Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

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Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by LIonGraphiK » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:07 pm

Which class would you prefer to, or have played? Wizard or Sorcerer?

This is not designed to be an argumentative discussion as to which is better as this has most likely been a moot point for many years. What I am curious about is why people have chosen one class over the other. Were they RP reasons? Did one class appeal more because of feat selection or skill selection? Feel free to share your thoughts, we're all friends here! ;)
by Irongron » 08 Dec 2018 20:41
I do not mind people easily being able to escape PvP situations where they are clearly outmatched.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Arienette » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:24 pm

RP reasons are a real thing.

But mechanically the huge advantage a wizard has is feats and skills. I have played both classes and my impressions are as follows.

If you want to be able to yoink, teleport, make scrolls, make wands, read high lvl cleric scrolls, disguise yourself, have a great Search schore, cast extended, maximized, empowered spells, cast +7 zoo buffs, ward against scrying, and send ghostly images, and cast every wizard spell; wizard is the way to go.

A sorcerer can only do some of these things. But the things it can do, it can do as well, or better, or more often than a wizard can. Limited skill points and limited feats and limited spells. Sorcs are all about doing big things within the limits of the class.

I like both classes. There some things a sorc is just plain better at! But wizards are flexible as hell. A lvl 30 wizard isnt a tool bag, its an entire tool chest!

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Dalenger » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Arienette hits it on the head. Debating the strengths of wizard vs sorc in PvP & PvE, sorc is arguably better... but at the end of the day, it really comes down to the skill of the player, the compliment of the party, and how much each gets to prep. Also, there's no spellsword sorc, which is a big missed opportunity. However, when it comes to quality of life, wizard is almost always better. The number of feats and skills they get means that they will get all sorts of toys to play with that a sorc could only dream of. While sorc can cast more per day, they have to give up feats to be able to scribe or cast wands... so if they want metamagic feats or focuses, they'll have to start giving up crafting feats. A wiz with a backpack full of scrolls and wands will be able to keep casting a lot longer than a sorc.

At the end of the day, wizards are way more versatile and most people will probably say that wizards are more fun. However, both can be perfectly viable and there are certainly scenarios where a sorcerer will reign supreme. Play whichever you want to play.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Bunny » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:17 pm

My original was a warrior to cleave then sorcerer.

In arelith, i have spellswords.

If i could make a true flame build work, id have that but even with a build it seems ineffective for dps.

Unfortunately nwn drives a narrow meta that requires an ever present dm to work around.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Astral » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:20 pm

What I like about Wizards is the amount of things I can do... in general. pick three, hells why not four epic spell focuses and meta-magic. Intelligence is a very good stat to have a lot of. Languages, lore, skill points. The biggest difference better the two is mostly that the wizard brings a lot more utility and a sorcerer is more of a cannon.

What I like about Sorcerers is that they are focused on fewer schools in most cases, but have more spells/day and spontaneous, which I prefer and feel more comfortable playing. Wizards can learn all mage spells. I'm currently not the player to actually make use of all of that anyway. As a sorcerer I can switch some spells every lvl and experiment until I get a picture of what I need and that's quite ideal.

For me its Sorcerer.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Wuthering » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:49 pm

I think the special goodies for epic spell focuses, the ability to skilldump (high int= tons and tons of skill points) and the ability to rest frequently make wizard generally a better experience on arelith.

Sorcerers are good on other PWs where resting is restricted so every spell matters. They're also good in spontaneous DM run campaigns where you never know what happens next so flexibility matters. On Arelith and most other PWs though 98% of the time you're repeating content and know exactly what spells you are going to need.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:51 pm

Sorcs are better for PvP, but wizards have a lot more utility and will probably be more fun to play.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:22 am

Wuthering wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:49 pm
I think the special goodies for epic spell focuses, the ability to skilldump (high int= tons and tons of skill points) and the ability to rest frequently make wizard generally a better experience on arelith.

