Best 3-man PvP composition?

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garrbear758
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:43 pm

If a druid is in earth form, they are immune to knockdown, but they have 150% sonic vulnerability. Get rid of their summons, debuff them, and hit them with sonic damage if possible. The physical immunity and 19/- (assuming edr 3) will be trouble for a dexer, but any str or divine melee character should be able to handle them once the summons are gone. They also wont be able to debuff you or get rid of your summons without shifting out of earth form. In addition, they cant get rid of your buffs or summons while polymorphed.

If they're not in earth form, they're knockdown bait due to the lack of discipline.
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:13 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:04 am
The pure 30 druid, though considered to be a stronger than the vastly inferior totem druid monk
I agree the monolithic form is much more versatile, fun, and may be better in PvP, but why would you hold that it is vastly better than totem/monk? Totem monk sits at close to 63-66ac naked and up to 80-82 buffed. There is not a build on the game that can hit the totem buffed and very few that can even with true strike. Even fully debuffed they still are fishing for 20s to be hit by most builds. And their saves are more than 36+ naked with saves up to 44 vs spells so any caster is fishing for 1s to make a spell stick.

Monolithic form in air maxes around 70 buffed and naked it is 58 if I remember right. Still good but we'll within the 16-20 hit range for most attackers. Though they can have EDR3.

So why is totem vastly inferior to moo?

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:12 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:13 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:04 am
The pure 30 druid, though considered to be a stronger than the vastly inferior totem druid monk
I agree the monolithic form is much more versatile, fun, and may be better in PvP, but why would you hold that it is vastly better than totem/monk? Totem monk sits at close to 63-66ac naked and up to 80-82 buffed. There is not a build on the game that can hit the totem buffed and very few that can even with true strike. Even fully debuffed they still are fishing for 20s to be hit by most builds. And their saves are more than 36+ naked with saves up to 44 vs spells so any caster is fishing for 1s to make a spell stick.

Monolithic form in air maxes around 70 buffed and naked it is 58 if I remember right. Still good but we'll within the 16-20 hit range for most attackers. Though they can have EDR3.

So why is totem vastly inferior to moo?
Sorry, i suppose i was just exaggerating popular build community metam totem monk druid isn't vastly inferior. Vastly was very much wrong word.

To be honest, i was more interested in the party of 3 composition discussion

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:14 am

Totem may need a 20 to hit, but they're going to need a 20 to hit anything too, and their damage is terrible. If they're trading blows, anyone with decent damage is going to win over attrition. In a 3 on 3 situation, they can be safely ignored until the other 2 are dead.
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:12 am
To be honest, i was more interested in the party of 3 composition discussion
Very true, it was more a fortuitous timing of topic as a friend if mine suggested 3 totem's as the best group. I had argued against that competition. I main a totem ATM, and though I generally feel as invulnerable as a mountain, I feel about that dangerous too.

But wanted to see hear other validation to my thought on it.

In the same way pure monk seems to have some of the same issues. Their ab and dmg are better, though their ac is significantly lower. But no way to dispel an opponent and very vulnerable to dispels.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:07 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:12 am
To be honest, i was more interested in the party of 3 composition discussion
Very true, it was more a fortuitous timing of topic as a friend if mine suggested 3 totem's as the best group. I had argued against that competition. I main a totem ATM, and though I generally feel as invulnerable as a mountain, I feel about that dangerous too.

But wanted to see hear other validation to my thought on it.

In the same way pure monk seems to have some of the same issues. Their ab and dmg are better, though their ac is significantly lower. But no way to dispel an opponent and very vulnerable to dispels.
You mean pure str monk? Pure dex monk has amazing ab and ac with half decent damage due to monk buffs while also being almost immune to magic.


Honestly a party of 3 lvl 30 bards could take on 3 totem monk druids.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Zaravella » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:04 am

I like the World of Warcraft triumverate setup of dps, tank and healer.... my choices would be:


1) A pure fighter or a cookie cutter fighter/wm/rogue - using twohanded weapon. (damage per second)

2) Monk with high AC, with immunities to spells as well (Tank defense) guarding either the cookie cutter above or the healer below whichever one needs it at the time.

