Buffless wonder

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KeldonDonovans
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Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:34 pm

I see a lot of builds out there that shout out some massive numbers (AC over 9000!) and, upon further inspection, I realized that the stars have to align perfectly in order for those extreme numbers to line up perfectly (either spend tens of thousands in wands, get lucky with loot, or happen to have a very diverse party that can give you buffs from a variety of different classes)

That got me thinking. What is the most survivable build-without relying on buffs? Attack-style can be melee, ranged, or even magic in nature. Ideally it would be able to put out some damage as well, but the main idea is that I can rest, wake up, and get to fighting without having to drink any potions, prepare any wards, or get others to toss wards on me. Even if the end product includes classes that open up the ability to self ward, that defeats the purpose of the build. The idea is to have ~none~. (of course, it can get better if warded, but I'm looking for the best without warding)

Let me know what you think!

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by ZombieDuck » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:49 pm

The new Earthkin Defender(Dwarven Defender) is pretty ideal for this.

19 ED can be combined with lot of things, but it's high DR(Combined with Epic DR feats), Mounting Resistance(Regenation) and the fact that you only need focus on Str/Con makes gearing easy.

Arelith Defensive Stance allows you to move too and has low CD of 30s even if you need to cancel it.

Possible builds for this would be:
6 Fighter/5 WM/19 ED
6 Fighter/5 Cavalier(Bonus feats, +6 vs Fear and a horse!)/19 ED
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Ork » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:19 pm

A warded character is better than an unwarded character, and no build is immune to this fact. If you're looking for something that's combat ready at the drop of a dime, you want to look at weaponmaster builds. They preform well without a terribly long buff dance.

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:29 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:19 pm
A warded character is better than an unwarded character, and no build is immune to this fact. If you're looking for something that's combat ready at the drop of a dime, you want to look at weaponmaster builds. They preform well without a terribly long buff dance.
I think I covered that. The idea isn't to make a character that is stronger than warded characters, it is to make a character that can go about their day without the necessity of warding. Obviously if they encounter some PvP with a warded character, they will likely get squished without getting some wards of their own, but the idea is a build that stands on its own without wards.

Let me explain it this way... Say we rate character's full effectiveness on a scale of 1-10. There are a lot of builds out there that, when built perfectly, and they take a few minutes to ward, are a 10, but without all the wards, they might only be a 7. I'm looking for something that's a 8 without wards, even if that means wards will only get them to 9 because they aren't optimized to work with them, if that makes sense.
ZombieDuck wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:49 pm
The new Earthkin Defender(Dwarven Defender) is pretty ideal for this.

19 ED can be combined with lot of things, but it's high DR(Combined with Epic DR feats), Mounting Resistance(Regenation) and the fact that you only need focus on Str/Con makes gearing easy.

Arelith Defensive Stance allows you to move too and has low CD of 30s even if you need to cancel it.

Possible builds for this would be:
6 Fighter/5 WM/19 ED
6 Fighter/5 Cavalier(Bonus feats, +6 vs Fear and a horse!)/19 ED
Intriguing... I have absolutely no experience in Earthkin Defender. Just looked the page up on the wiki, and it seems... like something. I'm gathering, in part from what I see, and in part because of the "Defender" in the title, that there is no real offensive capability to it, making it the equivalent to a minmaxed svirf monk? (Can't hit me and hurt me, but if/when I hit you it'll do four damage max) making this an excellent support character, unless I'm misreading? Which leads me to an important question, is something like 11 Bard/19 ED viable? (with the last bard level late game for skill dump) Because a lot of these boosts/penalties seem like they would synergize well with bard song and curse song. Or even warlock instead of bard, giving you access to eldritch blast as a means of attack that doesn't rely on a pile of feats to improve? Assuming neither of those work, and I should go with the two possible builds you provided, what kinds of feats and stats should I be looking for?

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by ZombieDuck » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:53 pm

I don't think Bard synergizes that well with ED, but everything's atleast worth trying on the test server.

While the name does mention 'Defender', it's still a full BA(Base Attack) class and when combined with classes like Fighter/WM/Cavalier and high Str(Even easier since you only need 19 Con for Epic DR feats now) it manages to reach high AB and decent dmg.

With the two builds I mentioned the WM has additional crit multiplier and 1 more AB, but reguires heavy feat investment while the Cavalier only requires Mounted Combat and 8 Ride while giving 3 bonus feats and +6 vs Fear(Will saves being typical weak point of simpler melee builds).

