay server of NVN this just always seems to be handeld in an idiot way.
As an short, bold example:

A) You stole from me and C saw it!
B) I did not steal, do you have prove?
A) Yes, C saw it happen!
C) Yes I did see you steal!
A) (Bashes the player down and kills him/her)

Like, come on people! It is a roleplay server!
Even rogues, thieves and pickpockets deserve better then this IMO...
I really hate to see such short, tunnelvision RP because someone stole from you.

Is your character really wanting to become a murderer over someone picking his pockets?
Are there no other ways to settle the disagreement / theft?
Why is the pickpocket stealing? Are there other reasons behind it?

Delve into it, find out and engage in the RP the pickpocket is getting you into.
People playing a pickpocket know how hard the RP around this can when everyone just bashes in your head.
In my opionin this is very cringe to watch and I just hate people doing it.

This is after all an RP server, not a PVP server. Keep that, and your IC person in mind when u wander into such adventure.

Well, all of the above is just what I noticed recently happening a lot.
I am curious on other point of view on this subject.
So, lets get a discussion started!

Do pickpockets deserve more roleplay or do we keep bashing their heads in because they stole from us and let our IC become a murderer for it?

[TheDoctor]

I hate to say it like this but welcome to Skal.

[silverpheonix]

Thieves IRL will have a whole, live lobster stuffed down their pants and loudly protest that they aren't stealing.

[Timzhem]

Hahaha

It is just about the idea.
Are you letting your character actually murder a thief that easy if he steals?
What if you play a chaotic good or lawful good character?
Don't you value all life and dont you think there are other ways to punish a thief?

I feel like most people just tend to murder a thief to get it over with.
Which, IC, will make your character a murderer. Is that something you really want?
Or are we just going to embrace the fact that everyon then simply is a murderer and is murder OK?

Where is the differance then between good and evil?

[chris a gogo]

This comes up every so often.
Pretty simply you get what you give, so if your a pick pocket and your role playing with your mark emoting touching them and things like this it makes it interactive, and if your caught your unlikely to get killed as you gave the victim some role play and earned there time and money.

If your whole interaction is click PP as you pass someone while in stealth then you pretty much get the same level of role play back, and fully deserve the KB response.

[Cthuletta]

I personally hate the pickpocket mechanics for the 'RP' it 9 times outta 10 does NOT generate.

Scenerio 1) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Immediately runs away, doesn't RP at all.
Scenerio 2) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Claims they didn't steal, usually gets bonked.
Scenerio 3) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt... claims they didn't steal, OR owns up to the fact they did, and gets arrested, fined, or returns what they took.

The last scenerio is ideal, but I've seen it happen maybe a handful of times while the other two are FAR more prominent, usually the first one, which results in people chasing them down to subdue/murder because... what're you gonna do if they won't stop and roleplay with you?
That said, if they are roleplaying and get smacked down anyway, that can lead to more roleplay against the person who your character might believe overreacted to something simple as theft.

Also, yeah, welcome to Skal. The term 'Might makes right' is flung around pretty often but it's a bit more literal when it comes to a place with no active/consistent player guard force.

[Amateur Hour]

One of the earliest Cordor start quests has you raiding a gang's camp and just killing everyone, so...yeah. We're basically all murderers.

But beyond that, I think we've got an unfortunate chicken-and-egg situation. The "chicken" side is that we know that pickpockets are going to get murdered, but the "egg" side is that we know the vast majority of pickpockets aren't interested in telling a story and aren't going to be convinced to stop pickpocketing. They built their characters for this skill. They're going to keep doing it. Even if they have a moment of "yes sir/ma'am I have learned my lesson yepyep I will never steal again hand on heart"...they're going to do it tomorrow once the 24 hour timer is up. The whole "they're all the same" argument isn't necessarily the healthiest one...but it's very easy to get burnt out on non-reforming pickpockets.

This is particularly on display on Skal, where frontier justice reigns. There is no guard force. I've seen the lack of law lead to some great stories - one comes to mind where two groups 'hired' a mediator to deal with a conflict - but when it comes to pickpockets, killing them is about the only thing that gets a meaningful pause in the conflict.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I personally hate the pickpocket mechanics for the 'RP' it 9 times outta 10 does NOT generate.