Sorcerers are good on other PWs where resting is restricted so every spell matters. They're also good in spontaneous DM run campaigns where you never know what happens next so flexibility matters. On Arelith and most other PWs though 98% of the time you're repeating content and know exactly what spells you are going to need.
This sums up my feelings quite nicely. I make an exception for true flame sorcerers, though- in terms of utility, a true flame has zero, but their ability to pump out damage of all types for each fight in PvE and PvP gives them a level of sustain no other caster has besides a warlock- and people don't try to shank them for using their powers. With the maximize feat being vital to a true flame's build, even running out of spell components doesn't really end your usefulness to the party (max C.Lightning, missile storm, firebrand, and ball lightning will still cover all your full-screen needs, party-friendly), in PvP or PvE. Just make sure you carry lots of haste potions (or buddy up to someone that will cast it for you).
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Skarain » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:54 am

I play a Sorcerer over a Wizard for RP reasons. Mine is a Kobold, and Dragon Blood runs in their veins. Sorcery is their birthright.

Have I felt jealous over all the free feats that a Wizard gets? Sure. Their "free" skill points? Yeah that too.

I have had to take 18 INT, 14 CON and 7 STR to get access to enough skill points to include Stealth + more in my characters toolkit. Git gud would consider that suboptimal and i would not blame them, with a mighty 378HP or so at +12 CON at lvl 30.

And "waste" a feat for Scribe Scroll, something Wizards get for free.

I still enjoy playing a Sorcerer immensely. Socrerers can counterspell for considerably longer than Wizards, so i have built mine as a wizard hunter or anti-caster of sorts. While a Wizard will cast a mass haste in preparation of a fight, as Sorcerer I can just keep recasting it non-stop for 71 minutes straight. Feel like dropping 8x Gate summons in a row after one-another? A Sorcerer can do that. Even if I can not afford ESF Trans, i can still Empower animal buffs and net a 6-7 stat increase with a 4th level slot that isnt too impactful for other things anyways. Oh yeah and my team needs to do something stealthy? I have 10x 3rd tier spell slots or so, so entire team gets Extended Invisibility cast twice, and twice yet more.

A sorcerers charm for me is the fact that your "endurance" is considerably higher, and have flexibility in what spells you are going to use. If your summon or team mate dies, you will still have slots to spare to buff them again.

Another RP related charm is in the fact that a Wizard can be disarmed. They are useless without their spellbook, and their batman gadget belt carrying their scrolls, wands, potions and spell component. A sorcerer doesnt care. They are a living weapon. Their power comes from within and may never be stripped of it.

Also, I have great deal of fun in my RP to call most Wizards thieves, who stole the secrets of magic from Dragons. Emoting out lightning arching through your hair or your eyes changing colour based on your mood, or other manifestations of sorcerous might is also a nifty RP thing tied specifically to sorcerers and the way of magic.

A Wizard will build a Tower and impact the world in where they set their focus upon.

A Sorcerer -is- the tower and their very presence impacts the world around them.

Lots of ways of making playing a Sorcerer cool and fun ;) , even if Wizard just happens to be "better" due to their ability to prepare and specialize wider.

Thats my reasons why I play and prefer a Sorcerer. (plus, i already had one wizard apprentice char who grew into full fledged powerful wizard through RP, and i want some variety, so i'll skip the scholarly pursuits this time and play someone who is already locked and loaded with great potential, only waiting to be unleashed)

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:18 am

In my opinion, Wizard versatility beats out Sorcerer's strong dominance in specialization. I am the kind of person who would run a Wizard with 4 Epic Spell Focuses just for the cool abilities you get from them.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by -XXX- » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:42 pm

I think that this is first and foremost a matter of RP preference:

Would you rather play as a Stephen or a Wanda?

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Anomandaris » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:35 pm

I think the server heavily skews towards Wizards. Before all the sweet goodies from ESF abilities, it was more comparable, but with the feat starvation by comparison that hurts. The classes were fairly balanced as is, but Arelith has imbalanced them significantly. It's not just the ESF ability but the boosts to DC's or other hard power improvements from the spell foci's (summon strength etc).

As someone else said, the Int based caster also gets more skillpoints which w/ are hugely important for discipline, disguise and other goodies that do translate into versatility in RP & other ways. When cross classing this becomes a big factor.

