I have a problem with rogues!

[Dorkas]

They get a bunch of skills and have access to lock picking, and traps which is awesome and gives them reason to be around.

Except you'll realize that 99.9% of loot on Arelith is crap, to the point that so many others and myself don't even bother with the chests anymore. In fact I've been in parties, where another member literally tells me to just leave the chests because they a complete waste of effort. On top of this people can dip 3 rogue and manage to deal with loot locks and traps equally as effective.

Someone tells me loot WAS improved at some point, is this a joke? Because when I can rob the Derlson household for sometimes 1000+ gp, with no effort or danger, but I find 3 f***ing gp in an hours long dungeon after a boss that was a giant pain in the butt, come on, who you foolin'?

But how about those artifact chests?

Similar to regular loot, if you can call it loot and not garbage. These are almost always empty, and even more common to find missing because you can just bash them. BUT OHNO DA PRECIOUS LOOT IS DESTROYED! NOOOOOOPE! YOU CAN STILL GET AN ARTIFACT. Hell, there is a good amount of dungeons where you can also just run past the boss, gonne the chest, yoink anything inside and flee. WOWIE MUCH EFFORT GLAD I INVESTED THESE SKILLS, BOYS!

Seriously, though is that an oversight or just supposed to make things fair for non lock pickers? Or what? Why are artifact chests bashable at all? If anything in the game should require you to seek out a rogue, it should be that. Not just, lemme save Jimbob my level 30 barb next to this artifact chest and log off for a few hours. Login again, rage, bash chest and leave the dungeon. Awesome and fair. Can we give the boss a 1 use key for these chests, so that way people cannot cheese them or something? ANYTHING?!

Now wait a second, rogues have access to sneaks!

Hey I aint complaining about sneaks, they're really nice, especially on us dexers who already have limited damage, you really can mess a lot of things up. Oh, except for that thing with stupid DR, and that other thing with DR, oh and all those sneak immune monsters, and also those sneak immune monsters with DR. Go str or go home.

At least they're nice in pvp.

Yeah, they're nice if you see your good buddy getting beat up and you run up and stab a bitch in the back, other wise your ab is lower, you know because you are a rogue. And oh crap! Now they're targeting you and your 50ish sneak damage became 4! That will show them! Oh wait, I'm dead already because I also have horrible hp.




Coming soon: I used to be a rogue like you, but then I became a weapon master or warlock or mage or cleric for RP and totally not because the server favors them.

I do love this server, but god damn. Please help me.

[Nitro]

And here I keep getting salty because of all the locked unbreakable doors that you have to have a rogue in the party to get past, especially in those dungeons where it's a shortcut past a really tedious area (COUGHIRONMINESCOUGH).

But I agree with the chest loot. In the low levels, they're pretty valuable as the contents provide a nice boost to your early game income, but they don't scale up even remotely as fast as you do, I've seen +1 and +2 weapons drop in level 11-16 dungeons, by which time most people will have upgraded to damask/greensteel already.

[Cuchilla]

Dwarven encantations are only found in chests, and used for crafting items. Mergo's Vine (Greater Strength), gather them, and selll them expensive. A few arrows are useful (not many). But yeah, loots are mostly for low levels. And good artefacts almost unavailable.

However, I like rogues: Because with high enough stealth, you can go to many maps you otherwise would have to fight yourself through (and die). Especially when high levelled and tired of killing the same spawns over and over again..

Removing deadly traps. Shortcut through locked doors in some dungeons.

Above all, in parties rogues are good scouts. Which makes it possible to talk tactics on dealing with hard spawns. Sneak attacks also work with arrows, when you're close enough.

[Sab1]

My rogue was often hired just for the chest on RDI or Mourne manor. She often made it known she was a master lock picker and people sought her out.

I

[Baron Saturday]

I was under the impression that bashing artifact chests was supposed to always destroy the artifact. Can someone confirm?

