I have a problem with rogues!

[Astral]

Seriously now, we've been over this million times. Rogues sucks. That said, they still have their cool niche in Arelith because they are a class with 8 base skill points per lvl and access to umd. You wanna make a pure rogue? You're likely gonna be one of the best spies out there but you're gonna suck in combat - that's life! With all things considered, rogue is still the most common class in arelith (even if for just 3 lvls). It almost feels like Rogue became a prestige class lol. you take few lvls from it in epic lvls. the requirements are...... nope, no requirements. Even paladins and monks qualify for this class. I find all of it amusing.. and what amuses me most is that people still complain rogues need a boost. They don't need a boost, they need to be special in something and they are not, currently. People will always complain about this class UNTILL the day this class is given a "scaling" modifier that not 60% of the pve is immnune to, in epic lvls.

[Meliboeus]

My only point was that you can make a brilliant rogue with both PVP and PVE in mind, in pretty much any style. It just probably won't have a majority of levels in rogue. Personally I don't think this matters. Because for me "rogue" is a character archetype and play style, not any specific mechanical function.

However, if the Devs did want to take action to boost pure-class rogues then perhaps they should get epic rogue feats that function in the same way (mechanically) as epic spell focuses or the Wild Mage abilities. And they should also have a scaling enchantment effect on their weapons, up to +5 at level 28.

[Astral]

My only point was that you can make a brilliant rogue with both PVP and PVE in mind, in pretty much any style. It just probably won't have a majority of levels in rogue. Personally I don't think this matters. Because for me "rogue" is a character archetype and play style, not any specific mechanical function.

However, if the Devs did want to take action to boost pure-class rogues then perhaps they should get epic rogue feats that function in the same way (mechanically) as epic spell focuses or the Wild Mage abilities. And they should also have a scaling enchantment effect on their weapons, up to +5 at level 28.

They already have some many cool things. Crippling strike, epic dodge and access to more epic skill focuses than any other class. With all the sneak/crit immunities in arelith, rogues are just not designed for combat mainly, they are utility focused and they get these ridiculous scores on so many useful skills.

[Silent Handshake]

rogues do not suck one bit its just you the players that want more than what it provides sorry..
i mainly only play rogues because they are very useful in all situations, why must everything be oh so awesome and gifting to the player why must you have all the cool sh...

[Lorkas]

It doesn't sound to me like Mr. Dorkas doesn't understand the nature of the utility vs combat ability tradeoff. If I understand him correctly, he's arguing that on Arelith specifically, we don't have a lot of systems in place that make that utility worth as much as the combat tradeoff.

I agree with that point and think there's room for development there. Furthermore, it would be nice if you couldn't get so much of the same utility as a dedicated rogue with a 3-level skilldump.

[gilescorey]

Mr. Dorkas

he he

[yellowcateyes]

The problem with the utility vs. combat trade-off argument is that many builds can obtain all the utility without sacrificing combat capacity, just by dipping Rogue and skill-dumping.

The best spies are actually Monk-heavy builds rather than Rogue-heavy builds. The innate speed boost is excellent for corner-stealthing and positioning while stealthed, which is key to minimizing detection checks and avoiding True Sight casts. Rangers are also better than Rogues at this because they leave no tracks that hint at their presence.

Similarly, any combat build that dips Rogue will still get access to all the rogue skills. Some dip as far as 10+ Rogue to get Epic Dodge and/or Crippling Strike, but there's rarely a reason to go beyond that.

The new Fighter and Barbarian mechanics reward people the more they invest levels in those two classes. It would be nice if there was a similar reason to invest heavily into Rogue.

Random Suggestion: The category-encompassing 'Sneak Attack Immunity' was a bad idea unique to 2e and 3e. Pathfinder worked around it and 4e and 5e did away with it entirely. Players in 5e are happily sneak-attacking zombies.

At 15 Rogue, you do half sneak damage against enemies normally immune to sneak attack. At 25 Rogue you ignore sneak attack immunity completely. Let's also give that to 10 Blackguard because why not.

