My Barbarian / Fighter / Rogue

[a shrouded figure]

I'm actually really pleased with how this one turned out... it's relatively incredible in my humble opinion. Places that im unsure about would be ESF Lore vs ESF Disc and Toughness vs Imp Critical

Dwarf
Non Lawful
Gift of STR
Gift of CON
Gift of Spot (Or Hardiness)

Starting Stats:
STR: 17 (19) -> 25
DEX: 9
CON: 18 (20) -> 21
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6

20 Barbarian / 6 Fighter / 4 Rogue

1-3 Rogue : Expertise, Weapon Focus

4-20 Barbarian : +5 STR, ( 24 / 20) Weapon Focus, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Toughness, Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, Blind Fight

- Feel Free to replace toughness with Improved Critical if you want that instead (I built it using Dwarven Waraxe so the improved critical wasn't as appealing).

21-23 Fighter : Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin

24 Barbarian : +1 STR, (25/20) , Terrifying Rage - Requires 25 intimidate so make sure you've done that.

25-26 Fighter : Weapon Specialization

27 Barbarian : Thundering Rage

28 Fighter : +1 CON, (25/21), Epic Weapon Specialization

29 Rogue : Tumble Dump

30 Barbarian : Mighty Rage


In the end we're looking at:

504 Base HP, 24 BAB, Level 20 Rage, Terrifying Rage (fear aura), Thundering Rage (+1 APR), Mighty Rage (Removes CC + 1 turn duration to Rage for a total Rage duration of 2d4 + 15 rounds [base]).

All gear can be dumped into STR / CON pretty easily for simple gearing, Access to a +4 weapon thru the Runic Waraxe (versatile weapon, can be 2h'd for additional +damage but I am unaware if the rage bonus converts to 2h damage when -twohanding a Dwaraxe, I doubt it)

Base Skills:
33 (50) Disc, 33 (32) Heal, 33 (31) Intimidate, 33 (37) Lore, 33 (31) Taunt, 30 (29) Tumble, 19 Extra -- I picked up a bunch of extra skill points by moving 1-3 to rogue for the level 1 bonus vs. taking rogue from 18-20.

I believe this guy will be a true monster in PVE and PVP. Let me know what you think!

[a shrouded figure]

I’m going to investigate a half-orc improves two weapon version but there’s some serious sacrifices to get 8 apr + 5% more damage reduction instead of 6 apr.

Half Orc
Non Lawful
Gift of STR
Gift of CON
Gift of Spot (Or Hardiness)

Starting Stats:
STR: 16 (20) -> 25
DEX: 8
CON: 16 (18) -> 21
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6

20 Barbarian / 6 Fighter / 4 Rogue

1-17 Barbarian : +4 STR, (24/ 18) Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Knockdown (or improved critical). I'd lean towards knockdown if you're going double axe, improved critical for two-bladed sword

18-20 Rogue : +1 Con (24 / 19) Blind Fight

21-23 Fighter : Great Strength (25/19), Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin

24 Barbarian : +1 Con, (25/20) , Terrifying Rage - Requires 25 intimidate so make sure you've done that.

25-26 Fighter : Weapon Specialization

27 Barbarian : Thundering Rage

28 Fighter : +1 CON, (25/21), Epic Weapon Specialization

29 Rogue : Tumble Dump

30 Barbarian : Mighty Rage


Major losses on this build would be the obvious loss of Knockdown / Improved Knockdown (you could substitute expertise, but with the lack of shield you're already going to be HURTING for AC) as well as you'll no longer have access to ESF: Discipline (but i've heard mixed reviews as to if that's necessary).

Obvious bonus to this route would be +5% physical immunity as well as the two extra attacks from using a double weapon.

I dont know if the 5% immunity stacks with the 10% from barbarian rage - someone will have to confirm that. I think if it did NOT stack, that would be a pretty severe penalty for going two-weapon fighting.

** just noticed that I’m missing exotic weapon on the half-orc... poor guy is really hurting for feats. I may just need to completely re-work this one. I’m guessing he doesn’t get mighty rage and will need to take 10 Fighter/4 rogue/16 barbarian

[a shrouded figure]

It’s also fair to note that with the dwarven rune shield there’s probably another check mark on the side of the dwarven version, unless you’re just really all about that 8 apr. Duergar would also be an excellent choice, betting you the same bonuses as a dwarf but with poison and paralysis immunity (at the cost of two charisma)

[a shrouded figure]

I’ve been looking at this more, and it may be worth dumping ESF and 1 fighter level to get Barbarian 21 (-3’s vs -2’s on Terrifying Rage) but one could also argue that it doesn’t matter. I do like the looks of 16/10/4 for what it offers in additional feats, but the idea of 2+ minute rages is pretty appealing so maybe there’s nothing to fix.

[garrbear758]

Mighty rage isn't worth it, and you're ending on an odd strength and con. Unless you're pursuing a specific feat or spell level, you want to end your stats on even numbers as odd point values do nothing for you. You'd be much better off leaving Con at 18 and putting everything into strength.

You're also taking rogue preepic which is going to lower your ab. You're better off taking rogue at 25-27 or 27-29.

Finally, and this one is arguable, but ESF discipline is just not worth it on a strength build.

[a shrouded figure]

100% agreed on the odd str odd con, but this is literally the only way without great feats to achieve mighty rage and thundering rage while maintaining enough int for expertise***. My thought is that if you’re spending 2 epic Barb feats to improve your rage, doubling the duration is worth it.

**pre epic rogue is required to achieve all three barbarian feats AND a 30 tumble score

***unless Arelith changed might requirement from 21/21

[Arigard]

Mighty rage is definitely worth it. Your bread and butter is your rage, you want it extended and you also want to have another way to be able to break out of anything CC/negative effects etc.