Scenerio 1) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Immediately runs away, doesn't RP at all.
Scenerio 2) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Claims they didn't steal, usually gets bonked.
Scenerio 3) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt... claims they didn't steal, OR owns up to the fact they did, and gets arrested, fined, or returns what they took.

The last scenerio is ideal, but I've seen it happen maybe a handful of times while the other two are FAR more prominent, usually the first one, which results in people chasing them down to subdue/murder because... what're you gonna do if they won't stop and roleplay with you?
That said, if they are roleplaying and get smacked down anyway, that can lead to more roleplay against the person who your character might believe overreacted to something simple as theft.

Also, yeah, welcome to Skal. The term 'Might makes right' is flung around pretty often but it's a bit more literal when it comes to a place with no active/consistent player guard force.

remember when I put a pickpocket in the stockades and everyone was like "this is barbaric!!!" but no one bats an eye at literal murder?

yeah I remember that too

[Aeryeris]

I personally hate the pickpocket mechanics for the 'RP' it 9 times outta 10 does NOT generate.

Scenerio 1) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Immediately runs away, doesn't RP at all.
Scenerio 2) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Claims they didn't steal, usually gets bonked.
Scenerio 3) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt... claims they didn't steal, OR owns up to the fact they did, and gets arrested, fined, or returns what they took.

The last scenerio is ideal, but I've seen it happen maybe a handful of times while the other two are FAR more prominent, usually the first one, which results in people chasing them down to subdue/murder because... what're you gonna do if they won't stop and roleplay with you?
That said, if they are roleplaying and get smacked down anyway, that can lead to more roleplay against the person who your character might believe overreacted to something simple as theft.

Also, yeah, welcome to Skal. The term 'Might makes right' is flung around pretty often but it's a bit more literal when it comes to a place with no active/consistent player guard force.

remember when I put a pickpocket in the stockades and everyone was like "this is barbaric!!!" but no one bats an eye at literal murder?

yeah I remember that too

I have seen this scenario a few times now. It is really hard to change that mindset.

[Eyeliner]

Disable pickpockets stealing gold from other PCs entirely, I don't think it will ever work. Steal gold from mobs and NPCs.

Instead let sleight of hand skill put something INTO another PC's inventory unseen. A gift, a note, a key, a stack of coal to wreck their encumbrance... etc. Opens up a million RP opportunities beyond "steal 1000 gold, get away or get killed"

[Timzhem]

This comes up every so often.
Pretty simply you get what you give, so if your a pick pocket and your role playing with your mark emoting touching them and things like this it makes it interactive, and if your caught your unlikely to get killed as you gave the victim some role play and earned there time and money.

If your whole interaction is click PP as you pass someone while in stealth then you pretty much get the same level of role play back, and fully deserve the KB response.

I agree to what you are saying. It is the responsibility from the person RPing the Thief aswell.

I personally hate the pickpocket mechanics for the 'RP' it 9 times outta 10 does NOT generate.

Scenerio 1) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Immediately runs away, doesn't RP at all.
Scenerio 2) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Claims they didn't steal, usually gets bonked.
Scenerio 3) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt... claims they didn't steal, OR owns up to the fact they did, and gets arrested, fined, or returns what they took.

The last scenerio is ideal, but I've seen it happen maybe a handful of times while the other two are FAR more prominent, usually the first one, which results in people chasing them down to subdue/murder because... what're you gonna do if they won't stop and roleplay with you?
That said, if they are roleplaying and get smacked down anyway, that can lead to more roleplay against the person who your character might believe overreacted to something simple as theft.

Also, yeah, welcome to Skal. The term 'Might makes right' is flung around pretty often but it's a bit more literal when it comes to a place with no active/consistent player guard force.

And yeah, clicking PP in stealth is a silly way to RP a thief. They should also upgrade their RPing. But I think the main issue here is that some people find it hard to RP and try their best to learn. When you then get instantly bashed for stealing that is not helping anyone IMO.

