(PVP) Weapon Choices and You

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garrbear758
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(PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:05 am

If you just want to see the math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

So, the general rule of thumb for weapons has been that high threat range weapons such as scimitar/rapier are better for low AC enemies, and high crit damage weapons such as battleaxe are better for high AC enemies. This is very vague and non-descriptive, so I did some math to determine where exactly this divide occurs.

To calculate this, I assumed a keened masterly damask longsword, battleaxe, and scimitar. These were chosen because 1. They're all martial. 2. They have 3 different threat ranges. 3. Battleaxe has a high crit multiplier.

Note: I will use scimitar and battleaxe just as examples below. They are interchangeable with any high threat range or high multiplier weapon.

Here's what I've learned that is useful:

AC < AB+15: Scimitar will do the most damage. Battleaxe and longsword are tied.
AC = AB+15: All three weapons will do the same damage.
AC > AB+15: Battleaxe will do the most damage, followed by longsword which very slightly edges out scimitar solely due to base damage.

Note: These numbers were calculated per attack. At the bottom of the spreadsheet, I include calculations at 4 attacks per round with normal AB scaling. The same results occur, except the transition from scimitar to battleaxe occurs between 5 and 10 AC > Ab. The difference in average damage is very minimal in this the 5-10 AC > AB range for 4 attacks, and increases substantially the higher or lower the AC is.

Therefore, the scimitar is the best weapon to use if you are fighting an opponent with an AC < AB+15. The battleaxe is better against AC > AB+15. Due to the weapon focus groups, it is best to carry one of each. The longsword style (19-20 x2) is generally not recommended unless you are going for a specific weapon that fits well with your build, such as a blade of elements on a paladin or ranger (which still isn't a great pvp weapon, but you get the point).

How is this useful?
-If you have a low AB (< about 45), you are best off going for a weapon with a high crit multiplier in all circumstances, as it is likely that your enemy AC >15+AB.
-If you have an extremely high AB (looking at you divine champions), use a scimitar.
-If you are spamming true strike potions, use a scimitar.

Assuming you have around 45-50 AB, you can choose to use either weapon based on what you're fighting:
-Monks, Paladins, Blackguards, and Bards will most likely be between 58 and 65 AC before expertise. This makes a battleaxe or similar most effective against them.
-WMs, Barbarians, and Rangers will most likely be in the low 50s before expertise. Use a scimitar unless you expect them to be sitting in improved expertise, at which point a battleaxe is more effective.
-Dexers can vary pretty widely, so generally, use a scimitar if they are dual wielding, and a battleaxe if they have a shield, or cast divine shield or bard song. I am not sure how much epic dodge will play into this, so if someone else wants to do that math that would be fantastic.
-If you are planning to use improved expertise, dropping your AB to 35-40, always use a battleaxe.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:07 am

Thank you for the summery. I recall seeing one of those calculations before. The author calculated E.dodge by basically extracting 5 bab from all attacks and dropping the last attack entirely. It seems right but I'm not entirely sure.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:14 am

Epic dodge would drop the first attack not last, but otherwise yes. I can add it in later, but It should just skew towards high multiplier weapons.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:44 am

Dropping 5 ab and excluding the last attack is the same as excluding the first attack when it comes to adjusting AB for Epic Dodge, you are both correct.

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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:02 am

Oops. Thanks. I misread AstralUniverses post. I missed the -5 ab part.
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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by Kenji » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:55 am

Here are all the averages I've calculated in the past (a year or so ago). They are messy but I've tried to make it as readable as possible. Some of them are outdated, namely the monk damages. I don't think I'll have time to update any of these, but I will permit whoever wishes to use these (if you can!) and summarize whatever it is out there. Mainly the Monk and the new weapons need updating and adding.