The best race for this would be Duergar becouse of their +2 Str/Con, immunity to Poison/Paralysis and invisibility/day at only +1 Ecl, meaning you can still take a starting gift for another +2 Stat boost.
Other 'Earthkin' races are ok aswell since Areliths starting gifts even out the differences between subraces and normal races by quite bit.

The weakest point of ED is typically not the low offensive ability, but low AC, which doesn't matter too much with the high DR/HP/Temp HP(From Defensive Stance)/Regenation(<--) keeping you alive.

Dwarf/Duergars also have access to the Dwarven Waraxe(+4, Keen Dwarven Waraxe) which doesn't penetrate Stoneskin, but for all else works nicely. The same weapon focus feats also apply to longswords(One-handed edged), making it easy to use the dragonslayer longsword(+6 vs dragons) among other longswords, scimitars, battleaxes, dwarven waraxes you might find useful while leveling.

Oh, EDs also get Evasion now, meaning if you can pump your reflex saves high enought you can just negate a lot of spell and trap dmg.

So there's some info about the class and the combos mentioned. WMs high crits are nice but the class doesn't cover for any of the weaknesses of Fighter/ED and just pumps up dmg. Cavalier is a nice class becouse of the extra feats and fear saves, the horse can count as a bonus(Also you don't need to pump points in to ride after the initial 8 since one of Cavaliers class features pumps the skill up).

If you have any classes or playstyles you were thinking of combining with it, or just some totally different class combo in mind, feel free to ask.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Bunnysmack » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm

Since I don't see it explicitly listed yet, I'll just throw in "shotgun barbarian" as an option. I have a few friends that play it and they both have a lot of good things to say about it. The two more popular variants I know of are Barb/Fight/WM/, or Barb/Fight/Ro (last dip could feasibly instead be bard for this latter option).

Your main class abilities are all tied to your recharging 0 casting time rage. If you count rage as a deal breaker for this consideration, then neverminded, but I figured your main issue was length of wind-up, and since rage is instant, this has no wind-up.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:28 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm
Since I don't see it explicitly listed yet, I'll just throw in "shotgun barbarian" as an option. I have a few friends that play it and they both have a lot of good things to say about it. The two more popular variants I know of are Barb/Fight/WM/, or Barb/Fight/Ro (last dip could feasibly instead be bard for this latter option).

Your main class abilities are all tied to your recharging 0 casting time rage. If you count rage as a deal breaker for this consideration, then neverminded, but I figured your main issue was length of wind-up, and since rage is instant, this has no wind-up.
I should point out that I am very unversed in character building. I recognize certain synergies, sure (like monk benefits from wisdom, and so does cleric, hey maybe they'd work together!) but I don't have the grasp that some of you guys demonstrate, and because of that, I don't know what a lot of these builds even are. No idea what a "Shotgun barbarian" is. Also, I have no idea what "class abilities are all tied to your recharging 0 casting time rage" means. What abilities? What do you mean recharging casting time? I understand the concept of "Barb/Fighter/WM" hitting things hard, but I'm not sure as far as survivability goes how something like that would work.
ZombieDuck wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:53 pm
If you have any classes or playstyles you were thinking of combining with it, or just some totally different class combo in mind, feel free to ask.
Oh now you gone done did it, lol.

So I'm taking it, when it comes to gearing, due to the already low AC issues, I should focus on more damage reduction enhancements rather then gunning for mediocre AC? Like enchant armor for % damage reduction of piercing/bludging/slashing instead of going for +ac?

I'm also curious how the class would synergize with monk, or even palemaster (Immune to crits coupled with damage reduction and regen sounds rather potent indeed!) And I'm assuming if I took Barbarian (tribesman) that my tribal companions would have the same passives, but probably not really activate any of the group buff things, or if they did, they presumably wouldn't stack with your own? (So if me and all my tribesman use debilitating strike on the same target, if such a thing is even possible, would the target receive the penalty just once, or once for each?)

Also, you mentioned Cavalier, but from what I've read, mounts aren't really a UD thing. Does that mean taking that route would put me on the surface?

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Bunnysmack » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:41 pm

To clarify what I mean, first the term "shotgun barbarian" means that it's a build designed to go from 0 to murder in no seconds flat. Like pulling out a sawed off shotgun from behind the bar and pulling the trigger. No wait time to aim, just shoot (or this this case, smash).