[a shrouded figure]

An extra get out of jail free card really isn’t shabby. Let’s you pray off the first cc and then surprise rage off the second for some smack down.

[garrbear758]

Mighty rage is nice, but you're giving up too much for it. It isn't worth the investment unless you can make it work to end on 26 str and 22 con without dropping int below 14, which afaik isnt possible unless you're a minotaur or firbolg.

Also, if you're building for 21+ con you should absolutely be fitting edr in

[Archnon]

An extra get out of jail free card really isn’t shabby. Let’s you pray off the first cc and then surprise rage off the second for some smack down.

The problem is that, most of the time you want to rage at the start of the fight. Especially with terrifying and thundering. Then you are stripping nothing and you have roughly 2-3 minutes before you can debuff again meaning whatever they slap you with in that time is gonna stick until the start of the next fight.

[a shrouded figure]

Mighty rage is nice, but you're giving up too much for it. It isn't worth the investment unless you can make it work to end on 26 str and 22 con without dropping int below 14, which afaik isnt possible unless you're a minotaur or firbolg.

Also, if you're building for 21+ con you should absolutely be fitting edr in

Sadly you can’t really fit full EDR, you could take one point in lieu of ESF, and maybe 1 point in lieu of armor skin, but going for 3 points you lose EWF which I’m a little suspect of... an extra 9/- damage reduction is really nice, but you start impacting general utility in my opinion. I’ll do some playing around and see what I can come up with. From what I can tell firbolg or Minotaur would work for the 26/22 - but I dont have a major reward so they’re out hehe. Doing 21/6/3 could work especially well as an EDR 2-handing Minotaur... that would be super fun.

Any DM want to gift me a Minotaur!? Lol

Just kidding- 26/22 w/ all three epic rage feats really isn’t possible...

[a shrouded figure]

You could actually sacrifice WS and EWS (-6 damage) to pick up EDR 3 pretty easily. Could be some merit there.



Epics would look like:

21-23 fighter: Great Strength, EWF, EDR1

24 barbarian: thundering rage
25-26 fighter: EDR2
27 barbarian: Terrifying rage
28 fighter: EDR3
29 rogue: tumble dump
30 barbarian: mighty rage

Final stats would be 26/21, you’d be getting:

9/- at the cost of -6 damage and -2 AC. I’m assuming both scenarios of just taking great STR over ESF discipline

With EDR you’re looking at a static 13/- DR which is pretty solid on 474 base HP

I’m not convinced the 9/- is worth the 6 dmg from Specialization... granted you’re getting +7 dmg from rage for ~66% of the time but... yikes. Seems like we swung from oh damn that’s some DPS to pretending to build a DR tank.

[a shrouded figure]

One potential option would be to dump mighty rage in favor of two great strengths and 1 natural STR to finish the build at 28str 20con, nets two AB and two damage...

Cost would be ESF discipline and mighty rage. I still think that there’s merit to ESF disc (who wants to be knocked down anyway). As for mighty rage...

It is a bit of a double edged sword. It offers an extended up time on your rage from 2-8 + 11 rounds to 2-8 + 21 rounds. Or an average of 16 rounds to an average of 26 rounds. The downside being that 26 rounds is going to definitely outlast your temporary HP, so you’ll be 36 rounds (~3.5 min) in between refreshes on that. On the other hand you get additional up time (38% more) on +5 damage, +8 Will saves, and 10% physical damage immunity.

I’m only counting 5/7 of the damage bonus and I’m not counting the +2 rage AB because you’d lose that by taking mighty (-3 STR). I know that this isn’t exactly correct because those bonus’ are a 100% up time which swings me a bit more in favor of dropping mighty rage.

I think I’m going to build this one as 26/21 with mighty because I already took 1-3 as rogue levels. In the future I would probably opt to go with a more classic 21/6/3 to get the +1 con damage from odd epic level (along with better terrifying). As that build only takes 2 epic barbarian feats it can afford to have 8 non barbarian epic levels.

The only thing I don’t like is losing 1 epic feat (fighter 1). I don’t feel a lot of need for pre-epic feats on this character, I wonder if a barbarian without terrifying rage would just be a waste...

[Wuthering]

Terrifying Rage is very useful and Thundering Rage is great if you can get it. I don't think Mighty Rage is very good, in fact you may be better off without it. More frequent raging (with HP refresh and that burst of quick movement each time) is probably better overall than longer lasting rages. In PVE it's a huge quality of life boost, in PVP I think barbarian is a class that wins if they can get a ton of burst damage in ASAP-- and if they don't, I think being able to burst twice in the same fight is going to be more advantageous than having your rage bonus extended.

Maybe I'm wrong and someone who's played a lot of barbarians extensively can take me to school though.

[a shrouded figure]

Terrifying Rage is very useful and Thundering Rage is great if you can get it. I don't think Mighty Rage is very good, in fact you may be better off without it. More frequent raging (with HP refresh and that burst of quick movement each time) is probably better overall than longer lasting rages. In PVE it's a huge quality of life boost, in PVP I think barbarian is a class that wins if they can get a ton of burst damage in ASAP-- and if they don't, I think being able to burst twice in the same fight is going to be more advantageous than having your rage bonus extended.

Maybe I'm wrong and someone who's played a lot of barbarians extensively can take me to school though.

That sums up the conundrum perfectly. I can definitely see where you’d prefer to be able to rage more often (click it more) vs be raged more often. If mighty was a 3 round cooldown reduction vs a 10 round duration extension I think it would be a no brained 100% worth taking.

I’d argue that it’s still a guaranteed increase in DPR over the long run, but the costs are certainly real.