They are binned into the following:
Generic Melee
Weapon Master (Melee)
Ranged
Monk

I've personally played with the numbers on the light green part with relative AC to AB from -15 to +20 and here are the results:
  • Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe (Any 19-20 / 2x vs 20 / 3x in general) will behave the same until the following AC range:
    AC > AB from 1 to 20 where Dwarven Waraxe will be a smidgen better (ranges from 0.1 average to 1 average damage higher), but not by much.
    Essentially, their averages are the same. But in localized tests, players might experience more consistent crits for 19-20 threat range while the 20 threat range for 3x crit will feel more bursty. This is only true for non-WMs
    Reference Link
  • For Two-Handed melee weapons, Tridents are the best weapon for most generic and weapon master builds if I remembered correctly. The exceptions might be Orog Great Sword
  • For 1-H weapon masters, scimitars and rapiers will likely outperform most other weapons except racial weapons that offer an extra AB.
The reason why they are grossly simplified is that, well, there are many builds, many weapons, and many different combinations.

We also have to take EDR builds (mostly dedicated Barbarians) into account, which will play into APR. EDR builds are highly effective vs monk builds but not as much vs 2-handers, for example.

With Epic Dodge taken into account, monks and their high APR will be at an advantage, seeing as their attacks are made at a consecutive -3 per attack rather than -5. The downside is that most, if not all, monk UBAB weapons have terrible base threat range and low damage base, which is warranted.

It is also one thing to deal damage, but also another to approach PvP scenarios. Do we want an opponent alive and taken in rather than bashed to death? While it is unlikely, the -subdue command is available to one of the aesthetically pleasing and versatile weapons such as Halberd. (Of course, one can always kill and then res at an altar given both players' consents)

TL;DR:
Go Scimitar/Rapier for any generic 1-hander
Go Trident for any generic 2-hander
Go racial weapon when available (Dwarven Rune Axe, Orog Swords, Hin Dale Sword, etc.)
Ranged should go bows early game and then crossbows late game for non-AAs. Slings are for high AC ranged builds such as Harper Paragons, Clerics, or Halflings.
Monks or dual-wielders or both (rangers that dip monk) would depend on race size and what fits best for their class. The choices are often limited, however.
Last edited by Kenji on Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:09 am

I looked at some of the spreadsheets above. High AC calculations take 58 AC as a high AC. While it is high, any standard melee build can do more than that in improved expertise. This is particularly important as high crit range weapons lose much of their appeal the higher the difference is between AB and AC.

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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by Kenji » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:12 am

Soon as the opponent turn on Improved Expertise, you would have most likely won the battle already. Unless it's a Champion or high Bard build.

The spreadsheets can easily be modified with higher numbers if you'd like. Copy and paste to your own google account and modify the light green part, everything else will change accordingly. It's the power of the spreadsheet: massive data all at once.

The downside is it's harder to do a loop for repeated results. But modification to different parameters is easy.

I've been meaning to make a chart or a graph of some sort, but I think I'll leave that to some of the more curious folks to do the grunt work. Number crunchers before me have done the same, more in the future will do, as well, I imagine.

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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:36 am

Kenji wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:12 am
Soon as the opponent turn on Improved Expertise, you would have most likely won the battle already.
If you have a mirror match and you are both hitting on 17+ for example, logic dictates that higher multiplier wins.
This seems to indicate that when using weapons with a higher multiplier you should actually turn on Improved Expertise to have a better chance of winning. The question is at which difference between AC and AB one starts to outperform the other.

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Re: (PVP) Weapon Choices and You

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:37 am

Thanks for adding Kenji! I would definitely agree that for 1h Weapon Masters scimitar is the best choice, but the whole point of this is for other classes which can take advantage of the weapon groupings if you know who you're going to be fighting and choose a weapon accordingly.

I edited one of your sheets to directly compare scimitar and battleaxe, and got the same results that battleaxe will outdamage scimitar when AC is high. Interestingly, it occurs at AC=AB+14 for keen weapons, but not until AC=AB+17 for non-keen. The gap will be smaller on a dwarven waraxe, but I wanted to compare martial weapons rather than throw a feat in.

Also, your excel skills are significantly better than mine.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
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