The pvp courtessy in bashing

[dirza]

To not mess up the death discussion i am posting it here.

I had been reading through the comments on the players courtesy on bashing/not bashing and how people express opinions like...that 90% of time it was done because OOC reasons (aka player dislikes or revenge).

The latter may be true, but...I think many of you are missing few important points. For the long time i spent here, the sound- name-players keep posting things like this all over the forums:
"we are here mainly for role play"
"the loss is part of story"
...and many similar.

And then, now re read your comments in death discussion. You write, that getting bashed is like loosing a day, or week of play. Huh? HUH? Still you do not get it? Arent we here for role play? If you call time spent on the role play server as "lost", "trashed" because someone killed and bashed you (or npc did), isnt something wrong on your side?

Months ago i would share that stance, but after two months break from game (lost interest), i decided to keep distance from game for this time...and suddenly, If i get into this situation and complain on loosing time by respawning, i have to tell myself it is my own problem, because we are here for the story and role play, not for dully grinding. And the story remains and experience from role play should make you richer, so if you call it lost time, definately is something wrong.


Then many raise up "player courtessy" as some kind of...religion even. You call it courtessy and with the same breath you curse everyone who does not auto-grant it to you. Thats why it is called courtessy. It is voluntary thing, not anything mandatory. Noone has right to demand it after anyone, it happens from the will of the player. Like when my friend mummy says "they are low lvls, lets go". This is the thing you seem to forget.

In past our drow didnt get often bash from elves. But if we did, i must say now we would have no right to be angry at that. And in addition it is just a game. Yes, i can imagine that elves killing and bashing drow in their own city (or any other UDers), would make me very angry but because this would be extremely weird thing to see happen within city with guards against outsiders (which exists only in RP manner anyway, a side note, do you remember the most often excuse for surfacers killing UDers in the broken Udos? Low population and similar silliness? Well this still happens in Anduanor, still same excuse? ).

When i started my Dirzva like almost year ago, i decided to quit the overused courtessy (almost abused), as folks around had no fear from anything. The knowledge this character can attack at any moment (well known i suppose ig?) and possible bash yours kept many toons acting towards her differently. I need to say for the whole existence, this drow who hates humans to the core of bones, got into pvp like three-to four times, and always because someone attacked her faction (and she will always side with drow attacked by non drow, no matter if verbal or physical), her companions, or insulted her (quite contrary to your insults to me on forum how i want to enforce my ego and punish other players).


My oppinion is that the courtessy has to be deserved, has to be freely given (not demanded), and in many situations has no sense (you taunt/attack drow/duergar/goblin whatever(elf?) in his city, and you expect him not to bash you, really? Just an example).

The guys who walked down the hub, cause conflict (often attacking lower lvls, bashing them), get killed, log, and repeat it next day after 24hrs again are ridiculous and of course, we cannot do anything about them (and i bet each city has such) and are different story. I and my friends tried to hunt few of those down, but hell, you trash your time on those people which you could invest into your group and develop anything

[Thake]

I'm not sure what you want to tell people with this. No offense, but to me it sounds like you try to reason your own corpse bashing.

To me, corpse bashing is nothing else than "telling" someone - withouth actually telling him: "Eff you, now if you want to keep playing, your only option is to respawn." You enforce something on someone else. You take away an option form someone else.
To me, this makes no sense. You could always find another option to play around this.. get proof of one's death. E.G. buy a skull (misc objects), rename it, hand it over as proof of death.
To me, the player still matters more than the character after all. Yes, that might be OOC. But I don't care. I'd always respect a player's tell "I don't like this or that, please let's play that in a different way". OOC again. So what.
From Arelith Main Page: Arelith's Golden Rules: We hate rules. Initially, our ONE rule was 'have fun'. I haven't met anyone who thinks getting his corpse bashed is actually fun. That's probably why I'm allergic to it.

For 'the guys who walked down the hub, causing conflicts, bashing corpses of low levels'.

...we cannot do anything about them...

No? What about the "Be nice rule"? Report. End of story.

