Best 3-man PvP composition?

[Adam Antium]

IMO, a bard with 20 levels at least (so that he gets lasting winspiration and the party perpetually has bard song up, so he doesn't have to use it in the midst of/at the beginning of combat, nor does he have to re-use curse song unless someone -pray's), who knows how to Bard (i.e. multiply the force of your party), is mandatory for pvp killsquads. It's simply too good. Bard song at level 20 gives you +5 AC, +2 AB, +3 damage, +3 will, +2 fort/reflex, +8 skills and +28 temp hp, and curse song takes away the same equivalent. That means your party has effectively an advantage of +7 AC, +7 AB, 3/- DR, +3 damage, +2/+3 to saves, +16 on opposed skill checks, and a 56 difference in HP from the entire opposition.

Use the other 10 levels of the build as you see fit, but if you're a party with a high level bard song/curse song and fighting a party that doesn't, you should win, unless your party is absolute trash mechanically/at pvping (no judgement from me there, but we're talking about pvp groups, so...)

[Dalenger]

Having a bard with at least 20 levels isn't in dispute. The question I'm wondering is if bardadin or pure bard is better.

[Adam Antium]

Probably bardadin.

Pure bard requires absurd amounts of perform to get the higher tiers of song, to get the extra skillpoints for bard song/curse song. The bard is otherwise useless due to this. They also can't provide any PDK abilities - bard/pdk is superior to pure bard for a party because they can use rallying cry, final stand, and fear.

A level 20 bard gets +-8 skills, level 30 with 100 perform (is that even attainable on Arelith?) gets +-19. So you would indeed be able to swing skills significantly in favor of your party, but many melee-centric builds get 70+ discipline, so if you get +8 from your friendly bard and -19 from the enemy bard, you still end up with 60+ discipline, which is pretty reliable. The bard/pdk or bardadin also serves as an extra frontliner, the pure bard with 100 perform can do almost nothing because their gear and build is completely dedicated to maximizing perform, while the bardadin or bard/pdk can build for other things including better melee ability.

The only other benefit a 30 bard with 100 perform has is a +-2 AC swing. That's a bit decent, but Vanguard PDK gives a -4 AB/AC to the opposing party, and final stand immobilizes them.

So it's not clear to me that pure 30 bard is in any way better than bardadin or bard/pdk.

[Dalenger]

My thought process is that, unless the bardadin can kill the bard very quickly, the bard's paladin will easily kill the baradin's paladin and turn the match into an unwinnable 3v2. -11 discipline/-11 concentration/-2AC against an opponent with +11 taunt/+2AC doesn't bode well at all. Most builds don't take more than ~65 disc., so unless the baradin's paladin is rocking a discipline in the 70s (which requires certain sacrifices in gear and feats) they'll die pretty fast I'd reckon.

[Peppermint]

You don't focus the pure bard. A pure bard is going to be CON-based and turtle in Improved Expertise. That's a very, very difficult target to kill.

You focus the paladin.

Don't forget that bardadins pump out almost weapon master tier damage. They're easily one of the best offensive classes in the game, with their only significant weakness being vulnerability to burst.

Bards need nerfs. About two points AC off of their song and a halving of their post-16 skill progression would put them in a better spot. That's neither here nor there though.

[Adam Antium]

I've never built a paladin honestly, do they typically take high taunt? Because you're talking about a paladin vs a bardadin and the paladin taunting the bardadin. Paladins don't have many skillpoints. Even with an 11 point swing in the paladin's favor, the bardadin probably has maxxed taunt and concentration, and there are pieces of gear (some of which will go unnamed for FOIG reasons) that boost discipline quite nicely.

You have a pure bard that doesn't do much other than buff the paladin, but the bardadin is his own buffer. That means he gets to, for the comparison, include an extra party member. What if it's a paladin and a turtle-mode pure bard, fighting a cookie cutter WM and a Bardadin? That's not a fight I'd want to see. That paladin's gonna get bone-zoned, and his bard is next.