And I love rogues for sneaking through spawns to get to that bloody mage at the back before he Horrid Wiltings everybody. You also gotta invest significantly in either rogue or SD to get that sweet sweet epic dodge. Would I advise going PURE rogue? Well, no, but there's not many classes where I'd advise going pure in.

[FoxyPigeon]

I was under the impression that bashing artifact chests was supposed to always destroy the artifact. Can someone confirm?

I don't know if it was ever fixed, and while I don't do this anymore after I learned that artifact chests don't respawn. (Maybe that's what they meant? Cuz the chests don't respawn, thus you can't get an artifact.) You could definitely bash them and still find artifacts a few months ago. I agree that they just shouldn't be bashable; for quick grabs, as well as screwing over people who actually take the time to clear the dungeons. :/

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with Dorkas mostly. Stealth classes are just less than others. Plain and simple. Most stealth classes offer two things; UMD, and obviously, Stealth. Every single person and their dog has umd, So i'm going to disregard it for now. There is a tie in between the two- But that'll come in a minute. As for stealth, it is easily countered by Spot. Spot is available to many classes, and is Wis based; Which automatically gets any druids or clerics much higher odds. If they are a dex based character, They should have roughly 60 or so Hide/MS. In order to not be spotted, They need 20 more than the spotter's scores. A generic WM would have 53, with gear. As for a wizard, If they don't dip rogue- It's also countered by true-sight. Completely. Check mate Stealth.

I never noticed how many people actually use true seeing until i started paying attention to it... But being as there are all of; Wild mages, Weave masters, Sorcerers,Clerics, and Wizards as the most played classes on the server- which makes sense as to why it would be. Anyway, I have not (in roughly the past year) Been able to walk through a single town without someone having True-sight on. I'm serious, It's become so common for people to do it, completely casually. If -for no other reason- than to see you. It's especially bad with Weavies. It's constantly- CONSTANTLY up. They will never have it down if they don't want to. Either way; If a Wizard is planning on sitting around in front of a Tavern, Gate, Room, etc. etc. They will have.... Roughly 7-8 casts prepped? At 30 wizard levels, It will last for 3 minutes each (1 round per level,= 180 seconds). So x8... 24 minutes of true seeing. That's almost half an hour. Not to mention Stealthers can't do anything about it; They have to sit there and wait it out, or give up and go home.

And then there is invisibility. It will work the exact same as stealth, Only you can run, but can't get as close to your enemy. Available to all UMD'ers ever, Even on some potions.

Back to when I said there was a link to the two. Wizards have True Seeing, And scribe scroll. Everyone and their dog has UMD. So now literally EVERYONE has True Seeing. You could be a rogue 10 SD 20, and for all the level 10's who care, you might as well not bother sneaking to begin with.

Stealth is not supposed to be easy mode. But it's a Core function to a set of classes; A mechanic that is so easily countered by everyone, With no investment on their part, in a single round. I keep hearing class balance compared "Rock, Paper, Scissors". And well, You can have your scissors, But with no blade. That's a fairly accurate representation, Because rogues are theoretically supposed to beat casters... But the casters won't lose if they are planned for it- And they can. Quite easily. (Greater sanctuary, True Seeing, Wail of the banshee.) Warriors curb stomp them like they're a joke. Sadly- There will be no fixing to this, So i'll just drop it here before I pass bad feelings around.

[Cerk Evermoore]

People who log out beside chests and wait for server resets to log in and check it.

[FoxyPigeon]

Artifacts do not spawn at reset, but instead at any random time the server is up iirc. So, checking it after a reset could be fruitless... but also solves nothing cuz you could just log out and wait some more, check it again, rinse and repeat.

Better yet if someone rushes a dungeon after a reset and bashes it, congrats, now literally no one has the chance to find one until the next reset, that's fun, right?

[tango.icecream]

Better yet if someone rushes a dungeon after a reset and bashes it, congrats, now literally no one has the chance to find one until the next reset, that's fun, right?

I still don't understand why anyone does this :\ Seems awful...