[Arther Goodmane]

I agree with Thake. I personally can't think of a reasonable explanation, in character or out of character (that adheres to our golden rules at least), why one would want to actively desecrate a character's 'corpse'. Perhaps if you were playing a hard core Cyric Cultist? It's perfectly acceptable to just engage in 'PvP', then decide NOT to bring the player back. That extra step of destroying the corpse is...I don't know, unnecessary.

It essentially comes down to if you are willing to go out of your way to PvP, then chances are good you should also be willing to accept the consequences that come with it. There is nothing wrong with asking the opposition to bring your character back, but I don't think they are obligated to do that always. It's a case by case situation I suppose, as it often is.

If, however, you find yourself in ANY situation, EVER, where you do not want to be part of any PvP, but forced into anyway? Like Thake said, report it.

Lastly, Dirza, who is this "you" you keep referring to? Your's was the only post before mine and Thake's. Whoever this 'You' is, he sounds like an unpleasant person, thank goodness I never met him on the server.

[Dalenger]

As a rule of thumb, I never corpsebash unless the person actually asks for it (which sometimes they have). It just feels dickish, as I know not everyone has a ton of time to play the game. But its part of the game for a reason... you lost, and now you're weaker. If two Gods get in a fight and one of them pulls out on top, the one that lost usually loses a ton of power and has to hide in the shadows for a while. I kinda see this the same way.

I think the biggest issue here is that everyone keeps measuring everything in "time spent grinding", like grinding is this terrible horrible no good dirty thing that we just all have to do because if we don't, we'll never be able to RP. As if grinding and RPing are these two conflicting forces, you can only do one at at time, and if you don't scarafice enough time to the gods of grinding you'll never be able to enjoy RPing. If this is the case, I would suggest you revisit how and who with you grind. It really doesn't need to be such a terrible experience, assuming you're fine with it taking a bit longer to level.

I just kinda had to squeeze on my own two cents before this thread takes a dive, however, I do not doubt that it will reduce to bickering before the 2nd page. And so...

[Nekonecro]

Personally I allways prefered this gif for abandoning threads

[Thake]

Well, first I was like...

[Arther Goodmane]

I prefer Dalenger's Gif to be honest, it implies that the thread is about to crash XD

[Dalenger]

I prefer Dalenger's Gif to be honest, it implies that the thread is about to crash XD

thx bb, so true

[dirza]

II'd always respect a player's tell "I don't like this or that, please let's play that in a different way". OOC again. So what.
From Arelith Main Page: Arelith's Golden Rules: We hate rules. Initially, our ONE rule was 'have fun'. I haven't met anyone who thinks getting his corpse bashed is actually fun. That's probably why I'm allergic to it.

We dont share the same point of view then, for me its just a game. That though does not mean if person would ask me for something trhough tells in polite way, i wouldnt reason with him or her, that is totally something different. I cant see how bashing a body is taking option away from character, the character is already dead. If you dont want to risk being bashed, dont fight then? 80% of encounters i had, the other side managed to back off from conflict without any harm.

(And no, shouting at me through tells someone is low level in rude way is not going to help)

[CragOrion]

Be afraid of bashing. Maybe next time you'll try harder not to die

Seriously. We don't want to just bash because its the final "I win"

But if it fits the story, sure. When I was a guard, and I took down dangerous villians and criminals, I often bashed them because it made sense within the context. But other times, after killing someone, I might just leave their body in a semi-well trafficked area, because no, my pc wouldnt ic'ly raise them, but I also don't want to be a snuggybear and leave them waiting in fugue all day, because its still about their fun too. So, if it fits the rp, bash, but don't go crazy with it. Be nice, and be considerate. We all play here together.

[Cortex]

Bashing the corpse can also be interpreted as just beheading them for headhunting/trophy/whatever purposes.

[CragOrion]

edzachary

[grip]

I see bashing as a tool of RP. A very late game tool. One that is not to be used casually. PvP for me is fun, I enjoy it, and I think that it can promote RP. I try to make the most out of every single episode of PvP my characters get into. I want to make something of the PvP I loose: enemies, conflict, fear of the character, a reason to work against them and their group or faction. But more importantly I want to make something of PvP I win: Fun for the other player, a reason for them to consider me an enemy worth engaging with, a reason for their group or faction to want to come after my character and their faction. Corpse bashing only makes sense to me after months of conflict, months of trust between myself and the other player. But only if there is a level of trust between us that means this bashing will be looked at as the close of a chapter of RP and hopefully the beginning of a new chapter.

