Suggestion Discussion: Legendary Craftable Items

[High Primate]

This idea basically runs as follows:

-It would be nice to see some more recipes added to the crafting book. Among them could be items that a person with the relevant maxed out trade skill would have to roll very high to begin (like, 70 DCs), and that would take a very long time to finish (like, 2000 points). The incentive is that these items are very powerful, but the sheer difficulty of acquiring the ingredients combined with the luck and time required to create them would ensure that the server would not be inundated with them. Some possible examples:

-A category of metal that is superior in some respect to masterly damask (eg., keen, or with higher attack and damage bonuses).
-Powerful golems (eg., mithril, adamantine).
-And so on. These are just ideas.

The specific numbers and items I've proposed here are rough and are just there to get across the basic idea that these are rare items that only a master craftsperson can produce with a lot of time, effort, devotion, and luck. Thus, there could be an RP element to it.

I suppose level requirements are an issue (could anyone under level 31 use them?). I don't know if coding can be used to fix that, though I imagine it could be.

[innervoid]

I guess the closest to your suggestion is to keep rolling the 5% for something like keen on your masterly damask weapon until it procs. That would be epic, now do that again and I think that it would classify as legendary.

[Iceborn]

Just a fun reference of ye olde DnD;
Level 1-10: Heroic.
Level 11-20: Legendary.
Level +20: Epic.

May be slightly off. Been ages since last I read that.

[High Primate]

Well, level 11-20 is hardly the stuff of legend on Arelith.

[BattleDrake]

I think the real question, is why? I get people want to always be stronger, despite this being an RP server. But why do we need even stronger items then we already have? So you can PvP better? Solo dungeons easier? We already have artefacts that can be extremely rewarding and put you at a greater level, gear wise, than other people. Why do we need more? Asking not in a hostile way, just curious the mindset of all the people whom keep asking for stronger and stronger stuff.

[gilescorey]

I think the real question, is why? I get people want to always be stronger, despite this being an RP server. But why do we need even stronger items then we already have? So you can PvP better? Solo dungeons easier? We already have artefacts that can be extremely rewarding and put you at a greater level, gear wise, than other people. Why do we need more? Asking not in a hostile way, just curious the mindset of all the people whom keep asking for stronger and stronger stuff.

New stuff is cool! It's fun. Nearly everyone enjoys new content to explore, or to craft, or whatever.
Albeit maybe there ought to be more "side grades", so to speak than "upgrades".

[BattleDrake]

Not against new stuff. Argument is what type of new stuff and why. The question isn't whether or not there should be legendary items, it's why there should be. Do they boost rp in some way? Do they lead to the overall enjoyment of the server, and not just those whom wish to be the best? It's a why, not a no this idea is bad. If other items are suggested, then suggest them, but all I see is "I want to be able to craft a super overpowered weapon." With no reason other than "maybe some rp can come out of it"

[Griefmaker]

I think the real question, is why? I get people want to always be stronger, despite this being an RP server. But why do we need even stronger items then we already have? So you can PvP better? Solo dungeons easier? We already have artefacts that can be extremely rewarding and put you at a greater level, gear wise, than other people. Why do we need more? Asking not in a hostile way, just curious the mindset of all the people whom keep asking for stronger and stronger stuff.

New stuff is cool! It's fun. Nearly everyone enjoys new content to explore, or to craft, or whatever.
Albeit maybe there ought to be more "side grades", so to speak than "upgrades".

My thoughts are with gilescorey. New stuff is cool. New things to possibly find encourage me and others to get out more with the small hope budding within that there might be something worthy to talk about and show off in the Nomad over a pint or glass of wine later. New things offer more options, possibilities. There can never be too much new stuff.

Power creep is definitely a possible problem, but so is stagnation.

That is why I would be wary of more powerful stuff (though more artifacts with good or useful stats/abilities are never a bad thing), but the idea of "side grades" I think is excellent. Niche items which may target something special. Also a change to magic vestment and GMW. +1 per 5 levels. If you want that free +5 enhancement stuff, it requires dedication!

[Silent Handshake]

do we actually need better weapons?
why are we walking closer and closer to high fantasy?
cant we just get a fix on those that are already there?

would however be nice to see more class related items/weapons a paladin sword helping with smite but restricts something else, a rogues dagger that helps with open locks and disable traps, a wizards club for off hand that perhaps gave few spell slots? (minor enchanted items really but yeah class/race restricted gear)

[JediMindTrix]

I think it would be cool if 'Rod Crafting' became a thing. Casters can create rods using level 5 - 7 spells, and spend large amounts of gold and xp to craft them, turn around sell them for the hundreds of thousands.