3) A pure cleric, that can heal/buff/ implode
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:09 pm

Zaravella wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:04 am
2) Monk with high AC, with immunities to spells as well (Tank defense) guarding either the cookie cutter above or the healer below whichever one needs it at the time.
-guard doesn't work in PVP.

Though having a tankier Target to draw focus and dive into enemy lines has value.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:11 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:07 pm
BobTheSkull wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:12 am
To be honest, i was more interested in the party of 3 composition discussion
Very true, it was more a fortuitous timing of topic as a friend if mine suggested 3 totem's as the best group. I had argued against that competition. I main a totem ATM, and though I generally feel as invulnerable as a mountain, I feel about that dangerous too.

But wanted to see hear other validation to my thought on it.

In the same way pure monk seems to have some of the same issues. Their ab and dmg are better, though their ac is significantly lower. But no way to dispel an opponent and very vulnerable to dispels.
You mean pure str monk? Pure dex monk has amazing ab and ac with half decent damage due to monk buffs while also being almost immune to magic.


Honestly a party of 3 lvl 30 bards could take on 3 totem monk druids.
I meant dex monk. It's damage is about equal to the totem druid, though it's ab is 5-8 higher. It does beat DR however. It's spell resistance is 50% for pure caster and 80% for hybrid. Though no UMD so on its own the only buffs it gets is via potions. The monk has no way of debuffing.

I think ultimately a monk would win against a totem druid 1 v 1 simply because they both would be fishing for 20s and the monk can heal. Eventually the druid Regen wear off.

Though I disagree on three totem druid vs 3 bards. I'd put money on the druids in that case.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:24 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:11 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:07 pm
BobTheSkull wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 pm


Very true, it was more a fortuitous timing of topic as a friend if mine suggested 3 totem's as the best group. I had argued against that competition. I main a totem ATM, and though I generally feel as invulnerable as a mountain, I feel about that dangerous too.

But wanted to see hear other validation to my thought on it.

In the same way pure monk seems to have some of the same issues. Their ab and dmg are better, though their ac is significantly lower. But no way to dispel an opponent and very vulnerable to dispels.
You mean pure str monk? Pure dex monk has amazing ab and ac with half decent damage due to monk buffs while also being almost immune to magic.


Honestly a party of 3 lvl 30 bards could take on 3 totem monk druids.
I meant dex monk. It's damage is about equal to the totem druid, though it's ab is 5-8 higher. It does beat DR however. It's spell resistance is 50% for pure caster and 80% for hybrid. Though no UMD so on its own the only buffs it gets is via potions. The monk has no way of debuffing.

I think ultimately a monk would win against a totem druid 1 v 1 simply because they both would be fishing for 20s and the monk can heal. Eventually the druid Regen wear off.

Though I disagree on three totem druid vs 3 bards. I'd put money on the druids in that case.

As redudant as 3 bards is, they arnt bad at all, but would require skilled coordination

Totem druids would be forced to eventually unpolymorph to get around full level wounding whispers and other bard buffs. Bards could buff enough to make a rolling for 20s situation eqaul, except a bard could turn that table with bard song, curse song and finally taunt (which will definitely work because of skill buffs/debuffs). If the druids ever unpolymorph, they become potential knockdown bait. Even the monk totem since his unpolymorphed str will be low and again curse song.

Bards are built str based so even in a fishing for 20s battle, wounding whispers would easily force a totem monk to unpolymorph.

Dex base monks can also get better ab and damage via parry. Forcing the druid to not compete in a fishing 20s battle. Also pure dex monk has epic dodge and will straight up win fishing for 20s even without periodically switching parry off and on. If totem monk druid parries just means monk can safely throw Shurikens until regen wears off. Or even use a gonne.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:14 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:24 am

Dex base monks can also get better ab and damage via parry. Forcing the druid to not compete in a fishing 20s battle. Also pure dex monk has epic dodge and will straight up win fishing for 20s even without periodically switching parry off and on. If totem monk druid parries just means monk can safely throw Shurikens until regen wears off. Or even use a gonne.
Does epic Dodge interfere with parry? Can you parry an attack you Dodge?