Though, I totally agree that it is a responsibility for the thief aswell as the "judge" to put RP first no matter the fact and keep their CI in play.

One of the earliest Cordor start quests has you raiding a gang's camp and just killing everyone, so...yeah. We're basically all murderers.

I agree. There is a differance between murdering a bandit that threathens the town (for a quest) and a thief that actually lives, contributes and is socially active in the town.

[Nobs]

i once rolled pockets through rp in Cordor as a badger with 0 pp skill and folks gave me 3-4k gold as rewards and there was a little chase where one of the guards captured my toon with rp pvp emotes.

Also pp from stealth where my toon was spotted by some one in skal and the whole town went crazy and fought one another as some tried to help my toon and others tried to kill him.

Both was fun to see play out. Shrugs

[Hobojoe]

Like, come on people! It is a roleplay server!
Even rogues, thieves and pickpockets deserve better then this IMO...
I really hate to see such short, tunnelvision RP because someone stole from you.

Uh, it goes both ways. If a thief actually offers me an opportunity to role play, creates some sort of engagement, even just emotes brushing passed me then I'm happy to play along...all to often though you'll get some mass pickpocket spammer taking the mickey, robbing enmasse, ignoring all effort to RP, leaving violence as the only real recourse beyond leaving them to it.

Add in the fact that the pickpocket very often opens the encounter and sets the tone....

In short, you often get what you give!

[Gaal]

Adventurers!

A day ago I was a witness of a pickpocket getting accused of stealing from a person in Skal.
Now we all now Skal is a lawless place and thieving is a bad thingy (Bad you for doing it! xD ) but I find it very cringy to watch that on one of the greatest roleplay server of NVN this just always seems to be handeld in an idiot way.
As an short, bold example:

A) You stole from me and C saw it!
B) I did not steal, do you have prove?
A) Yes, C saw it happen!
C) Yes I did see you steal!
A) (Bashes the player down and kills him/her)

Like, come on people! It is a roleplay server!
Even rogues, thieves and pickpockets deserve better then this IMO...
I really hate to see such short, tunnelvision RP because someone stole from you.

Is your character really wanting to become a murderer over someone picking his pockets?
Are there no other ways to settle the disagreement / theft?
Why is the pickpocket stealing? Are there other reasons behind it?

Delve into it, find out and engage in the RP the pickpocket is getting you into.
People playing a pickpocket know how hard the RP around this can when everyone just bashes in your head.
In my opionin this is very cringe to watch and I just hate people doing it.

This is after all an RP server, not a PVP server. Keep that, and your IC person in mind when u wander into such adventure.

Well, all of the above is just what I noticed recently happening a lot.
I am curious on other point of view on this subject.
So, lets get a discussion started!

Do pickpockets deserve more roleplay or do we keep bashing their heads in because they stole from us and let our IC become a murderer for it?

RP RP RP, I have had great roleplay interactions pickpocketing others some resulted in me being arrested. Ironically, on a new character, I had just pickpocketed someone just a minute or two prior. The whole ruckus, I though was over me until i overheard more lol. I was a bit disappointed that I ended up not being part of that RP.

[Lexx]

It should be enforced required RP to initiate a PP on a PC. It shouldn't be seen as a means for your chars primary income. But an RP tool. Stealthing past or doing it as you pass a crowded room just leaves a bitter taste for most and doesn't really contribute anything.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm totally cool with pick pockets, especially the way they are now with the minimalized damage they can do. I do however think removing stealth from the equation would be best. Spot to match an all-in pick pocket and stealther is a rare thing, giving the pick pocket a massive advantage because you not only have to see them you also have to spot them in the deed. And while I don't think forcing a pick pocket into easily deciphered roleplay is the way to go especially given the hate for pick pockets in general, being able to see them at least narrows the list of suspects down in a crowded square or whatever.

[RedGiant]

RedGiant got opinions!

I generally agree with the "you get what you give" side of this. Just like PvP, it will generally go well if there are two competent RPers on each end.