[Scurvy Cur]

If there's one lesson we ought to have drawn from artifacts and their implementation, it should be that "they'll be difficult to get to and it'll be slow as hell to get good ones" did not translate, as it was expected to, into "therefore only a few people will have good ones and there won't be huge balance implications on a server-wide scale".

This should be kept in mind every time we think about introducing more potent equipment: Harsh gating to get the gear will not stop it from becoming standard issue for anyone that's serious about maxing out character potential. I have no faith whatsoever that even 70 DC and thousands of crafting points will prevent them from becoming completely standard gear, so any balance consideration on new items should start with the assumption that everyone will have them in a few months' time.

[A fly~s fart in a sandstorm]

do we actually need better weapons?
why are we walking closer and closer to high fantasy?
cant we just get a fix on those that are already there?

would however be nice to see more class related items/weapons a paladin sword helping with smite but restricts something else, a rogues dagger that helps with open locks and disable traps, a wizards club for off hand that perhaps gave few spell slots? (minor enchanted items really but yeah class/race restricted gear)

Because it's a fantasy game, maybe?

[msterswrdsmn]

Lets think of it this way. The original suggestion was a dc of 70 and several thousand crafting points?

HItting a DC of 70 reliably isn't actually terribly hard, with the changes to craft weapon/armor. I don't think you'd even need to invest all 60 of your alloted crafting points with the change to reliably hit that. Even moreso if you take the crafting gift on creation. A level 20 character will have 40 crafting points. With a crafting gift, that comes out to 50. With say, 20 ranks in both craft armor and weapons, that comes out to 70. BEFORE level 30.

So, theres that.

Thousands of required crafting points? Crafted items can be passed back and forth between players, and multiple people can contribute to the crafting of a single item. Short of coming up with some new scripts, or revising the old ones completely, this isn't going to change.

I'm not going to bother doing the math here, but having even a small group of reasonably skilled crafters passing around a single item can greatly expedite the rate at which high-legendary stuff is crafted. And once it is crafted, its pretty much going to stay in circulation until someone hits -delete_character with the item in question. It wouldn't take terribly long for a lot of legendary items to pop up. Not as quickly as artifacts did (ie: the old invisible haste-dash to the altar), but it wouldn't take as long as suggested.

I think it would be neat if crafters had the option to customize what bonuses went onto their items, as each player and character has their own needs and wants, which would result in a lot of unique items (ex: epic enchanted gear varies greatly at times).

Or, it could suffer the totem druid flaw, with everyone picking the same thing over and over. Whichever!

[kittenblackfriends]

The crafting points gained through the Craft Armor/Weapon feats and the Gift are only CP, not mitigatable points for craftskill. Meaning a DC of 70 would still require a 50% roll even if you dedicated all your points to a single craft by Lv30.

[msterswrdsmn]

Oh. Really? Nevermind then on that point.

[Lorkas]

The crafting points gained through the Craft Armor/Weapon feats and the Gift are only CP, not mitigatable points for craftskill. Meaning a DC of 70 would still require a 50% roll even if you dedicated all your points to a single craft by Lv30.

You're right about the skill points, but the gift gives actual CP to assign to crafting disciplines, so characters with the Gift of Craftsmanship could indeed reach a DC of 70 in a single craft.

[Durvayas]

Minor problem with that. Gift of craftsmanship leaves you with only 70 trade skill points to spend. 60 over the course of your PC leveling, and 10 otherwise.

IE: If you branch out at all to make crafting easier(most smiths take a point in carpentry, because wooden shield blanks and arrow shafts) you would be thereby dropping your ability to hit that DC 70 by 5% per point.

Its not a deal breaker, but it is a penalty for straying the course by even a hair.


As for what to craft. I would love to see +2 skill 'items' that can be used on crafted or enchanted armor the same way essences can.

+2 hide? "Special armor paint"
+2 move silent? "Armor lubricant"
+2 heal? "built in salve compartment"
+2 ride? "Spurs"
+2 spellcraft? "Engraved runes"
+2 discipline? "Improved padding"
+2 spot? "built in lenses"
+2 hearing "improved drilled hearing holes"

etc. etc. etc.

It'd be something for epic smiths to do that would matter, but give a small enough bonus that it won't really contribute to power creep.

[Iceborn]

In my opinion, we don't need stronger items - but we could use items with personality. Both in lore and mechanically.
I've grown to find +8 skills, +2 stats items... distateful. They are blanks, so generic that they are virtually impossible to tell apart from the +2 enhancement weapons, or +2 AC you can find in the chests and lockers.