PvP bashing are not bad things when they are done as part of a story with the intention being fun and the promotion of RP. The problem arises when they do not promote story or RP, when they feel random and done for the sole purpose of bullying or for the want of showing off your characters strength. So ask yourself this before you get into PvP: Why am I doing this, why is my character doing this, and how will this promote further conflict instead of being an end to conflict.

[Gable Morninglord]

This has always been a grey area for me. I was always under the impression that corpse bashing was the norm, rather than the exception. I believe I read this in a posting from a DM on one of the old forums. I have always thought that in PvP, when a rivalry is so fierce that death would be an outcome, you would have to have a very good reason NOT to bash a corpse and leave your enemy dead.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this.

In a battle between Tormite vs. Banite, would it seem realistic that either one of them would let the other go without killing them as dead as possible?

I believe in good form, and sportsmanship. But I also believe that there has to be a consequence for losing and death. This consequence has to be adequate to really make you think twice about what you are doing, prepare, adapt, and ultimately get better. Thus making the game more fun for everyone.

[Nekonecro]

In a battle between Tormite vs. Banite, would it seem realistic that either one of them would let the other go without killing them as dead as possible?

Well in this specific example the Banites imprisoned the Tormites after defeating them in a duel, contacted their buddies for ransoming, freed the squire and then threw the higher ranked guy into a crypt for him to fight his way out.

Fun was had by all.

[Cortex]

In a battle between Tormite vs. Banite, would it seem realistic that either one of them would let the other go without killing them as dead as possible?

Well in this specific example the Banites imprisoned the Tormites after defeating them in a duel, contacted their buddies for ransoming, freed the squire and then threw the higher ranked guy into a crypt for him to fight his way out.

Fun was had by all.

I don't think he's refering to any specific case, this thread is about more general situations regardless.

[CookieMonster]

When I played an assassin type character, I would often ask the Player of the Character just killed if they would be willing to accept the loss of a finger in return for being dumped somewhere that could be found and raised.
The loss of a finger was by all means temporary, a few days of RPing the lack of one until it could be regenerated by a Cleric in a poof of magic.
Meanwhile, I took a Skeleton Knuckle to the basin and enchanted it as the finger of such and such a body.

In my own opinion, PvP should be used as a tool to create RP not as a climax to it. With regards to Nekonecro's example, the people involved in that RP were talking about it for weeks afterwards, about how cool it was and the fun they had had. If I were in the situation, I would want to make the most fun for everyone in the situation.

Since it is an RP server, people often seem to take the impression that the final punishment is being forced to respawn. Which in every sense is a little stupid really. 'Oh, the Gods thought to bring me back!'.
What is more humiliating and punishing than loosing in battle for your character, is then to be paraded by your victors. Sending you back to where you came, beaten and battered.

[Doc_001]

Uuuuh.
I don't usually condone corpsebashing in any case, and I definitely don't think it's been abused (being nice can be abused? What?) There are very few justifications for bashing, and I'm afraid I can't glean much more from the OP of this thread than "Here's my justification for bashing. Just testing the waters - does anyone agree with me?"

With that said, I'm outta here.

[Irongron]

There is no rule against bashing corpses, and it is something that each player can decide upon for themselves.

What follows is not server policy, but my own individual take on it.

Consider what your character would do?

It's not so hard a question. How would the Cordorian Guard deal with the body of a slain enemy, leave it lying on the street? A quiet corner of the graveyard? They'd be quite aware that the victim may have allies ready to raise them, so may take steps to prevent that. How would the treatment differ in a place like Andunor?

Burning the bodies of fallen enemies is not uncommon, nor is mounting their head, throwing them in a crow cage, in sea, or in some cases, eating them. In many, but not all cases one may simply walk away leaving them where they are.

What I don't like to see is OOC considerations play a part. Destroying a body to take XP from a character is one example that has, unfortunately, been widely used in the past (This is something, I believe, the recent respawn changes have negated). Giving an OOC raise is, in my view, just as bad. We are a RP server, and we should not break that for anything in game. The 'be nice' rule, in my view, should not extend to wholly breaking character, and we should never perform an action with our character that we then insist 'never happened'. What happens in game, happens. What your character does, they do.