It has no AC to speak of, pretty much none of the higher barbarian builds do, but it does have a lot of health, and some damage reduction. With the fighter/rogue variant, I could even see you being able to buy up epic damage reduction, so your endgame passive DR would be something close to 11 or 12 if my estimates are correct. With that much HP, shaving off 12 damage per hit you take is quite a lot of extra survivability, added to which: you have a LOT of damage, so the idea is you have enough HP to keep going for a while, and you kill the enemy before they kill you.

Rage in Arelith has no casting time, and rather than uses per day, it has unlimited uses but there is a cooldown time between the end of the rage duration, and the time you can activate rage once more.

For more details on all the changes Arelith made to barbarians, look this page over: http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Barbarian
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by ZombieDuck » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:55 pm

Here's some more detailed info on the 6 Fighter/5 Cavalier/19 ED

For stats I started with:
(Duergar)
Str 18((+2 Starting gift(All leveling stat boost to this, but 1))
Dex 9
Con 19(+1 from leveling)
Int 14
Wisdom 8
Cha 4

Str is ofcourse for AB/Dmg
Dex could be 12 if you never want to buff it, but I left it at 9 becouse it's easy to buff it to 12 with a potion and AC is not the main point of the build anyway.
Con 19 is needed for Epic DR feats, this should be evened out to 20 since you only gain benefits from even numbered stats.
Int 14 is for extra skill points and feats such as expertise/Imp KD
Wisdom/Cha are not really needed for anything in this build so they're left low.

Pre-epic feats:
Mounted-Combat(Needed for Cavalier and needs to be taken before 7th level)
Toughness(Needed for ED)
Luck of Heroes(Can only be taken at first level. Saves are something of a weak spot of the build so grapping a lot of saves feats is nice, but not a must)
Great Fort
Lighting Reflexes
Iron Will
Weapon Focus(Can be taken as Cav bonus feat)
Weapon Specilization(Can only be taken at 4th or 6th Fighter level in this build and not a must, but 2 dmg is nice)
Improved Critical(Can be taken as Cav Bonus Feat)
Blind-Fight(Can be taken as Cav bonus feat)
Knockdown(Can be taken as Cav bonus feat(Not a must, but handy))
Expertise/Imp. Expertise(Can be taken as Cav bonus feat(Not a must, but can raise your AC to decent levels making you harder to hit while still having being able to take lot of dmg when you do get hit. Especially good when using -guard))

Epic Feats:(You should take 5th Cav feat at epics to push the last bonus feat to epics)
Epic DR 1/2/3(Can be taken as Cav bonus feat)
Epic Weapon Focus(Can be taken as Cav bonus feat)
Epic Reflexes(Just something to boost reflex high enought to take advantage of the Evasion feat from ED, but not a must)

ED also gets Armor Skin for free at 15th level, so no need to worry about picking that. The Epic Reflex is pretty much the only optional feat here and could be swapped for something like Epic Will or Epic Skill Focus.

For gearing I just went with enchanted stuff, adding enought Str/Con to hit +12 with potions, but with the concept in mind you might want to ignore skill points/saves from gear in favour of more Str/Con.
I used the Adventurer Heavy Armor for +4 Reflex to once again help Evasion work and Sergeants Cloak for Str/Con and Saves vs. Fear, but that's already usually found on melee Str builds.
The important bit of gearing is to try hit as much as Dmg Immunity to Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeon, special items for these are: Dwarven Rune Wall large shield and Elven Chain armor, but Adamantine stuff works just fine too.

For skills I just went with Concentration(33), Discipline(33), Spellcraft(16), Tumble(15), Ride(8) and Lore(3+2 from int mod).
The build doesn't too many skillpoints to spare even with 14 Int, but the important ones here are 8 Ride for Cavalier, 3 Lore combined with 2 int mod for 5 is a cheap investment and should help a bit with identtifying items which can be combined with +5 lore rings, 33 Discipline since you will be getting hit a lot and it'll be important not to get KDed or any other negative effects everytime you do(Also geared for this), 16 Spellcraft from cross-classing the skill for those +1 vs spell saves every 5 Spellcraft(Also geared for this) since getting this builds saves up is bit of a chore, 15 Tumble from cross-classing to get 3 AC becouse it's a cheap way to get AC, 33 Concentration is just there to block taunt, but could be switched to Heal/Lore if need be.