EDIT: Peppermint's trinity mentioned earlier (it was Peppermint who mentioned it I think) of the Paladin/bardadin/healer seems to win the day here, you're going to fight a paladin, a bardadin who buffs himself and the paladin, and they get enough time to wind up because of the healer.

The pure bard and paladin aren't going to out-muscle a paladin and bardadin, even if the pure bard/paladin also have wind-up time.

[BobTheSkull]

I'm not entirely sure if this is accurate. Simply because knock down isn't a competition between two discipline checks but between one sides discipline check vs the other sides knock down score. That is:

1d20+AB-4+(size modifier) vs discipline check.

Let's assume the average well built WM or Palladian is a 42AB then you have a 1d20+38. So if your discipline check is higher than 58 you are immune.

To this end, of one group is lowering by 19 and the other is rasing by 6 (13) then both could still be immune to the others KD.

Potential discipline: 33+3+10+(9x2)=64 with full stat gear. Add str modifier of say 12 for 76. Even at -19 they still have a 57 with no Bard song boost.

[Adam Antium]

I don't know where 42 for AB came from, but an unbuffed cookie-cutter inspired WM has anywhere from 47-49 based on the specifics of the build. Buffed paladins have more.

True-strike potions are also a thing.

Generally, if you want to basically be IKD immune, conventional wisdom says that 70+ is ideal. 60+ is usually good enough, but you better run from truestrike or you're donion rings. With 70+ discipline you can tank a truestrike from people, not that you should of course.

A level 20 bard raises their party by 8. If you have a 20 bard build sing, and a 30 bard curse song with 100 perform (again, I'm not even sure if that's actually possible on Arelith tbh), you have effectively -11 to your skills, so a 70 discipline becomes 59, and that's dangerous if you're going up against a fully self-buffed paladin, but not undoable. As well, it's effectively 2 against 1 in the Holy Trinity vs Pure Bard/Paladin/Healer trio, since the pure bard is basically a turtle. I would absolutely give the paladin/bardadin the win over the paladin/pure bard, because the bardadin/paladin will just focus on devouring the opposing paladin, and then shred either of the other two non-threat characters.



Lastly, I really need to stress that bard/pdk is superior to pure bard, as far as group buffer/debuffer goes.

Bard/pdk loses a bunch of skillpoints with bard song, but, with vanguard path, gains:


- Rallying Cry for party-wide +1 AB/damage, instantaneous use

- Oath of Wrath for single-target -2 AC and 15% universal damage vulnerability increase, instantaneous use

- PDK Fear for high DC (you can easy get it into the 40's) will save vs fear (saves vs spells don't help, and it bypasses mind immunities) for -4 AC/AB/saves and 20% spell failure

- Final Stand for a SAVELESS 1 round immobilization and a minor group heal


If your goal is to build a character who takes a party, and turns them into demigods, bard/pdk is your baby. Go bard/pdk, build with high INT, and build with maxxed out perform, taunt, and intimidate, throw on intimidate gear, and you will start shitting on everybody. I believe paladins are immune to PDK fear, but they're not immune to all the other stuff, and most builds you're likely to come across will not be immune to fear and not be able to make that will save (especially cookie cutter WM's or anything similar, who have a base will save of nothing)

[BobTheSkull]

Well I now wish I could upvote in these forums. That post was great.

As to the 42 an, it was roughly arbitrary. On the phone on the road. Simply to illustrate the idea that at some point the difference in skill point on curse song could be redundant, thus perhaps a bardadin with better AC and attack might be better. Though I keep discounting the change to true strike potions.

What about instead of pure bard (19) curse song skill debuffer go 27bard/3palladin. That is a (16) skill debuffer plus the saves and Divine shield.

[Adam Antium]

It would be rough. The Bardadin build (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0) takes 6 fighter and 4 paladin so that it can grab all the feats it needs to be an effective meleer, including divine might and divine shield (which can ONLY be taken on Paladin levels, and only after you get turn undead at paladin 3, so if you only have 3 paladin levels you can only take one of them, but not both).


A 27 bard/3 paladin would just be better at turtling, but I don't think it would be a serious front-line threat, especially since it'll need 85 perform to power the level 27 bard song, which is still a massive massive investment.