Of course wildly dismembering a corpse with your weapon is likely to yield astonished glances, and should be reacted to as just what it is - a savage and brutal assult that most civilised beings would not simply shrug and walk on from.

Almost all times I have been involved in PvP have been followed with a tell conversation, often this has been to check is no feelings have been hurt, or complaints over how events have unfolded. For my own personal enjoyment this has often had a negative impact, as at that time, especially, I am invested in my PC and don't want to break character.

Still, as I said originally, there is no policy concerning this, and I don't believe there should be.

[Swirling Stars]

I agree with Thake. I personally can't think of a reasonable explanation, in character or out of character (that adheres to our golden rules at least), why one would want to actively desecrate a character's 'corpse'. Perhaps if you were playing a hard core Cyric Cultist? It's perfectly acceptable to just engage in 'PvP', then decide NOT to bring the player back. That extra step of destroying the corpse is...I don't know, unnecessary.

I can.
There are plenty of rp reasons for desecrating a corpse of a character. Here, I shall list a few examples.

1. Perhaps you ply a necromancer, desecrating a corpse is completely normal. Whether it be taking parts to maybe make some horrid construction or whatever other reason.
2. Perhaps you are an assassin who's been paid to take the head of another character. Thus once the deed is done, the head is choped off of said player character and taken for exchange of the bounty.
3. Perhaps your character is just extremly vengful and some other character killed your brother or something. Your character, as long as it's perfectly acceptable for the character to do this via alignment, could easily, in a fit of rage, keep swinging at the dead player character, desecrating it.
4. Perhaps you play an insane psychopathic cyricist who takes a body part as a trophy, this would be another reason to corpse bash as well.

Honestly, I could literally keep going on and on and on. There are very many reasons to corpse batch another player for ROLEPLAY reasons, not just ooc reasons. Hopefully with this new change, people will be more inclined to use roleplay reasons to corpse bash if they did not already, that is if they did not.

To be honest, I am surprised that many characters do not corpse bash as there are A LOT of evil aligned characters on the server at the moment. The only characters I can think of that would not probably 'desecrate' a corpse would be druids, characters with the trait of having respect for the dead and good aligned characters whom would not dishonor or disturb the dead. So the fact that there aren't as many corpse bashing actually means that many people are sympathetic and courteous enough to not do this to another player. With this new change, that courtesy may fade away because the cost of respawning is not as brutal now and people might actually do what their character would do for rp reasons rather than ooc reasons... Minimalising metagaming when it comes to killing another player. (Though it's very nice of someone to courtesy raise, it is still technically metagaming as it might not be something that the killer would actually do..)

Anyway, I said my peace. I'm personally really happy about the death change as it will encourage more roleplay rather than hindering it. Thank you to Irongron and the dev team!

Also:

In my own opinion, PvP should be used as a tool to create RP not as a climax to it. With regards to Nekonecro's example, the people involved in that RP were talking about it for weeks afterwards, about how cool it was and the fun they had had. If I were in the situation, I would want to make the most fun for everyone in the situation.

Yes. Well said.

[Yma23]

Speaking -strictly- personally...

My issue with Bashing isn't so much the xp loss, as that to me bashing a corpse feels like the other player saying, 'I don't want to continue this story any more, or rp with you further.'

Now there are exceptions of course. Even times where it feels like the bashing is entirely appropriate. But In general it feels like someone is hurrying to the end, that they just want to win this conflict and not draw it out to something more interesting.

Take some of the longest running conflicts in fiction. Lex Luther vs Superman. Joker vs Batman. Doctor Who vs Darleks. So on, so forth. In all these cases the story isn't 'And then X killed Y the end' There's always a reason why Y gets away, or is spared, or some such.

If someone bashes my character, if someone deliberatly goes to destroy them, what they'r saying is 'I want this conflict to end now and forever'. Which is fine I guess, but basialy ends the roleplay. So that's why I tend to avoid bashing folks unless there's no other option.

As an aside- one practice I -do- dispise is killing someone, then rather than bashing them, just hiding their body somewhere, or trash binning them. That -is- against the Be Nice rules IMO. If you want to prevent almost any chance of them being raised? Just bash them and save the player waiting around for ever. Or, if it's entirely against your characters ethos to do that, then let them know there's little chance of a res. I don't think that's terribly much to ask.