Related to this conversation, I prefer the pick pocket mechanic for theifyness 1000% over, say, quarter breaking. I even prefer the bad options listed above, because, hey, at least we're actually online at the same time and there is some hope of actual human interaction.

[Dr Mantis Toboggan MD]

Related to this conversation, I prefer the pick pocket mechanic for theifyness 1000% over, say, quarter breaking. I generally prefer even prefer it over the bad options listed above, because, hey, at least we're actually online at the same time and there is some hope of actual human interaction.

Yeah, when the options maybe RP versus none, I'll take the maybe!

All the thiefy stuff lends itself to grief and RP laziness though, with pick pocketers it's more often than not total avoidance of RP and reliance of mechanics to avoid consequence and with quarter breaking it's often the same, maybe with the added bonus of an anonymous note calling the homeowner some type of moron for not investing in better locks That's not to say it's all like that, but it's a lot of it!

[RedGiant]

Yeah, when the options maybe RP versus none, I'll take the maybe!

All the thiefy stuff lends itself to grief and RP laziness though, with pick pocketers it's more often than not total avoidance of RP and reliance of mechanics to avoid consequence and with quarter breaking it's often the same, maybe with the added bonus of an anonymous note calling the homeowner some type of moron for not investing in better locks That's not to say it's all like that, but it's a lot of it!

A note exactly as you describe is the best/only RP I've ever gotten out of quarter-breaking in...I don't want to say how many years of Arelith.

Pick Pocket, on the other hand, I've had some great interactions on and...even worst case scenario...you occasionally get the pleasure of a blade orb going off...or pulverizing someone who refuses all other routes.

That being said, just today, someone was running around the hub invisible, with no RP, seemingly chain PPing folks. I find the timing of this suspicious, in that I haven't seen that behavior in maybe over a decade? But now we have a thread and it's popping off all over.

[CragOrion]

If you feel there was poor RP or someone has broken server rules, it is always best to speak to a DM. The forums aren't really the place to call someone's RP out and tell them "yer doin it wrong."

Remember, always always always report.
If you don't know how, you can send a forum PM to all active DMs and someone will reach out to you to address the report.

My advice about what happened would just be...while you feel you have a better grasp about what makes good fun RP, try to remember not everyone has had the benefit of your experience and they might still be learning. Heck, I've been playing NWN for almost 20 years and I'm still learning better ways to make fun RP. We all make mistakes, and we all try to RP how we feel is the best at any given time, so try not to let stuff like this get to you. If you feel someone got the short end of the stick, you can always try RP'ing with them to make their day a little better.

Also remember that Skal was implimented as a place for new players to start out to help show them the ropes when it comes to RP.
I personally was rubbish as an RP'er when I fist started, but I had some great players take me under their wing who taught me a lot.

[AskRyze]

I personally hate the pickpocket mechanics for the 'RP' it 9 times outta 10 does NOT generate.

Scenerio 1) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Immediately runs away, doesn't RP at all.
Scenerio 2) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt. Claims they didn't steal, usually gets bonked.
Scenerio 3) Pickpocket gets caught in an attempt... claims they didn't steal, OR owns up to the fact they did, and gets arrested, fined, or returns what they took.

The last scenerio is ideal, but I've seen it happen maybe a handful of times while the other two are FAR more prominent, usually the first one, which results in people chasing them down to subdue/murder because... what're you gonna do if they won't stop and roleplay with you?
That said, if they are roleplaying and get smacked down anyway, that can lead to more roleplay against the person who your character might believe overreacted to something simple as theft.

Also, yeah, welcome to Skal. The term 'Might makes right' is flung around pretty often but it's a bit more literal when it comes to a place with no active/consistent player guard force.

remember when I put a pickpocket in the stockades and everyone was like "this is barbaric!!!" but no one bats an eye at literal murder?

yeah I remember that too

Hate to say it but every single non-Commoner who's come within a stone's throw of level 30 has murdered so many people (NPCs) IC, and the actual respawning/pvp rules are so pillow-fisted, that inconveniencing someone in a stocade for half an hour of their time is unironically, genuinely more of a consequence than killing them.