I did not spend any points on heal on this build becouse of the regenation/temp hp ability of ED. All healing potions have also been buffed in Arelith compared to standard NWN, so those should keep you alive.

I'll also look more in to other class-combos but here's more detailed version of one build.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by ZombieDuck » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm

I do not think Barbarian Tribesman get any feats or abilities from other classes, so combining high levels of ED with Tribesman barbarians would probably just result in weak tribesman, since they level and grow stronger with barbarian levels.

Monk/ED sounds interesting but monks lose most benefits if they use Armor(Anything but cloth) or a shield, both things that are typically used to get 10% physical dmg immunities.
Monk would also add third stat(Wisdom) if you wanted AC out of the class, which doesn't really fit the idea of no buffing.
Monks do not get full BA(1 AB/level), they get mid BA(3 AB per 4 levels, split in to 0/1/1/1) so that would bring down the AB.
Monks do get more attacks with monk weapons, so using something like the Naginata(2-handed Str monk weapon) you could exchange AB/AC/Dmg immunity for more attacks/Dmg, but it hardly seems worth it.

PM/ED sounds nice and very defensive, but PM gets even less BA(1AB/2 Levels) and you'd need 3+ levels in caster class(Hexblade, Bard, Sorc, Wizard) to access it. Bringing AB down by atleast 3, which is doable, but makes the builds defense stronger(which is already strong) while making its offense weaker(Which wasn't that strong).
PM would also get some summons that are pretty strong at start but fall of quickly mid to end game without high level investment on both caster class/PM.
And while PM also gains AC, it has been changed to dodge AC which disappear when you get flat-footed so isin't all that reliable. Other PM goodies like immunity to Stun, Hold, Paralyzation, Criticals hits and Sneak Attacks are nice, but only the critical hit immunity here is great. ED becomes immunity to sneak attacks at 5th level aslong as they're in combat too.

About Cavalier and horses: Forget the horse. The class gets some riding stuff, but it's the extra feats/saves vs. Fear and 12 HP per level that is really good about this class.

And even with builds that don't have high AC it's best to try to get it as high as possible, because most attacks made are not at your highest AB anyway. So even if something that's hitting you has 45 AB and 4 attacks what they'll hit you with is 45+d20, 40+d20, 35+d20, 30+d20 so on average the AB of those hits would be 55,45,40,35 and you don't want something to hit you with every hit since they might have dmg type that you can't reduce(Magic/Divine from Divine Smite).

And as far as focusing on gearing for dmg immunity goes, you'll only net 5-10% more on other gear compared to Adamantine gear, which is +3 AC/10% immunity. So I would recommend just balancing those two and not completely forgetting AC.

Barbarian is pretty good without wards, both normal and tribesman, but needs high barbarian levels to stay good end game.
24 Barb/6 ED could be combined for more offensive oriented DR build that's still immune to sneak attacks when fighting.
The CD of rage is 1 turn though, which doesn't make you a complete noodle but takes away lot of the classes abilities for 1 minute after every time your rage ends.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:10 pm

To add further to what Ork said, builds with Ema can also be considered "good without buffs" because EMA is basically infinite and undispellable while it covers almost all ac buffs. So any melee PM builds with ema dont technically use any wards, beyond EMA, animal buffs and the occasional haste. They are also immune to a lot of what is covered by Freedom and mind protection.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:55 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:10 pm
To add further to what Ork said, builds with Ema can also be considered "good without buffs" because EMA is basically infinite and undispellable while it covers almost all ac buffs. So any melee PM builds with ema dont technically use any wards, beyond EMA, animal buffs and the occasional haste. They are also immune to a lot of what is covered by Freedom and mind protection.
You mean Epic Mage Armor I'm assuming?
ZombieDuck wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm
"Completely valid points about AB if you go bard instead of fighter" (paraphrased)
What if this was offset a bit by the stat bonuses of RDD? So a bard/RDD/ED? The net bonus to strength should offset the AB penalty of a 3/4ths class, yes?

(See what I mean about being just good enough at building to be bad at it? :lol: )
Bunnysmack wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:41 pm
"shotgun barbarian"
So then a barbarian/ED would theoretically be a neat option. If you went tribal route, your summons wouldn't get your ED features, sure, but if you went rage route, stacking that DR and grabbing the regen could make you able to stand up to just about anything but scythe weaponmasters, at least long enough for your allies to kill the thing, right?