[SolitairUnwravelling]

My opinion on the matter as someone who has been on more than one end of the spectrum. I've bashed because oocly I got frustrated and went, "No, screw you. Pay for making me irritated". I've bashed for IC reasons, "There is a bounty on your head. I'm collecting it". Other IC reasons, "You are the most disgusting being I have every encountered. To leave you in one piece would be against everything I stand for". (There have been other times, I am sure. But those are the three that stand out.) In those three examples, I was a close ooc friend with the 3rd one, and knew from a prior discussion the other player would be fine with it. Which they were.
On the other hand? I've been bashed for different reasons as well. The IC reason, "There is a bounty on your head" or the ooc reason, "I killed you and don't like what you just did, so I'm going to bash you".

What I'm trying to clarify is that I think people need to realize (Myself included! I am guilty of this) that bashing and killing are not the same thing, and can not be justified with the same reasons. (Since OP is a drow and I've interacted with her, I shall use drow methodology as an example. This is not targeting her specifically, though). I'm in a drow city and pass a female drow. The drow expects me to show some sort of respect to her, else I'm to be slain. I refuse because of my 'honour' or whatever. The drow kills me. I feel this is fully justified. If I played a drow, I'd kill the human who didn't bow, or call me mistress in a heart beat. However, would I carve his corpse up into tiny pieces? Not unless I had actually been in need of human body parts for something. Would I take his head? Maybe.That would depend entirely upon who the human is. If it's some unknown wannabe idiot whose just being cocky? I'd ignore the corpse as though it were unimportant trash. Why waste time on something pathetic 'and' dead, after all?
On the other hand, if the human was a well-known figure? Perhaps the leader of a faction.. Or a well known cage fighter? Then I 'would' have their head taken for my own pride. (Once again, this is seeing things through the eyes of a drowess).

So essentially, it's a by-example thing in my mind. It is NOT a case of, "It's nice or not nice to the other player". It's a case of, "Have I considered whether I'm bashing for me, or if I'm bashing because it makes sense for my character?"

[Thake]

You killed someone and he's dead. So far, so good.

If the player of the dead character decides: this was the final departure: Fine.
If that player, however wants to come back, he will come back. Either from a raise dead or through the portal. But he will come back.

Now bashing the corpse takes away one option, so your'e enforcing something on this player. Namely: I just decided, if you want to come back, you pay experience points... I could just leave you, because you're dead now and either way you'll comeback, but I'll make sure at the cost of XP.

There's plenty of ways to RP eating a dead body, without bashing it.. because honestly.. you have to hit it to a pulp, actively, so I could say "whatyouseeiswhatyouget" - someone bashing a corpse and not eating it, right? This goes for anything else you do with that body.
Does corpse bashing create RP? I doubt it.. does it leave a bad aftertaste? For a majority, I believe yes. (If there's someone who really wants to be bashed, please send me a PM so I can make sure to bash your corpses in the unlikely case I PvP you and win)

Now, I'm fine if everyone decides for him personally. I just don't see a point in bashing corpses, because that dude is coming back anyway. So you can just let that player decide whether he wants to try his luck and let his buddies go on a search to retrieve that body or if he just walks through the portal himself.


tl:dr
With the recent changes, I think my post is obsolete.

[Durvayas]

I generally don't bash unless it is for trophy purposes. My drowess currently is paying handsomely so a certain other drow's cranium can be used as the basin of a goblet.

[Black Wendigo]

Corpse bashing has been a source of contention for as long as I've been on the server (9 year now). I have mixed feelings on it' Generally I avoid it unless there is a very good reason for it.

There are many times I've been corpse bashed and it has been at the end of extensive rp. I don't have a problem iwth that. especially when it was on my level 30 char, Grendal.

I DO have a problem with any ooc reason for it, especially if it is an deliberate attempt to slow down chars' progression in an opposing faction.

There is one thing that I would like for people to understand however. Corpse bashing and PVP are rp enders. Because you then cannot interact with the opposing char for at least 24 hours. SO if you PK or corpse bash, please consider this.