[ltlukoziuz]

Slight quibble - wasn't there a change that you can take divine feats on other classes now too if you have Pala 3 (or other class which makes you meet the prereq)?

[Adam Antium]

I'm unaware if there was, but that sounds neat. I still wouldn't go 27/3 bard/pally though, need those fighter feats IMO

[BobTheSkull]

Slight quibble - wasn't there a change that you can take divine feats on other classes now too if you have Pala 3 (or other class which makes you meet the prereq)?

Unsure. I know they changed feats to be largely general feats, though you still must meet requirements. This would imply what you say is true though I'd have to test it.

[BobTheSkull]

I'm unaware if there was, but that sounds neat. I still wouldn't go 27/3 bard/pally though, need those fighter feats IMO

Fighter gets you 1 extra feat plus ewspec if taken with 4 levels. This would make you 23 bard with 12 skill debuff. Fair trade? Lose 4 skill debuff for +6 damage?

I'd have to look at end ABs and discipline scores to see if they trade off is worth it, but seems like it.

[BobTheSkull]

Do you have a build for the bard/pdk? My buddy was theory crafting one last night.

[Adam Antium]

I do, but mine uses gold dwarf because dwarves are the superior race.

20 bard
10 PDK


1-12: Bard
13-21: Purple Dragon Knight
22-28: Bard
29: PDK
30: Bard


Gifts: +2 INT, +2 CHA, +6 Perform

Base stats:

STR: 15 (becomes 22 with levelups)
DEX: 10 (becomes 8)
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 16 (18 with INT gift)
CHA: 12 (becomes 14, 16 with CHA gift)


Feats:


1: Curse Song
3: Weapon Focus
6: Skill Focus: Discipline
9: Craft Wand (Alternatively: Extend Spell or rearrange feats for Imp. Crit, I went Craft Wand because I like crafting)
12: Expertise
15: Blind Fight
18: Improved Expertise
21: Epic Weapon Focus
24: Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate)
27: Armor Skin
30: Lasting Winspiration



Skillpoints:

int modifier = 4

level 1 bard = (4+3)*4 = 32
19 levels of bard = 152
10 levels of PDK = 60

Total: 244

30 tumble (Bard)
33 umd (Bard)
33 perform (Bard)
31 spellcraft (Bard)
1 Open Lock (Bard)
1 Disable Trap (Bard)
30 taunt (Bard)
2 Appraise (Bard)
2 Persuade (Bard) (it's fun to acknowledge your character as actually being a manipulator of others)
33 discipline (Both)
16 heal (Both)
32 intimidate (PDK)




AB:
17 (pre-epic)
5 (epic)
4 (Weapon enchantment)
3 (weapon focus, epic weapon focus)
12 (STR)
2 (bard song)
___________________________________________________________
43 AB with bard song (45 with War Cry)



AC:
10 (base)
9 (Runic Ranger's Leathers, you can wear these with UMD)
6 (addy tower shield)
4 (shield wand)
6 (tumble)
5 (bard song)
4 (haste)
2 (Armor Skin)
1 (dodge boots)
4 (barkskin)
2 (DEX, buffed)
1 (mage armor)
______________________________________________________
54 with bard song/haste/barkskin/mage armor/shield (64 in imp. expertise)




Your power doesn't come from being the best melee ever, it comes from being able to absolutely bone-zone opposing parties or monsters, and heavily buffing your own party. Throw UMD on some gear and you can reasonably get up to 55-56 UMD which unlocks some cool gear options, too.

With the proper amount of intimidate on your gear, you can get 49 DC on PDK fear, and curse song gives enemies -3 to will, so if you curse song -> PDK fear, it's a DC 52 will save, which spellcraft and other saves vs spells doesn't help against, and which mind blank/clarity doesn't protect against.

Have fun being the life of the party!

[Dalenger]

Would the bard/pdk trump the bardadin, then? Or would the offensive output from the bardadin be just too important.

Also, does anyone have the build for the 27/3 paladin/rogue laying around? I understand the reason behind 27 paladin (protection against dispel) but I wonder what is lost by not following the normal 23/4/3 paladin/fighter/rogue build.