I'd like to see sorcerers get a bump somehow, either with free metamagic feat on class selection, a boost in skill pts per lvl or something else to balance them out. As it is now people seem to take them for RP purposes which is why you see so many Wizards running around. Being able to take Spellsword would be great too (I'm not sure why the bookworm is able to use a sword and the natural savant can't).

Sorc used to be my favorite class on another server because of the flexibility due to metamagic. Dueling wizards you could crush them by wearing down their spells and counterspelling them into oblivion or simply adapting to their strategy. You a necromancer? Ok I have 15 shadowshields and you probably don't have enough dispels to get around that.... This is less of a factor on Arelith due to several factors and the only time a Wizard is really kicking themselves in PvP vs a sorc is if they have super optimized their spellbook for PvE of a specific dungeon and get caught out in a PvP interaction.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:01 am

Jordenk wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:35 pm
I think the server heavily skews towards Wizards. Before all the sweet goodies from ESF abilities, it was more comparable, but with the feat starvation by comparison that hurts. The classes were fairly balanced as is, but Arelith has imbalanced them significantly. It's not just the ESF ability but the boosts to DC's or other hard power improvements from the spell foci's (summon strength etc).

As someone else said, the Int based caster also gets more skillpoints which w/ are hugely important for discipline, disguise and other goodies that do translate into versatility in RP & other ways. When cross classing this becomes a big factor.

I'd like to see sorcerers get a bump somehow, either with free metamagic feat on class selection, a boost in skill pts per lvl or something else to balance them out. As it is now people seem to take them for RP purposes which is why you see so many Wizards running around. Being able to take Spellsword would be great too (I'm not sure why the bookworm is able to use a sword and the natural savant can't).

Sorc used to be my favorite class on another server because of the flexibility due to metamagic. Dueling wizards you could crush them by wearing down their spells and counterspelling them into oblivion or simply adapting to their strategy. You a necromancer? Ok I have 15 shadowshields and you probably don't have enough dispels to get around that.... This is less of a factor on Arelith due to several factors and the only time a Wizard is really kicking themselves in PvP vs a sorc is if they have super optimized their spellbook for PvE of a specific dungeon and get caught out in a PvP interaction.
Sorcs do not need any sort of boost. They are the best pvp class in the game and if anything need a nerf. (specifically, timestop should be removed from wizards and sorcs)

The reason more people play wizards is to have more options in PvE and for the cool ESF abilities. That does not make sorc inferior, simply less popular. (although i will agree that sorcs are slightly inferior in PvE)

Additionally, adding a spellsword option for sorcerers would allow for a horribly broken sorcerer/blackguard spellsword build, and therefore should not be done unless the implementation is dramatically different from a wizard spellsword.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Anomandaris » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:24 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:01 am
Jordenk wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:35 pm
I think the server heavily skews towards Wizards. Before all the sweet goodies from ESF abilities, it was more comparable, but with the feat starvation by comparison that hurts. The classes were fairly balanced as is, but Arelith has imbalanced them significantly. It's not just the ESF ability but the boosts to DC's or other hard power improvements from the spell foci's (summon strength etc).

As someone else said, the Int based caster also gets more skillpoints which w/ are hugely important for discipline, disguise and other goodies that do translate into versatility in RP & other ways. When cross classing this becomes a big factor.

I'd like to see sorcerers get a bump somehow, either with free metamagic feat on class selection, a boost in skill pts per lvl or something else to balance them out. As it is now people seem to take them for RP purposes which is why you see so many Wizards running around. Being able to take Spellsword would be great too (I'm not sure why the bookworm is able to use a sword and the natural savant can't).

Sorc used to be my favorite class on another server because of the flexibility due to metamagic. Dueling wizards you could crush them by wearing down their spells and counterspelling them into oblivion or simply adapting to their strategy. You a necromancer? Ok I have 15 shadowshields and you probably don't have enough dispels to get around that.... This is less of a factor on Arelith due to several factors and the only time a Wizard is really kicking themselves in PvP vs a sorc is if they have super optimized their spellbook for PvE of a specific dungeon and get caught out in a PvP interaction.
Sorcs do not need any sort of boost. They are the best pvp class in the game and if anything need a nerf. (specifically, timestop should be removed from wizards and sorcs)