My understanding is that you can only parry an attack that would have hit you. Further you can only parry the first attack of each flurry. To this, you Dodge the first attack that hits, which should be the first attack if the flurry, so are you not cheating yourself out of both a parry opportunity? As most only have 5-6 apr, and a flurry is 3 apr, you have just reduced your parry chance per turn by half.

I could be wrong on any of the above, the parry mechanic has already confused me.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by godhand- » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:10 am

duergar 24barb/6fighter - up front bruiser, immune to paralyse and with a clarity pot, bigbys - mighty rage for any other form of cc breakfree
* bardpdk (protector) - party support bot, buffs, restores, heals etc. + debuffs
bard/AA/* - high ab ranged dps, highly mobile, - SD is optional but beneficial for HIPS and reposition utility.

the pdk - teamed with the bruiser, allows bruiser to be on ~50% Dammage immunity with gear - your measely scimitar crits are hitting for 10dmg.... + mass haste giving bruiser 6 attacks in rage mode + 50% concealment
AA takes out casters before they have a chance to breath an incantation with +5 or higher arrows
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Dalenger » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:30 am

Hmm, kit basing some of the above:

30 Bard to buff allies and de-buff enemies. After the first 2 rounds they've already done 90% of what they're expected to do in the fight. The massive hit to enemy discipline is the most important thing here. After they've cast their song/cursed song, they can either join the fight and do a little damage maybe or join in trying to keep the WM alive as best they can with kits and spells.

Classic WM build. Knockdown knockdown knockdown!!! With their +2 AB and your -19 discipline, even purpose built disc builds will have a hard time staying on their feet.

30 Healer Cleric with protection domain, maybe? You'd have to kill them before you could kill the WM and killing 30 protection cleric is a pain. The protection can be undispellable and even after that's over (after which the battle is probably already won) they've got g sanc that, while not impossible, is very difficult to dispel. If you're playing to fish for 20s and manage to get a lucky roll, they can call a time out and buff/raise their entire team back up to strength. A perma lifeline and regen on the WM will mean they'll be very difficult to keep down. Summons won't be a huge thing in the fight, but they can pull some pretty nice nasties to add to the frey.

Alternatively, another classic WM build instead of the cleric for bonus damage.

How'd I do?
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:42 pm

The pure bard/wm combo has been standing out.

Though I have always found the hole in it is simply an enemy bard.

Bard song doesn't replace with newest cast. Instead someone effected by song remains so until that song ends.

As such a lvl 1 bard can 100% remove the febuff potential of your level 30, -19 skill bard supply by singing before you do.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Dalenger » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:24 pm

Wouldn't that only work if t
BobTheSkull wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:42 pm
The pure bard/wm combo has been standing out.

Though I have always found the hole in it is simply an enemy bard.

Bard song doesn't replace with newest cast. Instead someone effected by song remains so until that song ends.

As such a lvl 1 bard can 100% remove the febuff potential of your level 30, -19 skill bard supply by singing before you do.
Wouldn't that only work if the lvl 1 bard was friendly to you? If the enemy team has a lvl 1 bard, while that bard can certainly curse song my team it isn't going to stop me from songing them. Or does being curse songed prevent good songs from taking effect?

Either way, it seem like this does nothing but support the necessity of a bard on your team. Both teams bring a lvl 30 bard, they counter each other. The only other way I can think of to counter a bard is to purposefully silence yourself, as silenced creatures don't hear songs.
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Peppermint » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:28 am

The Holy Trinity:

Paladin 27/Rogue 3. Abjurer. A fully-buffed Paladin is far more of a threat than even a Weapon Master. Not only does he hit hard and with high AB (threatening knockdowns), but he applies constant dispel pressure with Holy Sword.