[Meliboeus]

Random Suggestion: The category-encompassing 'Sneak Attack Immunity' was a bad idea unique to 2e and 3e. Pathfinder worked around it and 4e and 5e did away with it entirely. Players in 5e are happily sneak-attacking zombies.

At 15 Rogue, you do half sneak damage against enemies normally immune to sneak attack. At 25 Rogue you ignore sneak attack immunity completely. Let's also give that to 10 Blackguard because why not.

This is a much more elegant solution than mine.

[FoxyPigeon]

At 15 Rogue, you do half sneak damage against enemies normally immune to sneak attack. At 25 Rogue you ignore sneak attack immunity completely. Let's also give that to 10 Blackguard because why not.

That'd be really nice, especially if it also worked for invested assassins, especially since they don't even get any cool rogue bonus feats.

[Devil Dog]

As for people that hate Rogue dipping, or class dipping period, there is only 1 real good balanced way so far as i am concerned that would work well. And it works across the board really for any class dipping. Upon level, use your skill points or lose them. No more saving points for the big dips for umd, tumble, hide, ms, open lock, remove trap in epic lvls

Course i would rather keep it as is, but i believe this would make the rogue more unique again. If it WERE done, i would think it only fare that the day it was implemented, it would be for and NEW characters made from that point on. Not characters still lvl or even lvl 30 already.

[Astral]

As for people that hate Rogue dipping, or class dipping period, there is only 1 real good balanced way so far as i am concerned that would work well. And it works across the board really for any class dipping. Upon level, use your skill points or lose them. No more saving points for the big dips for umd, tumble, hide, ms, open lock, remove trap in epic lvls

Course i would rather keep it as is, but i believe this would make the rogue more unique again. If it WERE done, i would think it only fare that the day it was implemented, it would be for and NEW characters made from that point on. Not characters still lvl or even lvl 30 already.

It could very well be the end of Arelith if we go THAT hardcore. It would also give the 'veterans' (who got characters from the 'old' system) a SERIOUS edge in power over new players who don't have old character and it's likely to piss people off. It's not some minor tweak you're talking about. It's a HUGE change in how people build characters in this gaming world.

[Devil Dog]

Yep, i agree and dont like the idea. Just get tired of hearing the same old bitches and tossed out there what could come some day.

[Astral]

Yep, i agree and dont like the idea. Just get tired of hearing the same old bitches and tossed out there what could come some day.

Nahhh! People will always complaint about something. I feel like the current meta is pretty good. All classes have their strengths and weaknesses, every powerbuild has an effective counter (not including some really nasty super strong 5% characters who can take out an army by themselves, of course) and rogue, as a pure class, sucks in combat and offers a lot of social skills and utility. Everything feels in order to me..... except Word of Faith. This spell is not balanced what so ever

[Scurvy Cur]

Eh, no way that happens. If for no other reason, the dev team as a broad matter understands that that particular change would push both bard and warlock from top-tier good classes to "there's no reason to play anything else" territory.

Re: rogues, it's also understood that Rogue is currently towards the bottom of the heap in terms of overall viability. Few builds have much reason to take more than 13 levels, and there are key flaws in the class that make it hard for the class to exploit its own strengths properly, even when well
Built and played. The trick is finding a way to balance them that makes them simultaneously competitive, compellingly unique, and not unreasonably powerful, and which also does not take the shameful cop out approach of "buff chest loot/add more Rogue only doors/otherwise pin the usefulness of the class on 1-2 skill rolls over the course of a dungeon".

[gilescorey]

The trick is finding a way to balance them that makes them simultaneously competitive, compellingly unique, and not unreasonably powerful, and which also does not take the shameful cop out approach of "buff chest loot/add more Rogue only doors/otherwise pin the usefulness of the class on 1-2 skill rolls over the course of a dungeon".

This times a thousand. If a class is weak in combat, buffing their noncombat skills is Not the way to do it.
Playing a character who is less than ineffectual in combat yet required to open a door is fun for neither the people who have to bring around nearly-dead weight or the nearly-dead weight in question.