The reason more people play wizards is to have more options in PvE and for the cool ESF abilities. That does not make sorc inferior, simply less popular. (although i will agree that sorcs are slightly inferior in PvE)

Additionally, adding a spellsword option for sorcerers would allow for a horribly broken sorcerer/blackguard spellsword build, and therefore should not be done unless the implementation is dramatically different from a wizard spellsword.
I'd say versus a Wizard yes, kind of a hard counter. Versus other classes not so much as they fight isn't going to drain the whole spellbook typically. I rarely run out of spells as a Wizard in PvP except versus a mage where you're throwing dispels and getting dispelled, reapplying wards etc.

A lot of PvP doesn't last long enough to favor the sorc staying power or versatility because that versatility is built into the Wizard's spellbook if they are smart. I think there are cookie options for sorc that would make the class more balanced "across the board" without a massive boost to hard power, which I agree isn't super necessary.

I think the feat disparity and the nature of Arelith's custom spell foci feats does make a big difference though, even in PvP. Certainly in build versatility.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:37 am

1v1 vs most other classes yes they are about the same, but when you start getting into 2v1 or 3v1 sorcs will majorly outperform a wizard, and 1v1 a wizard or sorc should beat any other class right now.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:03 pm

One of the most potent & Common - combinations regarding Sorcerer is when they are cross-classed with Blackguard or Paladin.

It is so powerful that characters with this class combination can easily nullify All Save-Based Spells and Effects in the game. This synergy, coupled with easily available +universal saves on items, is not good for long term balance in Arelith, especially regarding any spells and effects that rely on saves to succeed.

Ignoring all other benefits granted to Sorcerer, when combined with paladin or blackguard, it is the superior class in PvP engagements. It is difficult to look at anything else, such as comparing a sorcerers' ability to cast from a pool of spell slots, additional spells per day, or lack of need to find new spells - and compare them to wizard benefits, while this synergy still exists.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:56 pm

Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:03 pm
One of the most potent & Common - combinations regarding Sorcerer is when they are cross-classed with Blackguard or Paladin.

It is so powerful that characters with this class combination can easily nullify All Save-Based Spells and Effects in the game. This synergy, coupled with easily available +universal saves on items, is not good for long term balance in Arelith, especially regarding any spells and effects that rely on saves to succeed.

Ignoring all other benefits granted to Sorcerer, when combined with paladin or blackguard, it is the superior class in PvP engagements. It is difficult to look at anything else, such as comparing a sorcerers' ability to cast from a pool of spell slots, additional spells per day, or lack of need to find new spells - and compare them to wizard benefits, while this synergy still exists.
I agree with this entire sentiment in terms of overall assessment, as I am hugely struggling with the desire at present to take 3 paladin levels on my sorcerer and grab still spell; but I am committed to that sweet, sweet 30d8 meteor swarm damage while piercing all SR, because vanity and high numbers.

However, I don't think the class combination is inherently wrong, anymore than I think it's wrong for a fighter with 4APR and IKD to dip rogue for sneak damage on all subsequent attacks in their flurry after an IKD and UMD.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:50 am

Yes. 27 Sorcerer / 3 Blackguard is what I was referring to when I said sorcerer is the best pvp class in the game, although even without that dip they're an extremely powerful class.

Aelryn, not really related, but the rogue dip isn't really used for 2d6 sneak attack damage. It's for tumble, UMD, and evasion.
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by snobby-princess » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:51 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:56 pm
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:03 pm
One of the most potent & Common - combinations regarding Sorcerer is when they are cross-classed with Blackguard or Paladin.

It is so powerful that characters with this class combination can easily nullify All Save-Based Spells and Effects in the game. This synergy, coupled with easily available +universal saves on items, is not good for long term balance in Arelith, especially regarding any spells and effects that rely on saves to succeed.

Ignoring all other benefits granted to Sorcerer, when combined with paladin or blackguard, it is the superior class in PvP engagements. It is difficult to look at anything else, such as comparing a sorcerers' ability to cast from a pool of spell slots, additional spells per day, or lack of need to find new spells - and compare them to wizard benefits, while this synergy still exists.
I agree with this entire sentiment in terms of overall assessment, as I am hugely struggling with the desire at present to take 3 paladin levels on my sorcerer and grab still spell; but I am committed to that sweet, sweet 30d8 meteor swarm damage while piercing all SR, because vanity and high numbers.