Bard 20/Fighter 6/Paladin 4. The Bardadin may be a significant threat on his own, but he also boosts the Paladin to even greater heights. Cursed enemies will struggle to resist the Paladin's knockdowns or (thanks to decreased UMD) reapply buffs stripped by Holy Sword.

Cleric (Healer) 30. Protection domain. Those paying attention so far will doubtless have noticed that this team requires a lot of wind up time. And that's fine; the Healer enables that. While the Paladin and Bardadin prepare to unleash justice, the Healer holds off opponents with heals and -respite. He also shores up the Bardadin's biggest weakness, rendering him immune to burst.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Dr. B » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:20 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:28 am
The Holy Trinity:

Paladin 27/Rogue 3. Abjurer. A fully-buffed Paladin is far more of a threat than even a Weapon Master. Not only does he hit hard and with high AB (threatening knockdowns), but he applies constant dispel pressure with Holy Sword.

Bard 20/Fighter 6/Paladin 4. The Bardadin may be a significant threat on his own, but he also boosts the Paladin to even greater heights. Cursed enemies will struggle to resist the Paladin's knockdowns or (thanks to decreased UMD) reapply buffs stripped by Holy Sword.

Cleric (Healer) 30. Protection domain. Those paying attention so far will doubtless have noticed that this team requires a lot of wind up time. And that's fine; the Healer enables that. While the Paladin and Bardadin prepare to unleash justice, the Healer holds off opponents with heals and -respite. He also shores up the Bardadin's biggest weakness, rendering him immune to burst.
Is there an unholy trinity?

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Dalenger » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:43 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:28 am
The Holy Trinity:

Paladin 27/Rogue 3. Abjurer. A fully-buffed Paladin is far more of a threat than even a Weapon Master. Not only does he hit hard and with high AB (threatening knockdowns), but he applies constant dispel pressure with Holy Sword.

Bard 20/Fighter 6/Paladin 4. The Bardadin may be a significant threat on his own, but he also boosts the Paladin to even greater heights. Cursed enemies will struggle to resist the Paladin's knockdowns or (thanks to decreased UMD) reapply buffs stripped by Holy Sword.

Cleric (Healer) 30. Protection domain. Those paying attention so far will doubtless have noticed that this team requires a lot of wind up time. And that's fine; the Healer enables that. While the Paladin and Bardadin prepare to unleash justice, the Healer holds off opponents with heals and -respite. He also shores up the Bardadin's biggest weakness, rendering him immune to burst.
Sounds like a solid team, I'd concede paladin>WM. My only hold up would be bardadin vs 30 bard. This squad vs one with a 30 bard are suffering an net -11 disc/taunt/conc hit, and the team with the 30 bard have +11 disc/taunt/conc. Wouldn't this be more significant than any additional DPS the bardadin would bring to the battlefield?

Again, I wonder how often a team would silence themselves to avoid being curse songed. It seems like a half decent counter to a team with a 30 bard, though how you would go about silencing yourself is beyond me. Can silence be potted?
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:13 pm

Dalenger wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:24 pm
Wouldn't that only work if t
BobTheSkull wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:42 pm

Wouldn't that only work if the lvl 1 bard was friendly to you? If the enemy team has a lvl 1 bard, while that bard can certainly curse song my team it isn't going to stop me from songing them. Or does being curse songed prevent good songs from taking effect?
One one song can affect any PC(or NPC) at a time. So if your team has a bard in it and they sing, then you run into the curse bard team, the curse bard can not harm your team. So even a 3 level bard dip team can be immune to your curse song, so long as the bard in singing. (mind you a lvl 3 bard dip's song is not going to last that long but the idea holds)

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Peppermint » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:23 pm

I feel that a pure bard is good, and the skills reduction solid--but overrated.

8 points off of a skill is going to be enough to put most characters into reliable skill fail range. A lot is made of pure bards wrecking all those characters with 70+ discipline, but the simple fact of the matter is that for the most part, characters with more than ~65 discipline do not exist. It's just not efficient to build a character like that.