[Trunx]

-guard by itself does a lot for rogues. You're guaranteed to get sneak attacks all the time if you can find a tank, and that means you'll do the best DPS in the party, provided you're well built.

[gilescorey]

-guard by itself does a lot for rogues. You're guaranteed to get sneak attacks all the time if you can find a tank, and that means you'll do the best DPS in the party, provided you're well built.

Unless you're fighting undead, slimes, constructs, dragons, dwarven defenders, anything with ten or more levels of pale master, or elementals.

Did I miss anything?

[Urch]

One idea is, give pure rogues the ability to do extra status effects (slow, stun, silence, deafen, confusion etc) upon hit.

Only works at the same range as sneak attacks would (but still affects sneak immune peoples). They'd have a submenu like warlocks and their eldritch blast damage types.

[Scurvy Cur]

Yeah, you missed "stuff with good AC".

One of the key flaws with Rogue as a dps class is that, even well built and well played (read: they've multi'd effectively, loaded up as much AB as reasonable, and are using their full kit to qualify for sneaks), their AB relegates them to "less dps in practice than a fighter-based dps, regardless of what their theoretical paper max dps is" territory, at best, and makes them completely ineffectual against some opponents. That's usually a good sign that a class isn't mechanically where it ought to be; they're a circumstance-based class that underperforms even when it hits its circumstantial window perfectly.

Also, it's very unlikely that any buff to pure Rogue will have a meaningful impact on their viability. The class must have a discipline dump class of some sort to function at all.

[Trunx]

-guard by itself does a lot for rogues. You're guaranteed to get sneak attacks all the time if you can find a tank, and that means you'll do the best DPS in the party, provided you're well built.

Unless you're fighting undead, slimes, constructs, dragons, dwarven defenders, anything with ten or more levels of pale master, or elementals.

Did I miss anything?

Luckily you can choose which dungeon to go to if you always want to be able to sneak attack. You can level very effectively and fast and never fight anything that's immune to sneaks if you so desire.

[yellowcateyes]

More crazy idea time.

Rogue levels count for full (high) BAB when the rogue is attacking a target that is flanked or flatfooted.

Rogues will still be doing rogue things, only now they'll actually be a threat while doing rogue things.

[Scurvy Cur]

You've actually just replicated, in vacuum, both suggestions for buffing rogues that I handed the balance team a couple months ago, yellow. Gonna have to bug the group mod to add you to the discussions at this rate.

[yellowcateyes]

Great minds and all that. Otherwise, collective dementia!

Either way, rogues need love. <3

[Xantor_Stromgate]

The Conneisseur's Choice

25 Rogue / 5 Fighter

The fighter for Epic Weapon Specialization Short Sword (so you can do *some* sneak attack damage to crit immune enemies). The 25 rogue is because you are a purist and like a challenge.

Oooooooooh, you's a bad bitty, Dirty D!!!!

This is VERY close to Quick's build ...

As far as the loot goes ... I think you've just been having some bad rolls.

Which brings me to artefacts: Who cares? The luck of the die roll is involved, heavily. It gives you at least more more RP reason to brave dangerous adventures to find another. Just ask Dachlatte, the player of Adoamros Craulnober.

And stealth: *a curious artifact of unknown origin found by Dryden in ... wherever that was ... *

I know it's been made more difficult to sneak due to, what I assume, is either an auto-spot on a 20 by NPC's or an auto-fail on a 1 by PC's against and NPC. But, this can be used as and effective lure tactic!! And forces party play! *nudge-nudge, wink-wink* ... That bein' said, I would like to see it in Heroic, Paragon and Epic levels. I.E. - no auto-spots (or what-have-yous) if a level 11 character is in a 3-10 level area; no auto-spots if a level 21 character is in a 14-19 area; etc.

X

[Scurvy Cur]

That'd be the random spot/listen bonus that mobs RNG into these days. There's a script that assigns a (sometimes huge) bonus to spot listen to occasional individual npcs when they're spawned in, and was put in place to deal with the sentiment that stealthers had it "too easy" when monster detect skills were static.