However, I don't think the class combination is inherently wrong, anymore than I think it's wrong for a fighter with 4APR and IKD to dip rogue for sneak damage on all subsequent attacks in their flurry after an IKD and UMD.
I agree with this entire sentiment in terms of overall assessment, as I am hugely struggling with the desire at present to take 3 paladin levels on my sorcerer and grab still spell; but I am committed to that sweet, sweet 30d8 meteor swarm damage while piercing all SR, because vanity and high numbers.

Sorry, but what is meant by this? Are you saying that going straight 30 sorc grants you something that 27 Sorc does not? Sorry for my confusion.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Skarain » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:00 pm

snobby-princess wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:51 pm
I agree with this entire sentiment in terms of overall assessment, as I am hugely struggling with the desire at present to take 3 paladin levels on my sorcerer and grab still spell; but I am committed to that sweet, sweet 30d8 meteor swarm damage while piercing all SR, because vanity and high numbers.
Sorry, but what is meant by this? Are you saying that going straight 30 sorc grants you something that 27 Sorc does not? Sorry for my confusion.

Thank you.
I can answer that.

From Arelith Specific Changes:
*Meteor Swarm:Damage increased to d8, max die increased to 30d8 at caster level 30. Does not affect allies.
And this is the base spell.
Meteor Swarm

Spell level: sorcerer/wizard 9
Innate level: 9
School: evocation
Descriptor: fire
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: personal
Area of effect: colossal (10 meter radius)
Duration: instant
Save: reflex 1/2
Spell resistance: yes

Description: The spell causes everything within the area of effect to be pummeled by incoming meteors. All those caught in the destruction take 20d6 points of [fire] damage. All creatures within 5 6.6 feet of the caster are protected from the spell's effect.
So, basically:

A 27 level Caster casting Meteor Swarm deals 20d8 Fire damage.
A level 30 Caster (pure caster, 30 Sorcerer or Wizard) casting Meteor Swarm deals 30d8 Fire Damage.

Also since your Caster Level is higher than one who takes a 27 Dip, you have higher chance to penetrate Spell Resistance that some Races and Spells grant. A level 30 Drow/Svirfneblin for example has 32 Spell Resistance, and Monks have relatively high SR aswell.

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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:07 am

Skarain wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:00 pm
...
So, basically:

A 27 level Caster casting Meteor Swarm deals 20d8 Fire damage.
A level 30 Caster (pure caster, 30 Sorcerer or Wizard) casting Meteor Swarm deals 30d8 Fire Damage.
Snipping mine- you and I are reading this differently - I'm reading this as the cap was raised to continue scaling all the way to 30d8, so that a level 27 sorcerer would be doing 27d8 damage (to make it a more competitive alternative to an empowered delayed blast fireball, or better yet a maximized missile storm, which doesn't cost components). I'll burn a bag of spell components and see if I can get a swarm that does more than 160 damage out of it and let you know what I turn up if a Dev doesn't wander across and answer first.
Also since your Caster Level is higher than one who takes a 27 Dip, you have higher chance to penetrate Spell Resistance that some Races and Spells grant. A level 30 Drow/Svirfneblin for example has 32 Spell Resistance, and Monks have relatively high SR aswell.
Yep! CL 30 + Spell Focus = ignore all racial SR and roll 55/45 your favor vs. a 30cleric's SR spell... or a monk who spends five of his six epic feats on improved SR. Looking in my vault, it's not really in my best interest to point that last one out, but... I feel pretty sad for monks when I think that it takes them 5 epic feats to break even with a level 6 cleric spell. :(
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Re: Wizard or Sorcerer. What do you/would prefer to play and why?

Post by Skarain » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:56 am

Hmmh.... You 'may' be right. One could always test it on the PGCC I suppose. I don't really play Evokers so I wouldn't know for sure.

It is one damage dice more at the very least and Spell Resistance penetration chances are higher, level 30 caster vs. 27 caster.

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