[Hunter548]

I personally would love if there were ~craftable +8 skill + 2 stat + whateverwhatever items. Let them be creatable, let personality put into them, let them be characterizing.

[Baron Saturday]

I'd veer away from stronger items, for precisely the reasons stated (power creep, rapid proliferation) and towards more options as well, in the vein of FL's crafting system. Now, it's been a while, but I seem to recall that there were some materials that allowed easier enchanting of physical properties, and some that allowed easier enchanting of magical properties. How this distinction breaks down is pretty crucial, of course, but I think this could be a fun way to add some variety to the top-tier gear. Be nice to have options beyond the cookie-cutter load outs we have now.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I don't think we should let even more power creep in. Items are already powerful enough with the kinds of artefacts people farm for (those who have characters able to).

Maybe if they were powerful in some other way, like adding a lot of a certain skill. Huge perform/bluff bonus on some performers gown. Lore and spellcraft on a scholar's robes. That would lend more to RP situations and avoid more power-creep.

[Ork]

I think, generally, power creep is necessary. As ScurvyCur said in another post, the players on arelith have now familiarized themselves the the mechanics of the game to a point of absurdity and those that haven't, have access to the player base as a whole to get help/answers.

In order for the game to remain challenging, new and inventive, we will have to add items that add to the game in a noticable way. Having cloaks that have +4 deflection AC to piercing is so niche it won't ever be used dependably. We need +4 and +5 items or their equivalents.

Look at Adamantium. It had a level reqs of 12, but so few characters have access to that gear until late levels because of its rarity and price. We can duplicate that rarity by having specific crafters dedicate ALL their points into their craft to achieve legendary items.

All the sudden, that tailor that went 60 points in the craft has a reason to exist, and the gift of craftsmanship becomes so much more useful.

[Baron Saturday]

In order for the game to remain challenging, new and inventive, we will have to add items that add to the game in a noticable way. Having cloaks that have +4 deflection AC to piercing is so niche it won't ever be used dependably. We need +4 and +5 items or their equivalents.

I gotta tell you, I fail to see how more powerful items keep the game challenging. Or how adding another +1 to a few bits of gear is new and inventive. I don't think that anyone will argue that the +4 AC v Piercing cloaks are anything useful, but that's one end of the spectrum. What about things like the Spear of the Unicorn that I've already seen ingame? A +2 damage/ab spear with immunity to hold person (And some other stuff that I can't recall off the top of my head) has enough potential utility that someone might consider using it as an alternative to, say, a greensteel weapon.

Think along the lines of crafted weapons that ONLY give massive amounts of damage, for instance - would you sacrifice the +3 ab of masterly damask for more damage? Or armor that drops its AC bonus in exchange for another 5-10% DR.

So that's what I'd like to see. Actual, viable options that are on par with the current power levels, but specialize in different areas.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Gradually introducing more and stronger items will not necessarily keep the game more challenging.

What it will do is introduce the sense of further progress. Once you hit level 30 (Ic'ly, the 'pinnacle of power') the only sense of progress that remains in the scope of adventuring is gold and items. Gold is simply a commodity to trade for property/loot, so you're left with items meaning everything.

There are a million and one stories and plots to be had, but for PvE to remain relevant and sensible to a level 30 adventurer's life, there must (generally) be some continued sense of accomplishment for it to remain desirable for the player, although the character might find some personal objective worthwhile independently of that in the meantime.

Now... whether or not that needs to go all the way up to +5 is beyond me. Personally, I don't think allowing slightly stronger items from crafting would be awful- maybe allow crafting of +4 armors and weapons, +2 to stats/save, +3/4 skills... but make them require work between a crafter AND an enchanter, together.

So the crafter makes, say, masterwork <item here> then gives it to the enchanter, who then takes it to a basin, and gets an enhanced enchanting dialogue with extra options not available on non-masterwork items?

[innervoid]

Well that is the definition of power creep, and it wouldn't be a creep it will be a sprint.

Just making something need both a crafter and an enchanter will do little. Every high level player will then craft that item and give it to their enchanter friend, and by the end of the week many, many toons will be maxed out on this...then what is next +5 a few months later with the same argument? This would also require the DMs having to rebalance the server in the higher areas for the increase in gear (i.e. increased gear per player X number of party members) otherwise it will be less of a challenge and boring; then people who don't min/max will be at a disadvantage and urge them to start making power builds rather than rp builds.

Game already isn't too difficult with a balanced group of level ~18 with maybe a 30 mixed in can go through most of the server content, and even some level 30s able to solo anywhere on the isle.