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:29 pm

KeldonDonovans wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:55 pm
You mean Epic Mage Armor I'm assuming?
Yes.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:27 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:41 pm
The wiki, so I'd better understand shotgun barbarian(again, paraphrased)
So I checked out the wiki a little more thoroughly to better understand. I'm not getting the "reduced cooldown" you mentioned, and in case I misunderstood, I am referring to this:
Bunnysmack wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm
Your main class abilities are all tied to your recharging 0 casting time rage.
The other aspects I'm not really understanding are, from the wiki:
Barbarians get bonus physical damage based on their Constitution score, as long as they are wielding a melee weapon or throwing axes. The bonus damage is equal to the Barbarian's base CON modifier. The first bonus is at level 8 (+1) and the second is at level 16 (+2 total). Every odd epic barbarian level adds an additional +1, to a max of +7 at level 29. This is a passive bonus to damage that is always active, and stacks with the bonus weapon damage from rage.
Bonus is +1 at level 8, but equal to your con modifier? Then +2 at 16, but still equal to con modifier? Then +1 every odd numbered epic level, but still equal to the con modifier? Is that just a cap or something, like "The lower of -base con modifier- or -the specific value listed based on your level-"? So a level 30 barb with 10 con would not get a bonus here, if he had 20 base con, he'd have a +5 bonus, and if he had a 50 con (somehow) he'd add 7?
Epic rage feats are updated as well. Each epic rage feat updates the visual effect of Rage. Epic Rage Feats no longer affects rage tiers.
So it no longer affects rage tiers because it is epic... But what is a rage tier? I'm just seeing rage, greater rage, and epic rage, and since this is one of the tiers, I'm not sure if this just means "congratulations, you are done with the tier thing" or what.

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Bunnysmack » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:53 am

I'll be honest, I had some trouble following your last post but I'll try my best:

1. In the original game, barbarian rage had a certain number of uses per day. In arelith, the way rage works has been almost completely changed, so, instead of a limited number of uses per day, you can use it as much as you want, but when the effect wears off you can't activate it again for a full minute afterward. Unlike many other temporary self-buff abilities in Arelith, this ability is instantaneous to activate. No wait time, no animation delay, it just goes off without delaying your ability to start smashing.

2. I think you understand the passive bonus damage set up correctly, yes. Lower of your scaling bonus barb damage or your base con mod.

3. Rage tier still matters at epics, what THAT is referring to is that there are bonus epic feats you can optionally buy on level-up that add extra bonuses to your rage. Arelith changed what all the those epic feats do, and one of them in the original NWN game very much effected the core stat boosts of rage. Tiers are a separate thing from those optional feats, and what those feats do is also listed in the article in a separate section.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:50 am

Bunnysmack wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:53 am
I'll be honest, I had some trouble following your last post but I'll try my best:
Apologies, sometimes I am not as clear as I would hope.

It seems I misunderstood your first point. I thought you were suggesting that the build you were recommending somehow lowered the rage cooldown from 1 minute to 0 rounds. That's what I was missing. So, to be sure I understand, the cooldown will always be 1 minute, you were just saying most of the cool abilities I get are linked to being in rage (which takes 0 time to use)

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Bunnysmack » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:40 pm

Correct. One button, 0 casting time.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Irongron » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:48 pm

I tend to not bother with many buffs, even when I have them available, especially if in a party. The game is generally pretty easy for the most part, and I just find the endless casting with excessive preparation really quite dull, and then there is the issue on needing to hurry before they wear off.

The adventuring equivalent of going commando, there's a lot to be said for it.

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:08 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:48 pm
I tend to not bother with many buffs, even when I have them available, especially if in a party. The game is generally pretty easy for the most part, and I just find the endless casting with excessive preparation really quite dull, and then there is the issue on needing to hurry before they wear off.