[Adam Antium]

As far as trumping Bardadin, it depends on context.

Is it better at party buffing than Bardadin? Unquestionably, also better at debuffing the opposition.

Would it win 1v1 with Bardadin? I have no clue. Perhaps not, since Bardadin is immune to fear.

Would the team of Paladin, Bard/PDK, and Healer, beat the team of Paladin, Bardadin, and Healer? Probably not, because both Paladin and Bardadin are immune to fear, which is a major, major focus of the bard/pdk build I just posted.

Does that bard/pdk devour cookie cutter WM's for breakfast? Yup.

[BobTheSkull]

The Paladin dispel from holy sword. I know arelith modified it to be CL cap of 20. Is that still a d20+20 or is it just flat 20? if it is flat 20 it is worthless if it is d20+ i could see its potential value, maybe.

Dispel Magic
To remove an effect, the caster makes a dispel check of 1d20 +1 per caster level (to a maximum of +10) against a DC of 11 12 + the spell effect's caster level.

Holy Sword: Not restricted. The On-Hit Dispel effect is now capped at CL 20. If the caster has Abjuration Foci, the Dispel check improves by +1 per focus feat. (This may be changed: CoT levels stack with Paladin levels for determining the caster level of this spell).

This means that the max dispel you can get with Holy sword is 40, up to 42 with grt abjuration focus. Where as a lvl 30 bard (to continue the current discussion) would have a check of 12+30 = 42 and be immune to even an abjuration focused paladin.

[BobTheSkull]

PDK fear, it's a DC 52 will save, which spellcraft and other saves vs spells doesn't help against, and which mind blank/clarity doesn't protect against.

What kind of fear is it? I know arelith changed fear to be -AB/spell failure for most but left some fears as the "run around like a headless chicken" do you know which the PDK fear is?

[Adam Antium]

PDK fear, it's a DC 52 will save, which spellcraft and other saves vs spells doesn't help against, and which mind blank/clarity doesn't protect against.

What kind of fear is it? I know arelith changed fear to be -AB/spell failure for most but left some fears as the "run around like a headless chicken" do you know which the PDK fear is?

http://wiki.arelith.com/(Purple_Dragon)_Knight

It does not cause you to run around.

[BobTheSkull]

I saw that, but still unsure as I forget which one (maybe warlock?) Fear still makes you run like a fool.

So when it doesn't specify I'm always nervous.

Also when you read the fear description it says:

Nearby enemies must make a Will save versus Fear. The DC of this save is 15 + Knight Class Levels + Intimidate / 3. Enemies who fail this saving throw suffer a -1 penalty, improving to -2 at 8 Knight levels, to AC, AB, and Saving Throws, and a 5% Spell Failure chance per 4 Knight levels. The minimum penalty is -1. Mind-protecting spells do not block this effect. Being attacked while casting Fear will not trigger any Concentration checks.

You can only have 10 levels of pdk so why say it increases every 4, and not just the 2 step increase? But the max debuf is -4 AB/AC/saves and 20% spell failure with vanguard right?

[Adam Antium]

Yes, that is the max debuff.

[BobTheSkull]

You focus the paladin.

Paladin dispel from holy sword. I know arelith modified it to be CL cap of 20. Is that still a d20+20 or is it just flat 20? if it is flat 20 it is worthless if it is d20+ i could see its potential value, maybe.
Dispel Magic
To remove an effect, the caster makes a dispel check of 1d20 +1 per caster level (to a maximum of +10) against a DC of 11 12 + the spell effect's caster level.
Holy Sword: Not restricted. The On-Hit Dispel effect is now capped at CL 20. If the caster has Abjuration Foci, the Dispel check improves by +1 per focus feat. (This may be changed: CoT levels stack with Paladin levels for determining the caster level of this spell).
This means that the max dispel you can get with Holy sword is 40, up to 42 with grt abjuration focus. Where as a lvl 30 bard (to continue the current discussion) would have a check of 12+30 = 42 and be immune to even an abjuration focused paladin.

Any ideas on the dispel?