[DM Noxt]

So, checking it after a reset could be fruitless... but also solves nothing cuz you could just log out and wait some more, check it again, rinse and repeat.

You could, if you wanted to lose all your artifacts when a DM catches you doing it.

People logging out next to artifact chests has been mentioned a few times in this thread but it's certainly not widespread, and if you suspect someone of doing it, report it.

[JediMindTrix]

I do not understand the amount of expressed butthurt I have seen over the last six months over bashed artefact chests. It's silly. Artefacts are nice, but you can kick *** and take names without them. But people have seizures (see OP's meme) over it like someone suddenly cut them off from their Benzodiazapene addiction.

Opinion: If the highlight of your day is the artefact at the end of a dungeon and it not being there at the end of the tunnel triggers you, you should either roll a new character or take a break from Arelith because it reeks of over-emotional investment or boredom.

[TotesTotem]

This might be solved if artefact chests had the following properties:
- Indestructible.
- Trap fires once, resets after cool down time of say 5 mins.
- Locked, at whatever DC is appropriate, resets after 5 mins.
- Potential for rolling bash vs lock DC, similar to quarters.
- Loot spawns at random times, as currently happens.

End result being that rogues don't lose their specialty, adventurers of other kinds can try their luck against an epic trap, and hulk smash might still get it open without ruining the fun for others. Everyone wins?

[Dorkas]

Stealth classes are just less than others. Plain and simple. Most stealth classes offer two things; UMD, and obviously, Stealth. Every single person and their dog has umd

Gosh, I totally forgot about stealth, but you covered it pretty well. Don't forget that rogues also get that special unique skill Tumble, that definitely nobody else has, right?

Don't get me wrong! Stealthing is a lot of fun, I truly feel sorry for people who invest the skill points, feats and focuses all the way to 30 only to have themselves busted by some level 7 cleric, mage or better yet a level 3 who can read a scroll. Kek. I can understand that frustration for sure.

People who log out beside chests and wait for server resets to log in and check it.

As for artifact logging, it was an example, but I'm certain people have done it. It's lame, it's cheap, but its practically the same thing this:

someone rushes a dungeon after a reset and bashes it, congrats, now literally no one has the chance to find one until the next reset, that's fun, right?

Still sounds lame and cheap to me, heck even if I wasn't a rogue. Say a reset happens, you get a few of your buds together to take on a dungeon afterwards, you go to said dungeon and BAM the chest is already bashed, you check and the server has only been up an hour already!

Artefacts are nice, but you can kick *** and take names without them.

Sure you can. (Just don't play an invested stealthier ) The problem is not necessarily artifacts, but more that artifacts are the ONLY worthwhile loot on Arelith, especially high level. Despite even the fact that you have a higher chance of winning RL lottery than even finding one.

Just like Arelith's 5% roll system, artifacts mostly reward those trying to abuse them. You log in just to rush every chest before anyone else has a chance to try? It's very selfish, but you DO have a much higher chance of getting one. Just like grinding characters to 21, just to try for that 5%! Where many others will only roll once they're truly finished with a character.

I don't dislike either of these systems really, but in terms of artifacts, there should be a way to keep others from spoiling the fun of them for everyone else.

[A fly~s fart in a sandstorm]

I made it to an artifact chest once. Solo, because i was just exploring. I was so happy to finally get one. Beat the boss, barely, used almost every heal kit and consumable i had (i was level 16 at the time), and exhausted every spell i had memorized. Opened the chest. Empty. Cue sadness and the last time i bother looking for artifacts.

[Dorkas]

To be clear, this isn't a thread about artifacts being OP. Its about areliths loot sucking @$$, which makes artifacts seem to be the only thing worth treasure hunting. Especially for those of us who like finding dat booty, it makes us cry. Improve simple stuff, even just GOLD! I mean come on guys, I can go stab this orc and get 100gp of his corpse, but I finally make it to the well guarded chest at the bottom of the dungeon, that was guarded by 500 orcs, and it's got 17gp? What da fuq?