Bard Song has diminishing returns. In most cases, a Bardadin offers more to a group than a pure bard.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Dalenger » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:05 am

Oh, I was not aware that a friendly song protected you from an enemy song. That certainly changes things up a bit. Yeah, bardadin is probably best in that case-- though now a REALLY important rule in this fight is to make sure your team gets their songs out before the enemy.

While I agree 8 points is enough to disturb most builds, that extra 11 is straight brutal. Though I suppose this a now a null point if the enemy can protect with their own songs-- the actual offensive capabillities of the bard becomes much more important, and in that regard bardadin>>>pure bard any day of the week.

So have we come to an agreement? Anyone looking to challenge team paladin+bardadin+healer?
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Adam Antium » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:54 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:13 pm
Dalenger wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:24 pm
Wouldn't that only work if t
BobTheSkull wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:42 pm

Wouldn't that only work if the lvl 1 bard was friendly to you? If the enemy team has a lvl 1 bard, while that bard can certainly curse song my team it isn't going to stop me from songing them. Or does being curse songed prevent good songs from taking effect?
One one song can affect any PC(or NPC) at a time. So if your team has a bard in it and they sing, then you run into the curse bard team, the curse bard can not harm your team. So even a 3 level bard dip team can be immune to your curse song, so long as the bard in singing. (mind you a lvl 3 bard dip's song is not going to last that long but the idea holds)
That's not the case, I think you might be misreading the wiki entry on Curse Song. Per the NwN wiki, only the bard singing a curse song, is immune to curse song.

You can be bard song'd and curse song'd at the same time. I also tested this just now on the Surface server.

If you are affected by bard song, you can still be curse song'd.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:32 pm

Adam Antium wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:54 am
You can be bard song'd and curse song'd at the same time. I also tested this just now on the Surface server.

If you are affected by bard song, you can still be curse song'd.
Wait, really? Was this changed? I thought this was still at issue, as my old bardadin never got touched by curse song while under song.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Adam Antium » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:49 pm

You probably had already curse song'd so your bard was immune, as I said.

I just tested again. Other players can be Bard Song'd and Curse Song'd. Only a bard who is still singing a curse song, is immune to other bards' curse songs.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Dalenger » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:48 am

Okay, so that makes things more interesting. In this case, I'd like to not completely discount the 30 bard as an alternative for the bardadin... thinking of a battle scenario between the bard and bardadin group (both with an abjur paladin and a healer cleric):

Seeing as both groups require almost the exact same windup time, we'll call that a push and say that neither healer has to use their respite. The battle starts, and neither group has the jump on either. Both bards pop their songs, then their cursed songs. Both clerics pop their protection domain. Both paladins click on each other. At this point, the paladin from the bard group has a +11 disc/conc/taunt and the paladin from the bardadin group has a -11 disc/conc/taunt disadvantage. The paladins start going at each other to the massive advantage of the paladin w/ the pure bard, as they very soon are fully taunted and always knockdowned. Thus, the cleric w/ the bardadin has to use their full attention keeping her paladin alive. The only way the bardadin's group wins is if the bardadin can chase down and kill the enemy bard, then his paladin can -pray and get rid of the curse song. If this happens, the bardadin group wins the match. If the baradin can't kill the bard before the bard's paladin can kill the baradin's paladin, then its game over for team bardadin. This is further complicated by the bard's cleric being able to give him her full attention, seeing as their paladin is kicking Snuggybear in his 1v1.

I'm quite frankly not good enough at pvp to gauge if a bardadin would be able to kill a bard under the full time protection of a healer, not to mention potentially scrolls of g sanc and the like. Literally all the pure bard has to do is stay alive to keep his paladin songed and the enemy curse songed. If I were a betting man, I'd honestly probably bet that team bard beats team bardadin. Does anyone with a bit more pvp experience want to jump in and see how well my analysis goes?
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