The adventuring equivalent of going commando, there's a lot to be said for it.
See, I'm of the same opinion, thats why I'm trying to figure out a build that works well with that instead of repeatedly making the wrong build xD

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Dalenger » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:26 pm

I suppose I'm confused, are you looking for a build with absolutely zero buffs for the sake of zero buffs or just a build that doesn't take 5 minutes to buff up to full strength? Most melee builds don't require much more build-up than a few hours/level wands and maybe a GMW scroll.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:34 pm

Builds without umd need to refresh their barkskin and zoo buffs every 18 minutes and too often they happen to run out in the middle of combat unless you keep a timer which is just as annoying. I personally play builds which can, at the very least, use zoo wands (be it from umd or from a class). This way, the only thing that isnt 1+ RL hour is Shield potions, which is alright I guess and then I really have no issue spending the time warding properly.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:49 pm

Dalenger wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:26 pm
I suppose I'm confused, are you looking for a build with absolutely zero buffs for the sake of zero buffs or just a build that doesn't take 5 minutes to buff up to full strength? Most melee builds don't require much more build-up than a few hours/level wands and maybe a GMW scroll.
The goal is a build that can at least reasonably hold its own without buffing, even in higher level areas. I understand that there is no purely mundane build that can solo every area in the game, that's not what I am looking for. So basically, as is, builds are optimized around the concept that buffs will be available. I'm trying to figure out a build the opposite way-so that it is designed to be without buffs. Obviously, if you take a purely mundane build and toss a few good buffs on it, they get stronger, but the idea is a character that doesn't revolve around that.

Imagine if the Devs put out today that Arelith will, from this point forward, be a no-magic item server, and even further, anything that could be considered a buff is disabled for PC characters. No casting mage armor. No drinking a potion of cats grace or barkskin. Offensive spells still work (simply because I specified in the beginning it could be a magic attack type character like a warlock). So the idea is that, should that decision be made (it wont be) this character basically... Wouldn't notice. Nothing about his routine would change. The shotgun barbarian mentioned earlier is one good example, as is the Earthkin Defender option. I'm just curious if there are more.

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Dalenger
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Dalenger » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:06 pm

It sounds like you wanna play the old Kensai subclass. There used to be a fighter and monk path which gave perma-haste but prevented you from casting spells or using any magic consumables whatsoever. It was removed cuz it was pretty much deemed a "noob trap", iirc.

TBH, you're probably fine running any normal melee class you want to. ftr/wm/ro is a solid choice and can handle pretty much any area on the server well enough, even without potions or wands. If you want something which'll enable you to solo almost anywhere, shadowdancers are kings of PvE and shouldn't suffer too much without zoo buffs, though you still want might to carry around a greater invis for the extra survivability.
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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by KeldonDonovans » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:11 pm

Dalenger wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:06 pm
It sounds like you wanna play the old Kensai subclass. There used to be a fighter and monk path which gave perma-haste but prevented you from casting spells or using any magic consumables whatsoever. It was removed cuz it was pretty much deemed a "noob trap", iirc.

TBH, you're probably fine running any normal melee class you want to. ftr/wm/ro is a solid choice and can handle pretty much any area on the server well enough, even without potions or wands. If you want something which'll enable you to solo almost anywhere, shadowdancers are kings of PvE and shouldn't suffer too much without zoo buffs, though you still want might to carry around a greater invis for the extra survivability.
I did love Kensai. And I'm fine with the Fighter/WM/Ro playstyle, even if I swapped something in their for shadow dancer (I do love stealth), I just don't know enough about building to know exactly how to build it, every time I try it comes out sub-optimal getting squished by level 9. Hence me asking for build advice here :)

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Re: Buffless wonder

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:34 am

Personally, I think you'd be better served by identifying a playstyle and reading what commonalities people share for these builds. When you constrain your request with a very specific and very untenable build, those that are mechanically minded aren't interested in assisting solely because time and time again players will argue with these individuals about build points they don't really understand.

You're better served overall by curating a list of builds that ascribe to your playstyle and picking/substituting from within. This is how I picked up mechanics. I learned why someone built a character a certain way and tried to identify why it was strong. NWNwiki is your friend as well, as it gives you all the core mechanics and why you might choose to do 12 rogue/4 fighter/4 SD instead of 11 rogur/4fighter/5SD.

As time has gone on, and animosity towards mechanics-minded people have increase, fewer care to educate - especially because most people aren't interested in learning for themselves. They want it this way for this reason and won't be convinced why that might not be ideal.

So, with that said I really suggest looking through the arelith wiki at the builds page. Look at the weaponmaster builds, look at the barbarian builds, and look at the EkD builds. Find out why they did it that way, and if that really is what you want.

I will say that forgoing buffs means your AC is significantly lower than it could be, and because of that you will get squished where other characters excell. Barkskin, shield potions, dex buffs, etc. will improve your survivability considerably.

The first core mechanics to learn really is AC & AB. If you can master how to improve these stats, you'll survive everything Arelith has to offer (sometimes).

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