And suuuuuuuuure, you have your dwarven incraptation, and other small things most people just use as toilet paper instead. You might need it for those 2 or 3 craftable things that no one cares about, what a find! The problem with those things is, most ppl finding it have NO USE FOR IT! Ironically the description of that says something about smithing if I recall, despite it having zero smithing recipes I think.

[Broken Hopes Shattered Dreams]

Not all artefact chests can be bashed. Some are in fact indestructible. Sometimes they're even full of pretty awesome rolled loot like a +4 warhammer with 4 massive crit, and +3 FP +4 All saves and /20 resist electric. They're out there, but they're rare as they should be. That being said the chests that can be bashed usually always are and that is a bummer.

Rogues also need some love. See OP's rage comment about monsters sneak immunity as well as everything else that's been beaten to death regarding rogues needing love.

[Meliboeus]

Personally I don't think rogues need changing. As a pure class, they are underpowered. But as every guide will tell you about NWN you shouldn't ever be a single class rogue. The key is not to confuse the rogue mindset with the rogue class.

So, what are your options? Off the top of my head...

The Fey Trickster
17 Feylock / 13 Rogue

It has plenty of Sneak (dual wield). Also Eldritch blast for sneak attack immune. And epic dodge. No Improved Invisibility but at least you still get displacement.

The Gnomish Inventor
21 Wizard / 9 Rogue (or 4 Rogue and 5 SD)

All the skills. Making golems. Full enchantment focus. Popping out of shadows and casting Weird. Nasty. Could even hit if you have True Strike.

The Mundane
19 Rogue / 6 Monk / 5 Fighter

Has all the attacks. Epic Weapon Specialisation Kama. And more skills than you can shake a stick at.

The Quite Frankly Overpowered Killing Machine

21 Cleric / 9 Rogue

Because clerics are ridiculous. And then make it a rogue. Trickery and animal domain. For Cat's Grace and THIRD LEVEL True Seeing. Not to mention the Ancient Elementals.

The Conneisseur's Choice

25 Rogue / 5 Fighter

The fighter for Epic Weapon Specialisation Short Sword (so you can do *some* sneak attack damage to crit immune enemies). The 25 rogue is because you are a purist and like a challenge.

The Pirate

12 Bard / 4 Paladin OR Blackguard / 14 Rogue

A high-CHA spell saving combat rogue. Take Ultravision and Darkness for added hilarity.

[gilescorey]

21 Cleric / 9 Rogue

Because clerics are ridiculous. And then make it a rogue. Trickery and animal domain. For Cat's Grace and THIRD LEVEL True Seeing. Not to mention the Ancient Elementals.

[Rodent]

If we're talking about rogue-heavy builds then I can cheerfully recommend the 13rogue/10fighter/7WM setup. You get a LOT of the bonuses and fun stuff associated with rogues (sneak attack,skills, epic dodge) and you still bring the hefty damage of a WM, and get minor fighter bonuses along the way too. Your saves are somewhat on the lower side, but you can buttress that a bit with items and stat boosts from gear. There's also Rogue/Monk/Fighter builds with quarterstaves involved that are a lot of a fun.

Rogues by themselves are underwhelming. You can mix them with other things for great effect.

[SilverCrow]

Rogue/ftr can get 500 hp and 55~ ac w/ shield/typical wand buffs/expertise. Dunno what your end hp is, but 500 hp on a rogue isn't low. :b

[JediMindTrix]

IDK who Meliboeus is but they've struck of comedy gold.

[Cortex]

is seriously nobody gonna point out the OPs name

[Stath]

He's angry about Rogues.

[Astral]

21 Cleric / 9 Rogue

Because clerics are ridiculous. And then make it a rogue. Trickery and animal domain. For Cat's Grace and THIRD LEVEL True Seeing. Not to mention the Ancient Elementals.

*cough* Quarter locksmith *cough*